Having to go to church: Should I stand?

superblu

Rory McNicholas wrote: »

Why does it need to be done? If your a Catholic maybe, but I'm not. Why should I have to stand just because they do? I wouldn't do something just because the majority are.

I suppose it's just a question of taking 1 for the team. My parents are very anti drink. I don't drink in front of them out of respect. I'm not too hot on mass but I still go along and go thru the motions. I actually find mass a good time to be alone with your thoughts and just have a good spacing out session. This can be done kneeling, sitting and standing. Maybe don't bother going up for communion if you want to make a point but other than that I'd just suck it up, get on with it and not think about it too much.

Zombrex

pontia wrote: »

you could have got all the chips on your shoulders and provided the meal for the reception.seems to be making things arkward for the sake of it,been at enough crappy weddings,didint act the child on someone elses big day

Lol, when was the last time you saw a child sitting quietly in church not doing anything

Dr Turk Turkelton

J0hnick wrote: »

I'm OK with standing, its kneeling I wont do. I had a similar incident at the last family funeral I attended, I sat for the whole thing and didn't care what anyone else thought, my immediate family know I'm an atheist and my dad even joked about it after.

Unfortunately I cant say the same for the last wedding I attended, it was my girlfriends cousins wedding so none of my family was there, and only my girlfriend and her parents knew I was an atheist. When the priest asked everyone to kneel I stayed seated, hoping I wasn't the only person to stay seated, until I looked around and realized the whole place was staring at me and the misses was giving me daggers, so begrudgingly and to avoid confrontation, I knelt .

What they couldn't stop me from doing though was kneeling in the most unenthusiastic way, throwing my eyes up to heaven, muttering stuff quietly to myself, and shaking my head whenever the priest would quote scripture and claim that it was all gods work that the couple had met and fallen in love ... followed by a hymn about how great god is ... and me face palming (literally) during the readings when they told the story about Eve being a rib lady.

My girlfriend even said to me afterwards "did you even know you were doing that inside ?", she was a little embarrassed and even a little angry at me, but I couldn't help it.

You seem like a proper d1ckhead.
You were part of a ceremony that you were invited to by the bride and groom and decieded to act the rebel because no one knew you.

You should not have gone if you have that little respect for your girlfriend or the people who got married and were generous enough to invite you to their special day.

pontia

Zombrex wrote: »

Lol, when was the last time you saw a child sitting quietly in church not doing anything

yeah,good reply,expect more from a kid,no issues

nkay1985

I'm like a lot of people here, it would seem. I stand when the others stand but I sit when they kneel. Seems like a reasonable compromise to me.

grindle

I stand, but don't kneel.

nkay1985 wrote: »

I'm like a lot of people here, it would seem. I stand when the others stand but I sit when they kneel. Seems like a reasonable compromise to me.

Not to sound like a mother BUT

If they jumped off a cliff, would you?

That saying has a very simple meaning.

If people do something stupid, would you (should you) do it too?

Your answer says yes. What's reasonable about that?

If you understood what the word 'reasonable' meant, you'd be telling him to go from pew to pew trying to convert Christians to a state of ideological skepticism.
THAT would be reasonable.
Suggesting the opposite would be (very) easily defined as insanity.

pontia

your an arsehole it appears

grindle

I stand, but don't kneel.

Go on, humour me with your deepest insights.

What makes me, somebody who doesn't just bend to any ridiculous cultural whim an arsehole?

Or did you mean to quote yourself, but forgot? I can't be sure, and wouldn't like to cast aspersions. Just want to make sure.

pontia

were talking about a mans funeral.a couples wedding,both should retain an element of respect from people irrespective of their beliefs,anything besides that is ignorant,

Peregrinus

Going to a wedding mass or a funeral mass or a memorial mass or the like is participating in a communal ritual, and if an atheist goes to one of these it is presumably because, while rejecting or disregarding the theistic elements, they still see value in participating in the communal ritual.

