Black economy/ fake goods/ dole cheats & reporting

GullibleOne

pow wow wrote: »

There's a 'report suspected fraud' function on their website and your own details are not one of the required fields.

but surely they could trace you if they wanted

srsly78

GullibleOne wrote: »

but surely they could trace you if they wanted

They would need a warrant etc. Why would they even bother?

later12

srsly78 wrote: »

Yes when cash is involved fraud is easy, but not all self-employed people have cash businesses. I'm self-employed and there is no cash in involved at all, everything leaves an electronic trail.

I gave one example of cash fraud; but as you surely have come across, there are many more opportunities for fraud. E.g. Revenue brought in a system last year where you can just take a photograph of your receipt for expenses, instead of having to keep receipts. I'd suggest that is something that is easily doctored and reasonably vulnerable to fraud, as indeed are expenses generally.

My point is not to criticise small businesses and the self employed; why would I, my income depended on such a business over the past few months. I'm just saying that it opened my eyes to how easy it is to commit fraud in enterprise, and I assume most of us agree that the bulk of the estimated €20 billion black economy relates to enterprises failing to meet their obligations or operate in accordance with (an admittedly, at times, demanding) tax code and not social welfare claimants.

Therefore I can never understand why the focus immediately shifts to the poorest in society when this topic arises.

srsly78

What receipts are you talking about? Unvouched expenses for the win

Regarding the "focus", maybe because some people contribute to the system and others don't?

later12

srsly78 wrote: »

What receipts are you talking about? Unvouched expenses for the win

Regarding the "focus", maybe because some people contribute to the system and others don't?

But of course they do; social welfare income is taxable, we just have a principle that if your income is so terrifically low, you won't be forced to contribute in that sense.

You will still be asked to pay consumption (e.g. VAT) and wealth taxes (e.g. property tax) - which is paid as a disproportionate amount of their income relative to higher earners. Saying they contribute nothing is misleading.

GullibleOne

srsly78 wrote: »

They would need a warrant etc. Why would they even bother?

true but technically they could which may put people off. nmaybe i will have a look and report a few myself. an afternon reporting cheats could be very relaxing:D:D

srsly78

@later12: This is a fallacy, to follow your logic we could have everyone in the country on the dole - and they would be pumping money into the economy. This is not the case, as it's just the government giving out money with one hand, and taking it back with other. No net gain, rather a net loss because people spend money on imports. Same story with public sector taxes, but at least they actually work.

Ray Palmer

Mince Pie wrote: »

Just for the record with regards the woman selling a few cakes down at a market. I was talking to a friend who does it and wants to go legit. She's doing a course for business start up etc. Problem is not that she doesn't want to declare it, it's that the system makes it almost impossible for a small enterprise to get started.
In order for it to be legit she would have to get planning permission from the council to use her home as a business and then would be stung for business rates and all the other lovely charges that go with it in order to sell a few cakes to make 30-50 euro for 3 days work (baking for a day or two then manning the stall). Most markets are one to two days at the weekend.
So in that instance what the hell do you do? Oh yeah, report them! :rolleyes:

It is very easy to set up a business.
It is also very easy to set up a money generating venture that takes money away from somebody doing things legit. Two cake stands and one is legit with all overheads and safety standards. The other has lower overheads no safety standards and takes business away from the legit.
If I was the legit stall I'd report them. The same goes for the newspaper seller
There is also the fact the dole is based on being available for work and if you aren't you are lying every time you sign on.
So the nice person just making a bit on the side is directly impacting on others. The same goes for nixers taking business away from others.
You don't seem to get the harm and how unfair it is. It isn't harmless.

Say if your friend makes cakes with nuts and doesn't separate cooking properly. Kills somebody with nut allergy? No insurance for the family. Being legit is more than taxes.

cris210580

now to be honest everybody would do it for some extra quid.....
everybody is shouting"report the fraud,report the black job market" but at the end of the day if you,you and you would have the oportunity to do it will do it becouse is in the human nature to try and get our life as simple as possible
so conclusion here...WE ARE SO IPOCRITS WHEN WE POINT TO SOMEBODY ELSE...
and if u report somebody this doesnt mean the entire fraud system will stop...somebody else next minute will do the same..and that somebody could be you if u had the ocasion.....

later12

srsly78 wrote: »

@later12: This is a fallacy, to follow your logic we could have everyone in the country on the dole - and they would be pumping money into the economy.

Eh? I'm saying they pay taxes, not that they are pumping money into the economy; the two things are polar opposites.

K-9

Ray Palmer wrote: »

This has to be one of the laziest and ridiculous statements used by people when people complain about the government.
It seems if anybody actually has opinion about social welfare it is rolled out. I saw it brought out on a homeless report by charity.

It suggests the government is actually setting people against each other to be able to get something past the public. Lets be clear it is our government not a royal appointment. They are not the enemy they are our own representative.

This belief is a hang up from when we were ruled by Britain. You cheat sw, tax etc... You are cheating your fellow citizens. If you ever want to be proud to be Irish do your civic duty.

Divide and conquer applies to those who want to seperate us from our elected government rather than pull together.

