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Having to go to church: Should I stand?

124

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,484 ✭✭✭username123


    that'd be the height of ignorance. the reception is for the people who attended the wedding. you either go to the church, or don't go at all.

    if you receive a wedding invite, please do not contact the couple to let them know you'll just be attending the reception. it'd be rude and you'd be placing them in an awkward position. just say you can't go.

    Thats rubbish. Ive gone to just the reception on 2 occasions in the last year and I didnt draw attention to it in either case. The first was because my husband couldnt get off work in time for the church and the second was because of car trouble.

    The reception is not for people who attended the church and you are very naive if you think it is. I advise you to do a head count at the next wedding you go to in the church and again at the meal - plenty of people choose not to go to the church or cant make it to the church.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 881 ✭✭✭Bloodwing


    Does anybody know how many weight watchers points are in a jesus? I can't seem to find it in the book.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,510 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Thats rubbish. Ive gone to just the reception on 2 occasions in the last year and I didnt draw attention to it in either case. The first was because my husband couldnt get off work in time for the church and the second was because of car trouble.

    The reception is not for people who attended the church and you are very naive if you think it is. I advise you to do a head count at the next wedding you go to in the church and again at the meal - plenty of people choose not to go to the church or cant make it to the church.
    if i remember correctly, someone on here who was having a humanist ceremony was contacted by several people to ask was there any need to show up for the ceremony since they obviously reckoned it had no meaning.
    iirc, the general consensus was if you're invited to a wedding, the wedding is the primary event and the reception the secondary one.

    i'd certainly consider it rude to ignore the wedding ceremony and turn up for the reception unless the circumstances were unavoidable.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    I stand and kneel along with everyone else.
    Yeah, there's a world of difference between choosing not to bother with the church, and not being able to make it.

    Turning up only for the free meal because you couldn't be arsed with the ceremony bit is bad form no matter what way you want to paint it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,000 ✭✭✭mitosis


    I stand for the standing and sit for the rest. I'm not doing the obeisance
    gestures


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    I stand and kneel along with everyone else.
    lazygal wrote: »
    No, no, no. Jesus was a gluten free miracle. So everyone could enjoy his tasty, tasty flesh.
    Aren't we all gluten free (other than that tasty, tasty cake I just ate)? I'd hardly call him a miracle in that case.
    Thats rubbish. Ive gone to just the reception on 2 occasions in the last year and I didnt draw attention to it in either case. The first was because my husband couldnt get off work in time for the church and the second was because of car trouble.

    The reception is not for people who attended the church and you are very naive if you think it is. I advise you to do a head count at the next wedding you go to in the church and again at the meal - plenty of people choose not to go to the church or cant make it to the church.

    There's a difference between not attending the ceremony because you can't make it, and not attending because you have an issue with the type of ceremony. Sometimes on this forum someone who is planning a non-religious wedding will ask what to do about a relative who doesn't want to come to the ceremony because they don't think it's 'real' if it's not in a church, and they are often told to advise the relative to not bother showing up for the reception in that case. I wouldn't expect anything different from a couple planning a religious wedding: if you can't put aside your hang ups and at least show up at the ceremony, don't bother showing up at the reception.


  • Registered Users Posts: 41 Sean O Hara


    I'm not a sheep, therefore I do not follow the herd.


    This is a remembrance mass for your mom’s/dad’s father and yet you have found a way to get the families attention on you.

    Grow up and stop making a fool of yourself. Everything in life is not about you or your pathetic attempts at teenage rebellion.


    Rgds,
    Sean


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    I stand and kneel along with everyone else.
    if i remember correctly, someone on here who was having a humanist ceremony was contacted by several people to ask was there any need to show up for the ceremony since they obviously reckoned it had no meaning.
    iirc, the general consensus was if you're invited to a wedding, the wedding is the primary event and the reception the secondary one.e.
    I think that might have been me? We had a couple of no shows for the wedding ceremony, we've come to terms with the fact some people are pr!cks.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    I stand and kneel along with everyone else.
    This is a remembrance mass for your mom’s/dad’s father and yet you have found a way to get the families attention on you.

    Grow up and stop making a fool of yourself. Everything in life is not about you or your pathetic attempts at teenage rebellion.


    Rgds,
    Sean
    Hi Sean!

    You should read the thread. People have managed to convey similar opinions, but a little more constructively, and within the charter. Feel free to contribute when you think you can do that.

    /Mod


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    I can't believe in a thread full of atheists, in a forum full of even more atheists, and having read through the whole thread so far, nobody picked up on this little langer clanger on the first page-
    J0hnick wrote: »
    What they couldn't stop me from doing though was kneeling in the most unenthusiastic way, throwing my eyes up to heaven, muttering stuff quietly to myself, and shaking my head whenever the priest would quote scripture and claim that it was all gods work that the couple had met and fallen in love ... followed by a hymn about how great god is ... and me face palming (literally) during the readings when they told the story about Eve being a rib lady...

