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Having to go to church: Should I stand?
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I stand and kneel along with everyone else.I don't believe for a second in the holygod elements of the christening. Neither does my sis, as it happens. That's her business. Nor does her daughter who'll be having her head splashed, but she'll be free to join this forum in her own good time.
But I'm happy to commit to taking a special interest in her daughter as long as we're both alive. Does this make me a hypocrite. I don't care. I'll respect all assembled there present and hope that respect would be returned. If its not, no skin off my nose.
If you're making promises which you have no intention of carrying through, in terms of indocrinating the child in a particular religious belief, then yes you are absolutely a hypocrite. That's not to say that the failure to indoctrinate is detrimental to the child
quite the opposite imho
I made similar promises many years ago and I deeply regret it now. I wish I had had the courage to declare then what I really believed (or rather, didn't believe) in.Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.
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I stand and kneel along with everyone else.
If it was my day, I'd declare it. Its not. My sister and her husband asked my to do something rather special. They are fully aware of and comfortable with my atheism. I'll hold the child and commit to look out for her welfare and happiness. The priest's interpretation of this commitment is his own affair. I won't take him all that seriously. He'll be wearing a dress...If you're making promises which you have no intention of carrying through, in terms of indocrinating the child in a particular religious belief, then yes you are absolutely a hypocrite. That's not to say that the failure to indoctrinate is detrimental to the child quite the opposite imho
I made similar promises many years ago and I deeply regret it now. I wish I had had the courage to declare then what I really believed (or rather, didn't believe) in.
I will know what I'll mean. As will the parents. As will the child, in time.
Child in time! A soundtrack to late night boardsin' suggests itself!
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I stand and kneel along with everyone else.
Let's be clear - some of posts in this thread annoy most of us. The idea that you wouldn't stand in a church, or that you'd skip a wedding ceremony altogether is behavior most wouldn't engage in (see the poll for more). So this isn't an "atheist" trait, but an individual trait. You seem intent on making general comments when in fact you should be quoting certain responses only.This is why some of the posts in the thread annoy me, It's not the fact that people are atheists at all, it's the fact that some posters lack the decorum to act in an appropriate and respectful manner as if they purposely have to go in and act in such a juvenile fashion simply "to prove a point". Most people there really couldn't give a fiddlers, and the only one the atheist person is truly embarrassing, is themselves.
All atheist are atheists because they have an issue with religion... i.e. the lack of any evidence to suggest any of it is true! People aren't atheists because they don't *like* religion, or because they *reject* God. You either believe it's true or you don't. What happens after that is down to the individuals attitude toward the religion and those who practice/preach it.As I read through more and more threads in the forum too, it seems to bear out my initial thoughts that most atheists are what I call natural atheists- they have no grievance with religion, they just don't believe in a deity, and then there are a small minority who are what I call rebellious atheists- those who have become atheist purely because of their various issues with religion. The rebellious atheists are the type that I find annoying because they seem to go out of their way to make a statement of their rebellion.
Religious people generally find vocal atheists annoying as religion is used to being immune to criticism. It doesn't cope well with uncomfortable questions or the thought of losing it's grip on it's flock. Believers as per the most vocal ones in the media peddle ridiculous notions of what a secular society would mean for us, ignoring the horrors that were perpetrated behind closed doors in times when the cloth ruled the country.
It's only a dis-service to atheism when observers cannot separate one individual as being an atheist, and another as being anti-theist.In my opinion, this only does a dis-service to atheism, because people would see them as a bit, well, "unhinged" and irrational, the very thing these rebellious atheists seem to want to dismiss people who believe in a deity for!
Agreed! Insofar as we're talking about the way the 'battle' has been fought by certain posters on this thread.As one poster mentioned earlier- you really DO have to pick your battles, and I understand they didn't mean battles in the aggressive sense of the word, but in the way that if you come across to people as a confrontational and arrogant person, they aren't going to give you much time, and so your message is lost, but if you talk to people, you have a much better chance of getting your message across than behaving like a juvenille and stroppy rebellious teenager with no regard for anybody but yourself. 0 -
It's true Dades I was trying to make a more general comment on the whole decorum in a religious place rather than quoting posters specifically because I figured that might come across as attacking the poster and not the post and might be seen as me being confrontational. I actually only wandered into the thread off the boards home page and that post I initially quoted wasn't meant to come across as having any particular objection to the poster, but just the way an atheist would use the expression "throwing their eyes up to heaven", and then nobody else spotted it, I just thought it was funny in an ironic way was all...