If the system is broken fix it don't stand around complaining.

The moaning in this country is the most likely thing to make me leave not taxes.

Its a bit self perpetuating too. If the general view is fraud is ok well generally politicians are going to be the same. Maybe it suits some to have an ould moan about the politicians while having no problem with fraud.

srsly78

later12 wrote: »

Eh? I'm saying they pay taxes, not that they are pumping money into the economy; the two things are polar opposites.

So you agree that the taxes they pay do not contribute?

Momento Mori

You have to be a particular type of *sshole to report a person for helping aunt Mary selling a few buns at the Christmas market.

Seriously. People that are unemployed may get this one opportunity a year to make some extra cash so that they can give their loved
ones a better Christmas. How can you sleep at night knowing that you prevented that from happening?

keithclancy

Momento Mori wrote: »

You have to be a particular type of *sshole to report a person for helping aunt Mary selling a few buns at the Christmas market.

Seriously. People that are unemployed may get this one opportunity a year to make some extra cash so that they can give their loved
ones a better Christmas. How can you sleep at night knowing that you prevented that from happening?

And how do you know that mary didn't make the buns in her cockroach invested kitchen while she had cats walking all over the place ?

StudentDad

I would not report someone for having an off the books little sideline. I don't know their circumstances. I don't work for the State. When I see those in positions of power and influence take their noses out of the trough, maybe then I'll reconsider my stance.

SD

kippy

StudentDad wrote: »

I would not report someone for having an off the books little sideline. I don't know their circumstances. I don't work for the State. When I see those in positions of power and influence take their noses out of the trough, maybe then I'll reconsider my stance.

SD

That's the type of attitude I have spoken about in other posts and indicative of the major issues this country faces.
I can understand your stance to be honest and can see why you and many more feel that way.

You only have to look at the examples given by elected representatives and indeed those in highly paid jobs to see why people "on the ground" including those considering a life of petty crime, may make a decision to go down that route.
When you see guys like Callally, Bertie, etc as well as those who have failed this country yet walk away with major handshakes and those who promised so much when taking over the reigns deliver so little, the head does drop.

It doesnt make it right, mind.

K-9

later12 wrote: »

But of course they do; social welfare income is taxable, we just have a principle that if your income is so terrifically low, you won't be forced to contribute in that sense.

You will still be asked to pay consumption (e.g. VAT) and wealth taxes (e.g. property tax) - which is paid as a disproportionate amount of their income relative to higher earners. Saying they contribute nothing is misleading.

Only Benefit payments are taxable, the dole isn't.

joydivision

kippy wrote: »

That's the type of attitude I have spoken about in other posts and indicative of the major issues this country faces.
I can understand your stance to be honest and can see why you and many more feel that way.

You only have to look at the examples given by elected representatives and indeed those in highly paid jobs to see why people "on the ground" including those considering a life of petty crime, may make a decision to go down that route.
When you see guys like Callally, Bertie, etc as well as those who have failed this country yet walk away with major handshakes and those who promised so much when taking over the reigns deliver so little, the head does drop.

It doesnt make it right, mind.

Theres a gang of big pigs sat in the dail and in fancy offices around the country with their nose in the trough 24 /7 . And you wanna begrudge someone that picks up a few crumbs to put a smile on their kids face .
Oh a big cakeshop is missing out because mary sold five jam doughnuts on a stall in the market .
Have you got a copy of the cakeshops accounts ? Are you sure everything there is above board .
Whatll the cakeshop owner do with that 30 quid ?
New hat ?
Have a bit of humanity will ye .

Ray Palmer

StudentDad wrote: »

I would not report someone for having an off the books little sideline. I don't know their circumstances. I don't work for the State. When I see those in positions of power and influence take their noses out of the trough, maybe then I'll reconsider my stance.

SD

Simple report anybody and everybody you KNOW is defrauding the state. You know a politician doing it report them. If everybody did it you would catch them all. You can't really expect somebody else to do if you won't do it yourself.

It is really childish argument made an answered several times already.

For my part I have made reports to the financial regulator and sw about companies and people. No guilt as it is the right thing to do.

joydivision

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Simple report anybody and everybody you KNOW is defrauding the state. You know a politician doing it report them. If everybody did it you would catch them all. You can't really expect somebody else to do if you won't do it yourself.

It is really childish argument made an answered several times already.

For my part I have made reports to the financial regulator and sw about companies and people. No guilt as it is the right thing to do.

I threw up in me mouth a bit there . Thats how your post made me feel ray .

twinQuins

StudentDad wrote: »

I would not report someone for having an off the books little sideline. I don't know their circumstances. I don't work for the State. When I see those in positions of power and influence take their noses out of the trough, maybe then I'll reconsider my stance.

SD

And when society at large gives up this juvenile attitude that cheating others is okay then perhaps the people we elect will be of a better calibre.

When you've a culture that idolises the 'cute hoor' you can't really complain when the elected officials reflect that.