    An atheist says where now? :p


    But anyway, not to play devil's advocate here, but as a roman catholic myself, and speaking from my albeit limited understanding of what it is to be an atheist- a lack of belief in a deity, why does it actually matter so much to do the catholic pilates (i liked that expression! :D) for the forty minutes if you believe there is no particular signifigance in it? I just can't fathom the depth of abhorrence I guess for something that atheists consider irrelevant? As someone else pointed out earlier in the thread- "When in Rome...".

    I mean, if you're really that bent out of shape about participating, then don't, but the whole eye rolling, arm folding, muttering, etc, that's just plain disrespectful, in ANY environment, irrespective of the fact of whether you are scornful of somebody elses beliefs or not. When I go to somebody's house and they ask me to take off my shoes at the door, I think it's a bit silly, and I feel a bit ridiculous, but I would still at the same time do it out of respect as it is their house, not mine, so I abide by their rules. I don't get all bent out of shape about it as I'm usually only there for an hour or so to do a job and then go. If I was that bad about it, I have the choice to turn around and leave and keep my shoes on!

    The same is true for atheists- If you do not want to respect the beliefs of those in attendance, nobody has glue on your shoes that you cannot turn around and leave, rather than make a mockery of those who actually want to be there.


    Anyway, with all that said, as already mentioned, I'm an RC myself, and growing up I was the black sheep of the family, one could say I was the bane of my fathers existence. So, at his funeral anyway and I was running a bit late for the mass. We had never really seen eye to eye and even though I am catholic, even Jesus had people who p!ssed him off, and lets not go there with the amount of people God had according to the old testament who p!ssed HIM off, so basically myself and my father p!ssed each other off, and we had very little in the way of time for each other.

    But I went to his funeral, turned up about ten minutes late, and didn't want to make a scene, seeing as the rest of the family were all up at the front of the church, I felt it would be hypocritical of me to go sit with them and pretend like we were all some close bond family nonsense. I had no respect for the man at this stage anyway having tried and failed numerous times at the tolerance and forgiveness route.

    So I was standing at the back of the church with everyone else, when one of the neighbours recognised me and grabbed me by my elbow, "go on up there to the front" he said. I glared at him for being so forceful and said "i'm grand here, thanks!". But he persisted- "go on, go on up there!"... I was rather irate at this stage when I leaned into his ear and whispered "I'm only here because I wanted to be sure for myself this time!" (My father had a quad bypass done two years earlier and when he thought he was on his deathbed before the operation "wanted to make his peace". He came out of it fine and it wasn't long before he was back to his arrogant, indignant self). The neighbour understood the reference and disappeared back into the crowd.

    I left after the mass was done and there was no big deal made of anything.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 96 ✭✭xxmeabhxx


    Czarcasm wrote: »
    But anyway, not to play devil's advocate here, but as a roman catholic myself, and speaking from my albeit limited understanding of what it is to be an atheist- a lack of belief in a deity, why does it actually matter so much to do the catholic pilates (i liked that expression! :D) for the forty minutes if you believe there is no particular signifigance in it? I just can't fathom the depth of abhorrence I guess for something that atheists consider irrelevant? As someone else pointed out earlier in the thread- "When in Rome...".

    I mean, if you're really that bent out of shape about participating, then don't, but the whole eye rolling, arm folding, muttering, etc, that's just plain disrespectful, in ANY environment, irrespective of the fact of whether you are scornful of somebody elses beliefs or not. When I go to somebody's house and they ask me to take off my shoes at the door, I think it's a bit silly, and I feel a bit ridiculous, but I would still at the same time do it out of respect as it is their house, not mine, so I abide by their rules. I don't get all bent out of shape about it as I'm usually only there for an hour or so to do a job and then go. If I was that bad about it, I have the choice to turn around and leave and keep my shoes on!

    The same is true for atheists- If you do not want to respect the beliefs of those in attendance, nobody has glue on your shoes that you cannot turn around and leave, rather than make a mockery of those who actually want to be there.


    I'd have to agree with you and I'm an atheist. I completely understand how someone could have disrespect for organized religion and dread going to a church for whatever reason but if I do have to go for a family occasion of some sort I think it would be rude to eye roll and mutter. I wouldn't take communion nor would I say prayers but I'd stand and kneel and not bother the people who invited me there.

    I think it's just basic politeness and you don't have to compromise your beliefs or views, you don't have to pray or do anything which is Christian but I'd do enough to cooperate and show respect.