It's a ritual, participation in which involves more than mere presence. Obviously an atheist will want to avoid anything which is inherently offensive to them, or which it would be simply dishonest of them to do - e.g. receiving communion, leading a prayer - but, up to that point, the point about participating in a communal ritual is that you participate in it. So if part of the shared experience is shared posture - standing, sitting, kneeling - then I suggest the default should be that you adopt the common posture, unless it would be inherently dishonest or offensive.

A lot of contributors to this thread seem happy to stand, but not to kneel, and I think that makes sense, though obviously everyone must make up their own mind about what is dishonest for them.

Avoid the eye-rolling, face-palming, etc. That's just childish. The healthiest attitude is that you will participate in this ritual to the fullest extent that your convictions allow, because the ritual, and the event it marks, matters to you and to your family or community. If you can't or won't participate in that spirit it would probably be wiser, and would certainly be more virtuous, to stay away

pontia

good to see some sense,fair play

endacl

I stand and kneel along with everyone else.

Rory McNicholas wrote: »

I'm not a sheep, therefore I do not follow the herd.

Neither do sheep Rory. They flock.

At least you get to semi-officially not take part in school. Wasn't like that in my day!

As regards the funeral, I get your objection. And your passion for your principles. At the risk of sounding patronizing, I remember being a teenager too...

Stand when they stand. Kneel when they kneel. You already sit when they sit, so you get most of the mass the way you want it, don't you? It's not a big deal, and its in memory of your grandad. Most people won't care what you do, once you don't make the mass all about Rory the Not-A-Catholic. It's only 'giving in' if you first make a fuss over it.

If you haven't made a fuss, you'll get by with the sit when they kneel thing. I've been doing it for years. Only once or twice a year at family things, but that's my compromise.

robindch

I stand and kneel along with everyone else.

pontia wrote: »

[...] an element of respect from people irrespective of their beliefs, anything besides that is ignorant,

pontia wrote: »

your an arsehole it appears

If cards were handed out for irony, pontia would get one. As it is, he/she gets one for just being rude.

Cuchulainn1. wrote: »

You seem like a proper d1ckhead. [...] You should not have gone if you have that little respect [...]

Likewise.

Columbia

You should have stood. If you choose to walk into a church, you need to respect the beliefs of that denomination, no exceptions.

Dave!

I guess it's conspicuous displays of protest that upsets the congregation. Which is fair enough. It's their place of worship, not some public building - if you can't go without making a scene, then you shouldn't go.

I stand but don't kneel. Kneeling is awful hard work.

nozzferrahhtoo

I stand and kneel along with everyone else.

I stand when every one else does when I have to go to church for the sole reason that I like to keep my view. I hate being at any show where I can not see the stage so if they stand I have to aswell.

I therefore have no requirement to kneel however. When everyone else starts groveling and prostrating themselves, I get the perfect view.

B9K9

I stand and kneel along with everyone else.

I have always sat and stood but not knelt; the kneeling felt culturally submissive which I cannot do. Seems this is the most common position/attitude. Nobody except my wife has ever chided me on this.

JuliusCaesar

B9K9 wrote: »

I have always sat and stood but not knelt; the kneeling felt culturally submissive which I cannot do. Seems this is the most common position/attitude.

ditto. Kneeling is a step too far.

Tasden

I do the whole shebang... standing, kneeling, praying, communion etc...

I recently attended a family members funeral. I stood and knelt and also did a reading. Out of respect for the deceased.

People give out about certain people shoving religion down their throat, catholic schools, not respecting non believers etc. yet when they are in a place of worship they insist on making a stand about their own beliefs/lack thereof. Bit hypocritical.

Personally I think if you're in a place of worship you should do as is expected to a certain point out of respect, otherwise don't go at all. I understand most won't agree but that's my opinion!

