Black economy/ fake goods/ dole cheats & reporting

SEPT 23 1989

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

This country has been ruined but not by single mothers and blokes doing nixers

If you take that attitude for things like that sure you will let a lot of things go. Everyone has to be held accountable. No problem reporting someone if they are claiming social welfare when they not entitled when there are so many complying with the law who are struggling.

UDP

Alexandra Disgusting Treeless wrote: »

Start at the top I say, don't be bullying the little man making an extra few pound.

I see. So your argument is that everyone in power must be following all the laws first before anyone "lower" down has to. So if thats the case then everyone "lower" down should stop paying tax. Sounds like a great way for a country to prosper.

How about a different philosophy that everyone should follow the law.

davet82

UDP wrote: »

I see. So your argument is that everyone in power must be following all the laws first before anyone "lower" down has to. So if thats the case then everyone "lower" down should stop paying tax. Sounds like a great way for a country to prosper.

How about a different philosophy that everyone should follow the law.

they should do that then maybe things might change, good idea

Celly Smunt

Deleted User wrote: »

If you take that attitude for things like that sure you will let a lot of things go. Everyone has to be held accountable. No problem reporting someone if they are claiming social welfare when they not entitled when there are so many complying with the law who are struggling.

you do realise that reporting someone for doing a nixer is adding making more people struggle?

I agree there are some people taking the piss on social welfare,but i also believe that some Irish people are too high upon their horse to see the difficulty of being on social welfare.They might be unemployed soon,and then we'll see if they'll stand by idle and look at their children living on beans for for a moral stance of what they once thought was once a drain on society.

Chris Ryan

Odysseus wrote: »

I often wonder about three this, a lot of my clients would engage in ripping off welfare to various degrees. There are those who really depend on whey get off welfare, others are just doing it because they can. During the good years I was shocked a what some clients where getting.

Single mothers in particular, they had their "book" what they got for attending a p/t course etc, some where getting 550 p/w then there was all the other stuff medical card, rent, etc. A lots has been cut back, but in one area I worked in single mothers where targeted, but the way it was done was wrong. I seen those who weren't ripping off the system were hit, and they blaggers just blagged their way out of it.

I have to say I hate this "it is my money" its not; once my tax is deducted from my wages it is the States money.

Anyway I don't know if that makes sense, but that is my 2c.

No! It's the State's 2 cents

Ray Palmer

pmcmahon wrote: »

Ever hear of divide and conquer?

This has to be one of the laziest and ridiculous statements used by people when people complain about the government.
It seems if anybody actually has opinion about social welfare it is rolled out. I saw it brought out on a homeless report by charity.

It suggests the government is actually setting people against each other to be able to get something past the public. Lets be clear it is our government not a royal appointment. They are not the enemy they are our own representative.

This belief is a hang up from when we were ruled by Britain. You cheat sw, tax etc... You are cheating your fellow citizens. If you ever want to be proud to be Irish do your civic duty.

Divide and conquer applies to those who want to seperate us from our elected government rather than pull together.

If the system is broken fix it don't stand around complaining.

The moaning in this country is the most likely thing to make me leave not taxes.

the_syco

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Personally I would not report anybody for making a few quid for Christmas. When Bertie Ahern can claim the source of his unexplained money was a win on the gee gees and he continues to draw a pension of 3 grand a week, why should I report a person selling mince pies at a Christmas Fair?

Personally I would not report Bertie Ahern for his win on the gee gees, because there's probably someone more corrupt than he is...

The Irish love the chancer, but haven't really figured out that the chancer is the one not paying taxes.

B.A._Baracus

Threads like these always spark a debate... But its just one of those topics where I think the reality of life and hypocrisy come into play.

As for the hypocrisy, take this example: A guy who is happy working away paying his taxes, a guy who also feels people on the social should not be earning a single cent on the side, suddenly loses his job. Has to go on the social himself ... If given the chance to earn a few quid of the side you think he wouldnt?

Life aint fair. Get what you can.

srsly78

BA wrote:

Life aint fair. Get what you can.

Tried that, went to work in Banking for a while - got even more abuse than when I was on the dole

Ray Palmer

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

Threads like these always spark a debate... But its just one of those topics where I think the reality of life and hypocrisy come into play.

As for the hypocrisy, take this example: A guy who is happy working away paying his taxes, a guy who also feels people on the social should not be earning a single cent on the side, suddenly loses his job. Has to go on the social himself ... If given the chance to earn a few quid of the side you think he wouldnt?

Life aint fair. Get what you can.

You are assuming people will forget their morals. I've been there and haven't. So don't assume what you don't know.

Lapin

pennypitstop wrote: »

I know someone, council housed with a few kids & husband out of work. She works hard & sells homemade buns at local car boot sales.......

There is no way this woman should be reported.

She is simply showing a bit of inititave and trying to improve her lot.


But if she called what she was selling 'Cup Cakes' I wouldn't hesitate to rat her up.

old hippy

Deleted User wrote: »

Fair play to those that do some of these parasites are what is ruining our country.