    I'd do it for any religion, not just Christianity.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    I stand and kneel along with everyone else.
    Czarcasm, I assume the above was directed at the poster you quoted, as it appears from this thread that a large majority of non-believers do not engage in eye-rolling and muttering, and instead show due respect for the occasion, if not the religion. :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 211 ✭✭Maggie 2


    I do the whole shebang... standing, kneeling, praying, communion etc...
    Why didn't you just stay at home? It wouldn't have hurt you to go through the motions of standing and kneeling. It would have been a mark of respect.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    Dades wrote: »
    Czarcasm, I assume the above was directed at the poster you quoted, as it appears from this thread that a large majority of non-believers do not engage in eye-rolling and muttering, and instead show due respect for the occasion, if not the religion. :)

    Yes Dades, sorry about that, it wasn't meant as taking a broad sweep at all the posters in here or their points of view. Another thing that struck me though was the whole objection to kneeling thing as if it made posters feel subservient to the church or god, I think it was yourself even posted the Zod video, but WHY it struck me was that posters felt that way for something they had no belief in anyway so why does it matter just to go through the motions? Hmm, I'm trying to think how can I explain that one better or think of an example to illustrate a similar position. It's a hard one because some atheists have much more of an intolerance of others beliefs than other atheists who really couldn't give a fiddlers. I think that's it-

    If you don't believe in a deity, then why give it any signifigance at all by making a point of not kneeling, standing, etc. I go to mass every sunday and nobody eyeballs me for not kneeling (I simply can't because I have arthritis in my knees!), but then I don't make a point of it myself either.

    I think SOME posters on this thread almost want to make a POINT of the fact that they are atheists and get noticed for it (not ALL posters!), and I imagine are almost disappointed when nobody takes any notice of them!

    I guess I'm just surprised by the amount of atheist posters who lament the "old catholic ireland traditions", yet toe the line for religious ceremonies to keep the peace within the family. If you believe in the lack of a deity (speaking generally to all atheists Dades, not any poster specifically), then have the courage at least to stand by your principles and don't p!ss and moan about having to participate in religious ceremonies when really, you don't actually HAVE to as nobody is actually twisting your elbow to be there!


    EDIT: Sorry, I meant to add too for the poster now I think of it that wasn't too sure where to put their hands when standing- I usually place my hands on the back of the pew in front of me to support myself as standing for me too can be a bit problematic and a pain in the... knees! :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 101 ✭✭car.kar


    I do the whole shebang... standing, kneeling, praying, communion etc...
    Ah here, just stand up.

    If it was your friend's funeral and they were an atheist, and you knew that your friend wanted all of their family and friends to just talk about his life and remember the good times, and someone started singing hymns and prayers about god, you'd be annoyed on behalf of your mate. Because its disrespectful to their beliefs.

    Your granddad was obviously religious and wanted his funeral in a church. You didn't have to sing, you didn't have to pray, you didn't have to take communion or anything of the sort, but if you went to the effort of even attending the mass, you might aswell just stand up. Otherwise you should have just worn your "I'm an atheist" jumper. You're in a church - do what church people do. If you were having an atheist funeral, you'd be annoyed if the christians attending to kneel down and start praying for the deceased person's soul.

    I stand and kneel in church because following the rules is the polite thing to do when you're in someone else's 'house' as such, regardless of what you believe - just don't pray or sing hymns.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,382 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    I stand and kneel along with everyone else.


    This is a remembrance mass for your mom’s/dad’s father and yet you have found a way to get the families attention on you.

    Grow up and stop making a fool of yourself. Everything in life is not about you or your pathetic attempts at teenage rebellion.


    Rgds,
    Sean
    Although I'd tend to agree in principle Sean, 'pathetic attempts at teenage rebellion' may be a little harsh. Principles are important at that age. The bigger picture sometimes escaped me from time to time as a young fella. As I'm sure it did every cynical adult reading this?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,953 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    I stand and kneel along with everyone else.
    endacl wrote: »
    Principles are important at that age.

    Unfortunately too many people 'learn' as they grow older to discard principle for pragmatism.

    In Cavan there was a great fire / Judge McCarthy was sent to inquire / It would be a shame / If the nuns were to blame / So it had to be caused by a wire.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,382 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    I stand and kneel along with everyone else.
    ninja900 wrote: »

    Unfortunately too many people 'learn' as they grow older to discard principle for pragmatism.
    Otherwise known as choosing your battles? Family occasions have never tended to make ideal battlegrounds...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,582 ✭✭✭swampgas


    I stand and kneel along with everyone else.
    Are you not disrespecting the Church and/or believers by just 'playing along with the routine'?

    More importantly, IMO, aren't you also disrespecting yourself?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,953 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    I stand and kneel along with everyone else.
    that'd be the height of ignorance. the reception is for the people who attended the wedding. you either go to the church, or don't go at all.