BrensBenz

Given your atheism - you probably don't believe that your (deceased) grandfather's spirit exists - so this might be a superfluous question but what would your grandfather have liked you to do? Since his children are catholic, I'm guessing he was catholic(?) but was he tolerant of other views?
Recently, my dad died and, although my rational head says not, I can't help feeling that he is still there, somewhere close. I would find it difficult to do something at a ceremony in his memory which I know he would be unhappy with. Maybe wimpish but I would bend for an hour a year rather than possibly disrespecting the deceased or definitely upsetting the living!

grindle

I stand, but don't kneel.

Tasden wrote: »

Personally I think if you're in a place of worship you should do as is expected to a certain point out of respect, otherwise don't go at all. I understand most won't agree but that's my opinion!

Depending on where a viewing worshipper is on the slippery scale of piety, standing, kneeling and praying when you couldn't truly care might be little better or a good bit worse - it's fairly patronising to have someone who doesn't believe in a god reading out the words of a god or talking to a god no matter how the words are delivered or intention behind it.
Unless those worshippers are like most and just pointlessly going with the flow, they should be pretty insulted? Certainly more insulted than they should be by someone remaining inactive.
I'd rather no pretence to false pretence, personally, but a devotee's love for myths may extend to strangers faking it in Mass, I don't know.

Tasden

I do the whole shebang... standing, kneeling, praying, communion etc...

grindle wrote: »

Depending on where a viewing worshipper is on the slippery scale of piety, standing, kneeling and praying when you couldn't truly care might be little better or a good bit worse - it's fairly patronising to have someone who doesn't believe in a god reading out the words of a god or talking to a god no matter how the words are delivered or intention behind it.
Unless those worshippers are like most and just pointlessly going with the flow, they should be pretty insulted? Certainly more insulted than they should be by someone remaining inactive.
I'd rather no pretence to false pretence, personally, but a devotee's love for myths may extend to strangers faking it in Mass, I don't know.

That's a fair point actually. It was the persons family who asked me to read, knowing my stance on the issue so I don't know. Other people wouldn't know my beliefs or lack thereof so it wouldn't be an issue. The mass was more a going through the motions in the traditional way though tbh.

TwoShedsJackson

I stand and kneel along with everyone else.

B9K9 wrote: »

I have always sat and stood but not knelt; the kneeling felt culturally submissive which I cannot do. Seems this is the most common position/attitude. Nobody except my wife has ever chided me on this.

My knees are too shagged to be kneeling on church furniture, not a chance of that.

B9K9

I stand and kneel along with everyone else.

I get the impression there is tacit acceptance of 'non-kneelers' something like "yes we know you are not one of us but are here for important social reasons"

Zamboni

I stand and kneel along with everyone else.

I'll go.
I'll stand.
I'll sit.
All as a matter of respect.
I won't kneel.
That is symbol of submission.

Tasden

I do the whole shebang... standing, kneeling, praying, communion etc...

Zamboni wrote: »

I'll go.
I'll stand.
I'll sit.
All as a matter of respect.
I won't kneel.
That is symbol of submission.

Submission to what exactly?

Dades

I stand and kneel along with everyone else.

Now with added poll!

Based on the answers here, I can guess which will be most preferred option.

Peregrinus wrote: »

Avoid the eye-rolling, face-palming, etc. That's just childish.

I find that particularly hard (especially at funerals), though generally manage to restrict the eye-rolling to inside my head only.

Tasden

I do the whole shebang... standing, kneeling, praying, communion etc...

Dades wrote: »

Now with added poll!

Based on the answers here, I can guess which will be most preferred option.

.

I voted wrong due to my fat fingers and it won't let me change it! Oops!

OU812

Zamboni wrote: »

I'll go.
I'll stand.
I'll sit.
All as a matter of respect.
I won't kneel.
That is symbol of submission.

This.

I'll even unenthusastically shake hands & if asked would do a reading (although I'd tell the person asking me, my views first to give thm a chance to ask someone else if they wanted). But I kneel before no one - not even Zod

Zamboni

I stand and kneel along with everyone else.

Tasden wrote: »

Submission to what exactly?

The 'what' really doesn't matter. It's the symbolism I won't adhere to.