Which parasites? Squealers, single moms, nixers, TDs?

hatrickpatrick

Ray Palmer wrote: »

It suggests the government is actually setting people against each other to be able to get something past the public.

That is exactly what they're doing.

Lets be clear it is our government not a royal appointment. They are not the enemy they are our own representative.

Well they certainly don't represent me. Eamonn Gilmore got my vote and he has not only turned out to be a political liar (see Wikileaks - misleading the public over his opinion on Lisbon so as to avoid losing votes) - he and his party have also broken an unbelievable number of their promises, which after all are the only reason anyone voted for them in the first place.

You cheat sw, tax etc... You are cheating your fellow citizens. If you ever want to be proud to be Irish do your civic duty.

I agree with this, but it has to come from everyone at the same time. In other words, I refuse to condone hunting down SW recipients unless we at the same time stop things like paying expenses to corrupt former politicians, paying off banking gamblers, etc. I'm tired of living in a society where ordinary people go to prison for breaking the rules, but those in power get a sneaky pat on the back. That has to end before we go after ordinary people.

Divide and conquer applies to those who want to seperate us from our elected government rather than pull together.

If the elected government behaved itself and stopped giving itself and its friends entitlements above the general population, nobody would accuse it of anything.

If the system is broken fix it don't stand around complaining.

That's the whole purpose of protesting and applying political pressure.

The moaning in this country is the most likely thing to make me leave not taxes.

I agree, but my solution is for us to actually do something about it. Would you be supportive of a nonviolent revolution? Or would you prefer to just learn to live with the unjust and incendiary status quo we've been asked to accept?

TwoShedsJackson

the_syco wrote: »

Personally I would not report Bertie Ahern for his win on the gee gees, because there's probably someone more corrupt than he is...

The Irish love the chancer, but haven't really figured out that the chancer is the one not paying taxes.

So, the only person you could see yourself reporting for corruption would be the most corrupt person in the country? What difference does it make if there's someone more corrupt than him?

Ray Palmer

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

That is exactly what they're doing.

That is opinion which I doubt you can illustrate.
Never heard of anybody going to jail for breaking rules, laws yes.

Democracy means the government represents you no matter what.

Hold everybody accountable regardless who gets away with what.
Strongly against any idea it is acceptable to steal because somebody else did but didn't get caught. It is a childish excuse to justify what is not acceptable.

Given what you have said there is no way I would support your ideals or mentality for a revolution. It would destroy the country. I am pretty sure I am safe as I doubt you could organise it

You don't need to destroy something to fix it

B.A._Baracus

Ray Palmer wrote: »

You are assuming people will forget their morals. I've been there and haven't. So don't assume what you don't know.

'Morals' - its a grey area isnt? Oh people have great morals when it comes to commenting on others (I could never do that, terrible behavior etc) But when it comes to themselves being in a situation? its all too often a different story. Especially when we are talking about financial gain as we are here.

But I shouldn't assume what I dont know right? ... So your average irish person is of good morals? people dont lie .... people dont steal ... people dont cheat ... people arent looking out for themselves?

So dont talk to me about morals And dont try to come off as high and mighty

Ray Palmer

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

'Morals' - its a grey area isnt? Oh people have great morals when it comes to commenting on others (I could never do that, terrible behavior etc) But when it comes to themselves being in a situation? its all too often a different story. Especially when we are talking about financial gain as we are here.

But I shouldn't assume what I dont know right? ... So your average irish person is of good morals? people dont lie .... people dont steal ... people dont cheat ... people arent looking out for themselves?

So dont talk to me about morals And dont try to come off as high and mighty

Morals on certain issues aren't grey at all. You are effectively saying everybody will change their view in a a certain situation. I have been there and didn't do it so they are my morals. No reason for me not to comment on morals I am not a hypocrite as you accused people making comments are hypocrites.

Not high and mighty just reality where as you want to actively drag everybody down to amoral and greedy level. Yes yo don't know

loggedoff

pennypitstop wrote: »

Heard recently that there is a huge increase in the no. of people being reported for working the black economy, false Social welfare claims and even for selling copyrited and fake goods.
Facebook is rife with it & I'm sure a raid on an xmas craft fair would expose a few more.

Do you think people should report if they know someone?
Is there a serious problem in your opinion or are some crimes not so bad?

Would you report someone?
Would you even know where to to go or who to call?

People should look after their own affairs and mind their own business.

the_syco

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

the_syco wrote: »

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Personally I would not report anybody for making a few quid for Christmas. When Bertie Ahern can claim the source of his unexplained money was a win on the gee gees and he continues to draw a pension of 3 grand a week, why should I report a person selling mince pies at a Christmas Fair?

Personally I would not report Bertie Ahern for his win on the gee gees, because there's probably someone more corrupt than he is...

The Irish love the chancer, but haven't really figured out that the chancer is the one not paying taxes.

So, the only person you could see yourself reporting for corruption would be the most corrupt person in the country? What difference does it make if there's someone more corrupt than him?

My point was that there is always someone more corrupt, and thus saying that you wouldn't report someone because there is someone more corrupt than that person is a load of crap, IMO.

If they are corrupt, you report them.