Ray Palmer

joydivision wrote: »

Theres a gang of big pigs sat in the dail and in fancy offices around the country with their nose in the trough 24 /7 . And you wanna begrudge someone that picks up a few crumbs to put a smile on their kids face .
Oh a big cakeshop is missing out because mary sold five jam doughnuts on a stall in the market .
Have you got a copy of the cakeshops accounts ? Are you sure everything there is above board .
Whatll the cakeshop owner do with that 30 quid ?
New hat ?
Have a bit of humanity will ye .

You have exaggerated everything for effect and it doesn't wash. Who is to say the cake shop is some big company? I referred to two stalls. Somebody else has changed it from a market to a Christmas market too.
Not even sure if you are just talking about the government or people in office jobs either.
The point is those" crumbs "being picked up are from somebody else struggling or who has worked hard on their business. The legit cake seller is regulated and observed so can easily be audited.
How would you feel if you set up a business and somebody took business away but paid none of your expenses?

StudentDad

twinQuins wrote: »

And when society at large gives up this juvenile attitude that cheating others is okay then perhaps the people we elect will be of a better calibre.

When you've a culture that idolises the 'cute hoor' you can't really complain when the elected officials reflect that.

Nothing childish at all. It's not my job to tell tales on my neighbours. When there are people living on SFA trying to get by, I'm not going to be the bastard that takes food from their mouths.

SD

srsly78

K-9 wrote: »

Only Benefit payments are taxable, the dole isn't.

Which is dole?

Job seekers allowance
or
Job seekers benefit

twinQuins

StudentDad wrote: »

Nothing childish at all. It's not my job to tell tales on my neighbours. When there are people living on SFA trying to get by, I'm not going to be the bastard that takes food from their mouths.

SD

You were saying?

And sure, if people are living hand to mouth that's one thing but that just means the system needs to be changed.
But lets take a more pertinent example - let's say your neighbours aren't that poor, let's say they're actively scamming the system, milking it for everything they can.

Would you then 'tell tales' on them? I mean if we're going to go to extremes here then by all means, respond to my own.

later12

srsly78 wrote: »

So you agree that the taxes they pay do not contribute?

The taxes they pay are indistinguishable from the taxes you or I pay; all legal tender is accepted by Revenue and commercial enterprises acting on Revenue's behalf without prejudice.

Whether or not you like the fact, jobseekers have a statutory entitlement to an income once they comply with the criteria. They could choose to sleep on that income, bury it, bank it or set fire to it. But if they consume resources paid for with their own money, they will pay tax on those resources, and they will pay it as a disproportionate fraction of their income relative to higher earners. I'm not arguing against that, by the way; just setting out the facts.

We could have an argument over the extent to which taxes contribute to the economy, but that is an argument that tends to be fraught with ideology and contradiction, and is all pretty irrelevant anyway.

joydivision

Ray Palmer wrote: »

You have exaggerated everything for effect and it doesn't wash. Who is to say the cake shop is some big company? I referred to two stalls. Somebody else has changed it from a market to a Christmas market too.
Not even sure if you are just talking about the government or people in office jobs either.
The point is those" crumbs "being picked up are from somebody else struggling or who has worked hard on their business. The legit cake seller is regulated and observed so can easily be audited.
How would you feel if you set up a business and somebody took business away but paid none of your expenses?

What circumstances led this woman to being on the dole ? How did the legit company get the money to set up a legit business .
Take a plumbing business for example .
A legit plumber takes on an apprentice . Pays him little for four to six years until hes qualified . Then lets him go .
He goes on the labour there lads like him everywhere . He gets an offer of a job where he gets paid 200 a week and told he can get his dole . He has to collect dole or dole will not pay him when yer man fires him situations havnt changed .
If he doesnt take the job some other plumber off the dole que will and some other fellas kids will have a nice christmas .
The fellas only qualified he cant afford a van , ads in the yellow pages , gas courses insurance etc . He can only get the odd nixer off family where hes more doing them a favour than himself .
You spent your time ratting out these poor unfortunates annonymously like a cowardly curtain twitcher .

Hopefully everyone gets karma.

srsly78

later12 wrote: »

The taxes they pay are indistinguishable from the taxes you or I pay; all legal tender is accepted by Revenue and commercial enterprises acting on Revenue's behalf without prejudice.

Whether or not you like the fact, jobseekers have a statutory entitlement to an income once they comply with the criteria. They could choose to sleep on that income, bury it, bank it or set fire to it. But if they consume resources paid for with their own money, they will pay tax on those resources, and they will pay it as a disproportionate fraction of their income relative to higher earners. I'm not arguing against that, by the way; just setting out the facts.

We could have an argument over the extent to which taxes contribute to the economy, but that is an argument that tends to be fraught with ideology and contradiction, and is all pretty irrelevant anyway.

It seems you are not aware of the different jobseeker payments, JSB and JSA. Please go learn the difference. Once is as you say, earned by people. The other is not.

later12

eh, what's that got to do with the post you just quoted?

Jobseekers have a statutory entitlement to an income once they comply with the criteria - this goes for both claimants of JB and JA.

I didn't use the subjective term 'earn' in relation to jobseekers at all , by the way.

K-9

srsly78 wrote: »

Which is dole?

Job seekers allowance
or
Job seekers benefit

Dole would be the old term for Jobseeker's allowance, it isn't taxable.