I was only browsing boards on the mobile at the minute, I don't usually post from mobile because of dreaded JSON errors and timeouts making it a pain in the proverbial, so I was waiting til later when I could make a proper post, but when I saw your post I just thought I had better make a reply to make it clear that I'm by no means a fire and brimstone catholic, etc, nor do I in any way tacitly approve of the abuses of the hierarchy carried out in the name of the catholic church (my own view on that is that these scum were pedophiles and pederasts before they were ever priests, and the way the hierarchy of the church was set up, enabled them to indulge their proclivities).
I may not be an eloquent wordsmith, but I didn't want my posts to be seen as trolling or disrespectful to any of the posters in here either.0 -
I stand and kneel along with everyone else.It's all good.
I've probably seen too many threads where newcomers read a minority of posts and assume the views expressed are shared by all atheists.
A belated welcome to you... do stick around!0 -
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I stand and kneel along with everyone else.
I get what you're saying 123. Next time I'm accused of militancy I'll point them in the direction of this thread. I suspect they'll find it just as offensive. Funny that...username123 wrote: »I agree with Maggie. Why on earth would someone who is atheist agree to be a godfather, and by doing so, participate in further indoctrination when you are expected to hold the candle at various ceremonies like communion and stand for them at confirmation!! Its because of this kind of sham behaviour that the catholic church has the hold it has in this country. If people who didnt believe actually didnt participate and encourage the play acting then the church would have less power.
Just bizarre. No judgement man, but just weird!!
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I get what you're saying 123. Next time I'm accused of militancy I'll point them in the direction of this thread. I suspect they'll find it just as offensive. Funny that...
As I said, no judgement, but it is weird and it does have the unintended consequence of empowering the church - but sure, none of us believe in that malarkus 0 -
I stand and kneel along with everyone else.
And my not taking part would prevent what exactly...?username123 wrote: »
As I said, no judgement, but it is weird and it does have the unintended consequence of empowering the church - but sure, none of us believe in that malarkus0 -
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This is like the voting argument. He doesn't have the power to control what other people do - and certainly not what everyone else does. I don't like participating in masses either, but I honestly think arguing here is more like to have an impact on our society than sulking over a ceremony.
Elections have been lost or won on just a small number of votes you know 0 -
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Anyone else find themselves very conscious of their hands in a church when standing?
I feel awkward just leaving them by my side.
I don't want to put them in my pockets as I think that would be disrespectful.
I am certainly not going to put them into a praying position.
I am conflicted as to whether folded arms is disrespectful or not.
As a (at times) practicising Catholic, I'd say folding your arms (a good countryman approach) or placing your hands on the back of the bench in front is fine, not disrespectful at all.You can't claim that something doesn't change materially, but it does change. There is nothing else.
Surely, if you want to argue about the inherit logic of Catholic beliefs from a philosophical point of view (as opposed to the likelihood of them being true), you can't start from a point of 'there is only the material'?
With the idea of kneeling being submissive: sometimes I get the feeling from some atheists friends, rightly or wrongly, that they don't want to kneel because it seems to them to be too much like being involved in the mass 'as a Catholic'.
I've gone to a Hindu temple, which had a queue of worshippers going up to the shrine in prayer. Everyone who looked into the shrine was expected to bow as a mark of respect. I wanted to take a look in (it was beautifully decorated), so did the symbolic gesture. I saw no problem with it because there was no meaning behind it for me.
I would've thought it would be the same for atheists & kneeling at mass (though I've no problem with people who don't). Sometimes it seems that people are trying to distance themselves from it as much as possible — like homophobic men who won't make any comment or gesture that could ever be construed as being gay :pac:0 -
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TheChizler wrote: »I think most people here would advocate the opposite, respect people, and their right to beliefs, but not their beliefs themselves.
I always find this a funny distinction that everyone seems to make. I've always understood one of the meanings of respect being "have appropriate consideration for", which can change from situation to situation.
If I'm playing football with my boss, what constitutes respect would probably be very different than if I was in a salary review meeting. In the same way, I'd say having due respect for Christianity in your day to day life is simply refraining from hostility to people. In a church though, it would change to not doing things that run contrary to the environment — like wearing inappropriate clothing for instance.