B.A._Baracus

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Morals on certain issues aren't grey at all. You are effectively saying everybody will change their view in a a certain situation. I have been there and didn't do it so they are my morals. No reason for me not to comment on morals I am not a hypocrite as you accused people making comments are hypocrites.

Not high and mighty just reality where as you want to actively drag everybody down to amoral and greedy level. Yes yo don't know

Is your point is dont tarnish every single person with the same brush .... or is your point that no-one changes their morals? I am just totally wrong?

Should I report my babysitter for not declaring her earnings?

Ray Palmer

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

Is your point is dont tarnish every single person with the same brush .... or is your point that no-one changes their morals? I am just totally wrong?

Don't tar everybody with the same low opinion. It is worse than saying everybody on the dole is scamming. You are saying everybody would. I am telling you you are wrong and therefore wrong calling people hypocrites.
The childish view on 'ratting' is also a ridiculous. People seem to not realise whistle blowers are required to catch people in high positions too. So if they adopt the same attitude you allow it to continue.

old hippy

Deleted User wrote: »

Should I report my babysitter for not declaring her earnings?

Clearly. We need a nation of whistleblowers, dammit.

joydivision

A nation of everyone watching everyone and reporting back to the government .
Begrudging someone at the very bottom of society 30 quid from a day of selling cakes in the cold . Some people in here disgust me . A complete lack of human decency .

When you lose your job and you are offered work in the hand for 200 a week plus your dole you have to take it . Somebody else will . What you are doing is reporting somebody being taken advantage of . You think these people are telling their boss not to pay them the full rate because they can get the dole and save the boss the tax insurance holiday and pension money ?
Its the company owners are the problem not the poor unfortunates being forced into it .
If they get caught the workers get punished and the employers simply say ah sure he was self employed I thought . He told me everything was in order .

Mince Pie

Just for the record with regards the woman selling a few cakes down at a market. I was talking to a friend who does it and wants to go legit. She's doing a course for business start up etc. Problem is not that she doesn't want to declare it, it's that the system makes it almost impossible for a small enterprise to get started.
In order for it to be legit she would have to get planning permission from the council to use her home as a business and then would be stung for business rates and all the other lovely charges that go with it in order to sell a few cakes to make 30-50 euro for 3 days work (baking for a day or two then manning the stall). Most markets are one to two days at the weekend.
So in that instance what the hell do you do? Oh yeah, report them! :rolleyes:

later12

I have been unemployed once in my life and I have worked for the family business once in my life. It is my strongly held opinion that it is far, far easier to evade and cheat on one's obligations as a self employed individual than it is as an unemployed individual.

As good as Revenue are at their job, they can't look over your shoulder to see what you're putting in your pocket every day, especially where you're dealing largely in casual cash transactions. I'm not saying we cheat on our taxes; we don't; but I can see how easy it would be.

I can never understand why, when the black economy is brought up in discussions, talk immediately turns to the far more policeable social welfare claims, when it is likely that the bulk of the €20 billion black economy in Ireland actually revolves around private enterprise which feels unable or unwilling to operate in accordance with its tax obligations.

Anyone

One of the main reasons Greece is in the shít is their black economy. Nearly everybody there has earnings they dont declare or pay taxes on, or well they used to. The common replies in Greece were "everyone is doing it" or "gov officials do it".

So where does it end? Whats acceptable and whats not? Personally I dont see any grey area. If you earn income you should declare it. How or even if its taxed is a seperate issue.

srsly78

later12 wrote: »

It is my strongly held opinion that it is far, far easier to evade and cheat on one's obligations as a self employed individual than it is as an unemployed individual.

As good as Revenue are at their job, they can't look over your shoulder to see what you're putting in your pocket every day, especially where you're dealing largely in casual cash transactions. I'm not saying we cheat on our taxes; we don't; but I can see how easy it would be.

Yes when cash is involved fraud is easy, but not all self-employed people have cash businesses. I'm self-employed and there is no cash in involved at all, everything leaves an electronic trail.

Most self-employed people will admit to achieving tax efficiency via unvouched expenses - but these allowances are the standard civil service ones!! Thus epic hilarity ensues when a public service member bitches about the self-employed.

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/leaflets/it54.html see appendix 1

loggedoff

Anyone wrote: »

One of the main reasons Greece is in the shít is their black economy. Nearly everybody there has earnings they dont declare or pay taxes on, or well they used to. The common replies in Greece were "everyone is doing it" or "gov officials do it".

So where does it end? Whats acceptable and whats not? Personally I dont see any grey area. If you earn income you should declare it. How or even if its taxed is a seperate issue.

Should we tax social welfare then, the babysitters few quid, the few cakes sold to friends, the woman who minds a kid for someone a couple of times a week?
Should we tax every time cash changes hands?

Can you imagine the bureaucracy involved?

Anyone

loggedoff wrote: »

Should we tax social welfare then, the babysitters few quid, the few cakes sold to friends, the woman who minds a kid for someone a couple of times a week?
Should we tax every time cash changes hands?

Can you imagine the bureaucracy involved?

I explicitly said taxing income is a different issue. But people should declare earnings.