    Nonsense. Every wedding I've ever been to has had people at the reception who were not at the ceremony - often a substantial number. The couple would rather they attended the reception only (for whatever reason) than not at all. I've never received a wedding invitation that said 'you better turn up for the church, or else pizz off'
    if you receive a wedding invite, please do not contact the couple to let them know you'll just be attending the reception. it'd be rude and you'd be placing them in an awkward position. just say you can't go.

    More nonsense. There are all sorts of reasons why people only attend wedding receptions. Yet they are made feel welcome.
    I could invent a credible childcare excuse if it'd make them feel better.
    But if they really are such self-important prigs to demand compliance with the entire programme, or not at all, then I'd be more than happy to forgo the whole thing. Thankfully I don't know anyone who behaves like that.
    if i remember correctly, someone on here who was having a humanist ceremony was contacted by several people to ask was there any need to show up for the ceremony since they obviously reckoned it had no meaning.

    In fairness until humanist ceremonies are legally binding here then they could have a point :pac: If I'd had objections from devout Christians to attending my civil wedding ceremony I'd have been happy to accommodate that.

    As far as I'm aware though, there is no humanist control of 93% of schools ramming atheism down the throats of the kids of believers, they are not on hospital ethics committees forcing doctors to carry out abortions, they are not telling Christians they will suffer in eternity, they are not part of a worldwide conspiracy to facilitate and cover up the rape of children on a massive scale. There are plenty of valid reasons why many poeple like me find the Roman Catholic Church and everything to do with it reprehensible.
    iirc, the general consensus was if you're invited to a wedding, the wedding is the primary event and the reception the secondary one.

    Not in Ireland. The church is just to show off (almost always) and in any case the real event is the reception.
    I know couples who've never been in church since they left school, either of them, yet not doing the church wedding thing was unthinkable. If that's what they want (or are willing to go along with due to family pressure) then fine - but they know and I know that the church ceremony is only for the relatives and means nothing to these couples. They don't care if an athiest friend turns up at the church bit or not, precisely because the church ceremony means nothing to them, it's just to be seen to be doing the done thing for the relatives.
    i'd certainly consider it rude to ignore the wedding ceremony and turn up for the reception unless the circumstances were unavoidable.

    Plenty of people did that at my (civil) wedding, I didn't ask them to provide a doctor's note or anything, I was glad that they were able to make the reception part rather than not turn up at all.

    In Cavan there was a great fire / Judge McCarthy was sent to inquire / It would be a shame / If the nuns were to blame / So it had to be caused by a wire.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,953 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    I stand and kneel along with everyone else.
    endacl wrote: »
    Otherwise known as choosing your battles? Family occasions have never tended to make ideal battlegrounds...

    Battleground is the wrong attitude to take.
    Your family should accept you as you are, gay or straight, believer or atheist, whatever.
    If they can't accept that, that doesn't mean you should go along with being something that you're not. That never leads to a good place.

    In Cavan there was a great fire / Judge McCarthy was sent to inquire / It would be a shame / If the nuns were to blame / So it had to be caused by a wire.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Kiwi in IE


    I stand, but don't kneel.
    This seems like a silly, morbid question but what do athiests do here for funerals? At home we have funeral homes where you can have either a denominational or non religious service. Church funerals are rare, most people choose the funeral homes. It seems that here everyone has their funeral in a church.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    I stand and kneel along with everyone else.
    There's a bunch of threads to found about atheist funerals with the search function. Let's try and keep at least one thread on topic this month. :)


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,510 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    ninja900 wrote: »
    Nonsense. Every wedding I've ever been to has had people at the reception who were not at the ceremony - often a substantial number.
    i can honestly say that i can't remember an occasion where a friend had failed to turn up for the ceremony but turned up for the reception.

    looks like we'll have to agree to disagree anyway - it's one thing to miss the ceremony because you're late or cannot make it for legitimate reasons, and another thing entirely to miss the ceremony out of choice but still turn up for the meal. i think the latter is extremely rude.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Kiwi in IE


    I stand, but don't kneel.
    Dades wrote: »
    There's a bunch of threads to found about atheist funerals with the search function. Let's try and keep at least one thread on topic this month. :)

    Sorry. Appear to be bad at that! :)


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    I stand and kneel along with everyone else.
    You are by no means alone!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    ninja900 wrote: »
    Battleground is the wrong attitude to take.
    Your family should accept you as you are, gay or straight, believer or atheist, whatever.
    If they can't accept that, that doesn't mean you should go along with being something that you're not. That never leads to a good place.


    After having thought about this thread for the last while, I often think of things later that I could have mentioned earlier, and I was reminded of my brother's wedding. He and his wife are RC, as is most of my family, except for my sister, who is actually muslim (she converted, actually now I think of it, I don't think her husband was at the wedding ceremony, but he and their children were at the reception!).