I don't think anyone means 'agree with' when they say 'have respect for their beliefs' — I can think my boss is a twat but still show him respect — but this meaning always seems to be taken on message boards (Maybe I don't understand the word correctly :pac:) 0 -
I always find this a funny distinction that everyone seems to make. I've always understood one of the meanings of respect being "have appropriate consideration for", which can change from situation to situation.
If I'm playing football with my boss, what constitutes respect would probably be very different than if I was in a salary review meeting. In the same way, I'd say having due respect for Christianity in your day to day life is simply refraining from hostility to people. In a church though, it would change to not doing things that run contrary to the environment — like wearing inappropriate clothing for instance.
I don't think anyone means 'agree with' when they say 'have respect for their beliefs' — I can think my boss is a twat but still show him respect — but this meaning always seems to be taken on message boards (Maybe I don't understand the word correctly :pac:)
I had a reply typed out on the mobile here, but the stupid JSON error crap and it vanished into the ether, but feathers you pretty much covered what I was going to say anyway the way some atheists go on with the whole sky fairy and spaghetti spaceship nonsense. It sounds ridiculous, and if you're going to talk to someone about atheism or the other persons belief in a deity, using terms like that just sounds a bit childish!
Where I'm coming from is that I would respect anyone's beliefs, or lack thereof, simply as a matter of courtesy, for me it's just manners, but some people I meet who claim to be atheist now, it almost comes across like they WANT to be antagonistic, as if they have some sort of a point to prove, or to make themselves feel better about themselves at your expense. To me this just comes off as the person trying to be a faux intellectual and a bit of an attention seeker.
It's particularly prevalent in this generation in my experience because I first came across atheism about 20 years ago in my teens, when some of my friends became atheists, there was no big deal made of it and there was no scorn because I was catholic, we had more interesting things to talk about.
Its like a couple of weeks ago I was out in the club, met a girl and she was telling me about her degree course in psychology, and eventually the conversation got around to religion and she started giving it welly about catholic abuse and sky fairy, etc, and I just thought to myself "fu.ck, she seemed like an incredibly intelligent girl a few minutes ago, now she's just making herself sound like a spanner!", but she eventually stopped to take a drink anyway and looked at me as if to say "Chime in here any time like!".
I just said "Oh I'm Roman catholic, but don't let that stop you, do go on?".
The big "we are not amused" head on her was priceless! 0 -
I stand and kneel along with everyone else.the way some atheists go on with the whole sky fairy and spaghetti spaceship nonsense.
The FSM is nonsense, that's the point, to get people thinking about how arbitrary religious beliefs are. There is plenty of stuff in the bible more ridiculous than the FSM.It sounds ridiculous, and if you're going to talk to someone about atheism or the other persons belief in a deity, using terms like that just sounds a bit childish!
Well, not childish in general but it can be. I wouldn't use that sort of terminology to a believer if I thought it would offend them. Offending people only puts people on the defensive about their beliefs anyway and makes them closed to other ideas.Where I'm coming from is that I would respect anyone's beliefs, or lack thereof, simply as a matter of courtesy
So that means no 'atheists have no morals', 'there is no real love without god', 'atheists are doomed to eternal torment', 'atheists' lives are meaningless' etc. crap we so often hear. I wish other theists would copy your example!for me it's just manners, but some people I meet who claim to be atheist now, it almost comes across like they WANT to be antagonistic, as if they have some sort of a point to prove, or to make themselves feel better about themselves at your expense.
I want to be antagonistic towards the fake, cultural catholic, fit in, be seen at mass, practices so many people hold and their passive acceptance of church control of education and health and the deeply malign influence of religion and sectarianism on our society in general.
I am extremely antagonistic towards the RCC for its many heinous abuses and continued failure to do what they instruct their followers to do - confess, repent, and make amends.To me this just comes off as the person trying to be a faux intellectual and a bit of an attention seeker.
And of course we all know what Irish society thinks of intellectuals :rolleyes: 'that fella is getting above himself'It's particularly prevalent in this generation in my experience because I first came across atheism about 20 years ago in my teens, when some of my friends became atheists, there was no big deal made of it and there was no scorn because I was catholic, we had more interesting things to talk about.
Which generation is 'this generation' ?
There are people posting here who are quite a bit older than you. There are people posting here a good bit younger than you too.The big "we are not amused" head on her was priceless!
So what. People have their own reasons for holding the views they do about religion whether positive or negative. Having a negative view of religion is not about being childish, or rebellious, or a 'pseudo-intellectual'. There is something very smug and judgemental about the term 'pseudo-intellectual' or 'faux intellectual' anyway.Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.
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