    My sister was able to observe the catholic pilates (I'm loving that phrase! :D), but the reason most people will remember the ceremony, is for the woman that was sitting beside my sister in the front row, who decided to "fall asleep" and snore rather loudly, and when my sister nudged her to wake her up, she sniggered and snorted through the rest of the mass. Thanks mum! She made a complete tit of herself for god only knows why because she didn't possess the decorum to act in an appropriate and respectful manner.

    This is why some of the posts in the thread annoy me, It's not the fact that people are atheists at all, it's the fact that some posters lack the decorum to act in an appropriate and respectful manner as if they purposely have to go in and act in such a juvenile fashion simply "to prove a point". Most people there really couldn't give a fiddlers, and the only one the atheist person is truly embarrassing, is themselves.

    As I read through more and more threads in the forum too, it seems to bear out my initial thoughts that most atheists are what I call natural atheists- they have no grievance with religion, they just don't believe in a deity, and then there are a small minority who are what I call rebellious atheists- those who have become atheist purely because of their various issues with religion. The rebellious atheists are the type that I find annoying because they seem to go out of their way to make a statement of their rebellion.

    In my opinion, this only does a dis-service to atheism, because people would see them as a bit, well, "unhinged" and irrational, the very thing these rebellious atheists seem to want to dismiss people who believe in a deity for!

    As one poster mentioned earlier- you really DO have to pick your battles, and I understand they didn't mean battles in the aggressive sense of the word, but in the way that if you come across to people as a confrontational and arrogant person, they aren't going to give you much time, and so your message is lost, but if you talk to people, you have a much better chance of getting your message across than behaving like a juvenille and stroppy rebellious teenager with no regard for anybody but yourself.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,953 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    I stand and kneel along with everyone else.
    Dades wrote: »
    There's a bunch of threads to found about atheist funerals with the search function. Let's try and keep at least one thread on topic this month. :)

    Can we not show some Christian* decency to a new arrival to our forum, and at that, a foreigner?

    I know love bombing is a well known cultish tactic, but could we at least neutral-bomb :pac:

    * yes, yes, I know

    In Cavan there was a great fire / Judge McCarthy was sent to inquire / It would be a shame / If the nuns were to blame / So it had to be caused by a wire.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,953 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    I stand and kneel along with everyone else.
    Czarcasm wrote: »
    This is why some of the posts in the thread annoy me, It's not the fact that people are atheists at all, it's the fact that some posters lack the decorum to act in an appropriate and respectful manner as if they purposely have to go in and act in such a juvenile fashion simply "to prove a point". Most people there really couldn't give a fiddlers, and the only one the atheist person is truly embarrassing, is themselves.

    You'll find many posts from atheists here advocating NOT acting in a disrespectful fashion.
    Choosing not to take part in a religious ceremony you do not believe in is not disrespectful.
    As I pointed out earlier, taking part in a ceremony in which you do not believe may be regarded as disrespectful. If you don't believe in it it's meaningless at best, so why do it if you do not believe in it?
    As I read through more and more threads in the forum too, it seems to bear out my initial thoughts that most atheists are what I call natural atheists- they have no grievance with religion, they just don't believe in a deity, and then there are a small minority who are what I call rebellious atheists- those who have become atheist purely because of their various issues with religion. The rebellious atheists are the type that I find annoying because they seem to go out of their way to make a statement of their rebellion.

    I think you'll find a lot of rebellious atheists here (and thank you for the description.) We were brought up in the Irish=RCC hegemony and don't want our kids' brains to be filled with the same nonsense.

    Even if the indescribably horrid child rape never happened, I'd feel exactly the same about RCC control of education. It's wrong to have religion of any kind force-fed along with education. Even if it's not a religion that facilitates and excuses child rape.

    This objection to the RCC is well founded, it is not being 'annoying'. Your 'natural atheist' thing is crap, any atheist would be appalled at the control of civil society the RCC has, and object strongly, whatever their own upbringing was. It's not 'anti-catholic' to object to RCC control, it's 'pro-secular' which is a noble goal and benefits those of all religions and no religion.
    In my opinion, this only does a dis-service to atheism, because people would see them as a bit, well, "unhinged" and irrational, the very thing these rebellious atheists seem to want to dismiss people who believe in a deity for!

    It's belief in an invisible, untouchable, non-detectable by any sense or science, being which is truly irrational. Sorry, I'm not in a mood to sugar coat it for you.
    As one poster mentioned earlier- you really DO have to pick your battles, and I understand they didn't mean battles in the aggressive sense of the word, but in the way that if you come across to people as a confrontational and arrogant person, they aren't going to give you much time, and so your message is lost, but if you talk to people, you have a much better chance of getting your message across than behaving like a juvenille and stroppy rebellious teenager with no regard for anybody but yourself.

    Mmm. You can't really get more arrogant than 'have you been saved'? 'Unbelievers are going to hell' and that sort of thing.

    In Cavan there was a great fire / Judge McCarthy was sent to inquire / It would be a shame / If the nuns were to blame / So it had to be caused by a wire.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,382 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    I stand and kneel along with everyone else.
    ninja900 wrote: »
    Battleground is the wrong attitude to take.

    Your family should accept you as you are, gay or straight, believer or atheist, whatever.

    If they can't accept that, that doesn't mean you should go along with being something that you're not. That never leads to a good place.
    I agree entirely. That's why I'd advise the OP not to take such a confrontational stance with his family.

    Absolutely. And that respect should be reciprocated. The OP is not being asked to believe. Just to sit in a church with his family, remembering and commemorating a (presumed) loved one. What harm?

    There's no suggestion his beliefs (or lack of) is not being respected. He certainly could be perceived as disrespectful in stubbornly refusing to participate in the catholic calisthenics.

    There's no harm in it. If I go to a friend or family member's wedding or funeral, my mind will be on the friend or family member in question. The occasion. Not the ritual.

    My sister got married a couple of years ago, and a very good friend of theirs is an Indian Hindu. He got involved in the hoppin' and jumpin'. Didn't take communion. Same as meself. Neither believed in the supernatural elements of the ceremony, but we were both fully involved in sharing the happy couples big day.

    As an aside, my sister honoured me by asking me to give her away on the day. Should I have refused? Because it was in a church? Or would that have been daft? I'll be godfather to her second child in a couple of weeks. I agreed immediately when asked. To refuse wouldn't have been 'standing on principle'. It would have been 'being an arse'.

    I don't believe for a second in the holygod elements of the christening. Neither does my sis, as it happens. That's her business. Nor does her daughter who'll be having her head splashed, but she'll be free to join this forum in her own good time. ;) But I'm happy to commit to taking a special interest in her daughter as long as we're both alive. Does this make me a hypocrite. I don't care. I'll respect all assembled there present and hope that respect would be returned. If its not, no skin off my nose.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,382 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    I stand and kneel along with everyone else.
    Dades wrote: »
    Let's try and keep at least one thread on topic this month. :)
    Oh Holy Mother of Unforeseen Tangents, pray for us!!

    :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,382 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    I stand and kneel along with everyone else.
    ninja900 wrote: »
    Mmm. You can't really get more arrogant than 'have you been saved'? 'Unbelievers are going to hell' and that sort of thing.
    In fairness now, that's more a feature of new Evangelical nutjobs than the RC church here, Legion of Mary/Opus Dei etc excepted. You're unlikely to hear it at an Irish wedding/funeral.

    I get what you're saying. It only annoys you if you let it though. I don't care if people think I'm going to hell. I have the odd private giggle when I imagine them in the life after death, when they look for me in the queue to clock in with Peter. Their glee at the fact that I'm nowhere to be seen is short-lived, as they realise in short sequence that Peter is also not there, and neither are they!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,382 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    I stand and kneel along with everyone else.
    Holy Jebus! I'm leaving an awful batter o' posts here!

    Isn't it lovely to see the lack of dogma in this thread though? Wonder how it would fare 'across the fence'...?

    :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,953 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    I stand and kneel along with everyone else.
    endacl wrote: »
    I don't believe for a second in the holygod elements of the christening. Neither does my sis, as it happens. That's her business. Nor does her daughter who'll be having her head splashed, but she'll be free to join this forum in her own good time. ;) But I'm happy to commit to taking a special interest in her daughter as long as we're both alive. Does this make me a hypocrite. I don't care. I'll respect all assembled there present and hope that respect would be returned. If its not, no skin off my nose.

    If you're making promises which you have no intention of carrying through, in terms of indocrinating the child in a particular religious belief, then yes you are absolutely a hypocrite. That's not to say that the failure to indoctrinate is detrimental to the child :) quite the opposite imho
    I made similar promises many years ago and I deeply regret it now. I wish I had had the courage to declare then what I really believed (or rather, didn't believe) in.

    In Cavan there was a great fire / Judge McCarthy was sent to inquire / It would be a shame / If the nuns were to blame / So it had to be caused by a wire.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,382 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    I stand and kneel along with everyone else.
    ninja900 wrote: »
    If you're making promises which you have no intention of carrying through, in terms of indocrinating the child in a particular religious belief, then yes you are absolutely a hypocrite. That's not to say that the failure to indoctrinate is detrimental to the child :) quite the opposite imho
    I made similar promises many years ago and I deeply regret it now. I wish I had had the courage to declare then what I really believed (or rather, didn't believe) in.
    If it was my day, I'd declare it. Its not. My sister and her husband asked my to do something rather special. They are fully aware of and comfortable with my atheism. I'll hold the child and commit to look out for her welfare and happiness. The priest's interpretation of this commitment is his own affair. I won't take him all that seriously. He'll be wearing a dress...

    I will know what I'll mean. As will the parents. As will the child, in time.

    Child in time! A soundtrack to late night boardsin' suggests itself!



    :D


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,824 ✭✭✭ShooterSF


    I stand and kneel along with everyone else.
    endacl wrote: »
    As an aside, my sister honoured me by asking me to give her away on the day. Should I have refused? Because it was in a church? Or would that have been daft? I'll be godfather to her second child in a couple of weeks. I agreed immediately when asked. To refuse wouldn't have been 'standing on principle'. It would have been 'being an arse'.

    That's a bit unfair. While I'm happy you can go through with it, if my sister ever had kids, as her only sibling, she might ask but I'll have to refuse. I don't agree with the idea of baptism and couldn't offer to fulfil the requirements it would put on me. Now some people might say that's being an arse but then some people have already said that if you can't go through the ritual then you should point blank refuse! So it seems I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place (hopefully not a priest's "hard place" it's dark in here)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,382 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    I stand and kneel along with everyone else.
    ShooterSF wrote: »

    That's a bit unfair. While I'm happy you can go through with it, if my sister ever had kids, as her only sibling, she might ask but I'll have to refuse. I don't agree with the idea of baptism and couldn't offer to fulfil the requirements it would put on me. Now some people might say that's being an arse but then some people have already said that if you can't go through the ritual then you should point blank refuse! So it seems I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place (hopefully not a priest's "hard place" it's dark in here)
    That'd be your decision Shooter. I'd respect that. I can play the role. I'd rather she wasn't baptised, but then I'd rather nobody was baptised. It's not my choice to make, and nor should it be. On any level.

    It's their choice, their day. They are important to me. Refusing to take part would make me an arse. In my eyes. Doesn't necessarily follow it would make you one. We don't do dogma over here...


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    I stand and kneel along with everyone else.
    Czarcasm wrote: »
    This is why some of the posts in the thread annoy me, It's not the fact that people are atheists at all, it's the fact that some posters lack the decorum to act in an appropriate and respectful manner as if they purposely have to go in and act in such a juvenile fashion simply "to prove a point". Most people there really couldn't give a fiddlers, and the only one the atheist person is truly embarrassing, is themselves.
    Let's be clear - some of posts in this thread annoy most of us. The idea that you wouldn't stand in a church, or that you'd skip a wedding ceremony altogether is behavior most wouldn't engage in (see the poll for more). So this isn't an "atheist" trait, but an individual trait. You seem intent on making general comments when in fact you should be quoting certain responses only.
    Czarcasm wrote: »
    As I read through more and more threads in the forum too, it seems to bear out my initial thoughts that most atheists are what I call natural atheists- they have no grievance with religion, they just don't believe in a deity, and then there are a small minority who are what I call rebellious atheists- those who have become atheist purely because of their various issues with religion. The rebellious atheists are the type that I find annoying because they seem to go out of their way to make a statement of their rebellion.
    All atheist are atheists because they have an issue with religion... i.e. the lack of any evidence to suggest any of it is true! People aren't atheists because they don't *like* religion, or because they *reject* God. You either believe it's true or you don't. What happens after that is down to the individuals attitude toward the religion and those who practice/preach it.

    Religious people generally find vocal atheists annoying as religion is used to being immune to criticism. It doesn't cope well with uncomfortable questions or the thought of losing it's grip on it's flock. Believers as per the most vocal ones in the media peddle ridiculous notions of what a secular society would mean for us, ignoring the horrors that were perpetrated behind closed doors in times when the cloth ruled the country.
    Czarcasm wrote: »
    In my opinion, this only does a dis-service to atheism, because people would see them as a bit, well, "unhinged" and irrational, the very thing these rebellious atheists seem to want to dismiss people who believe in a deity for!
    It's only a dis-service to atheism when observers cannot separate one individual as being an atheist, and another as being anti-theist.
    Czarcasm wrote: »
    As one poster mentioned earlier- you really DO have to pick your battles, and I understand they didn't mean battles in the aggressive sense of the word, but in the way that if you come across to people as a confrontational and arrogant person, they aren't going to give you much time, and so your message is lost, but if you talk to people, you have a much better chance of getting your message across than behaving like a juvenille and stroppy rebellious teenager with no regard for anybody but yourself.
    Agreed! Insofar as we're talking about the way the 'battle' has been fought by certain posters on this thread. :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    It's true Dades I was trying to make a more general comment on the whole decorum in a religious place rather than quoting posters specifically because I figured that might come across as attacking the poster and not the post and might be seen as me being confrontational. I actually only wandered into the thread off the boards home page and that post I initially quoted wasn't meant to come across as having any particular objection to the poster, but just the way an atheist would use the expression "throwing their eyes up to heaven", and then nobody else spotted it, I just thought it was funny in an ironic way was all... :o

    I was only browsing boards on the mobile at the minute, I don't usually post from mobile because of dreaded JSON errors and timeouts making it a pain in the proverbial, so I was waiting til later when I could make a proper post, but when I saw your post I just thought I had better make a reply to make it clear that I'm by no means a fire and brimstone catholic, etc, nor do I in any way tacitly approve of the abuses of the hierarchy carried out in the name of the catholic church (my own view on that is that these scum were pedophiles and pederasts before they were ever priests, and the way the hierarchy of the church was set up, enabled them to indulge their proclivities).

    I may not be an eloquent wordsmith, but I didn't want my posts to be seen as trolling or disrespectful to any of the posters in here either.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    I stand and kneel along with everyone else.
    It's all good. :)

    I've probably seen too many threads where newcomers read a minority of posts and assume the views expressed are shared by all atheists.

    A belated welcome to you... do stick around!


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 211 ✭✭Maggie 2


    I do the whole shebang... standing, kneeling, praying, communion etc...
    "I'll be godfather to her second child in a couple of weeks."
    How hypocritical! What the hell are you doing agreeing to do something you don't believe in? A Godfather swears to help bring the child up as eg Catholic. How can you do that if you don't believe? Starting off on a lie is not a good start!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,382 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    I stand and kneel along with everyone else.
    Maggie 2 wrote: »
    "I'll be godfather to her second child in a couple of weeks."
    How hypocritical! What the hell are you doing agreeing to do something you don't believe in? A Godfather swears to help bring the child up as eg Catholic. How can you do that if you don't believe? Starting off on a lie is not a good start!
    Chill pill Maggie!

    It is hypocritical. Its also a family occasion. If I refused to be godfather but still attended, I'd still be a hypocrite by participating. I've explained why I'm OK with it. I get why you're not, and while I'm tempted to reply 'none of your business', that would be a bit cowardly. I'll try again....

    My sister is atheist. Her husband is not. Her child is a child. I'm the uncle. My sister and her husband, both of whom I respect and value greatly and who know well my position in matters of faith, have asked me to take a unique position in the life of their daughter. I agreed. I won't be assisting raising the child catholic. Neither will her parents. Their reasons for baptism are their own business. I will take my commitment to the child seriously. Just not in matters of faith. That will be her own business in the fullness of time,

    There is hypocrisy inherent in the situation. My regard for family however, outweighs my disdain for the church. It is something I've thought about. This is the decision I've come to. My atheism is my business. Yours is yours. This is a good thing Maggie. Individual choices with no judgement. Isn't that what we all want?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,484 ✭✭✭username123


    endacl wrote: »
    Chill pill Maggie!

    I agree with Maggie. Why on earth would someone who is atheist agree to be a godfather, and by doing so, participate in further indoctrination when you are expected to hold the candle at various ceremonies like communion and stand for them at confirmation!! Its because of this kind of sham behaviour that the catholic church has the hold it has in this country. If people who didnt believe actually didnt participate and encourage the play acting then the church would have less power.

    Just bizarre. No judgement man, but just weird!!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,382 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    I stand and kneel along with everyone else.
    I agree with Maggie. Why on earth would someone who is atheist agree to be a godfather, and by doing so, participate in further indoctrination when you are expected to hold the candle at various ceremonies like communion and stand for them at confirmation!! Its because of this kind of sham behaviour that the catholic church has the hold it has in this country. If people who didnt believe actually didnt participate and encourage the play acting then the church would have less power.

    Just bizarre. No judgement man, but just weird!!
    I get what you're saying 123. Next time I'm accused of militancy I'll point them in the direction of this thread. I suspect they'll find it just as offensive. Funny that... :confused:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,484 ✭✭✭username123


    endacl wrote: »
    I get what you're saying 123. Next time I'm accused of militancy I'll point them in the direction of this thread. I suspect they'll find it just as offensive. Funny that... :confused:

    As I said, no judgement, but it is weird and it does have the unintended consequence of empowering the church - but sure, none of us believe in that malarkus ;)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,382 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    I stand and kneel along with everyone else.

    As I said, no judgement, but it is weird and it does have the unintended consequence of empowering the church - but sure, none of us believe in that malarkus ;)
    And my not taking part would prevent what exactly...?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,484 ✭✭✭username123


    endacl wrote: »
    And my not taking part would prevent what exactly...?

    Imagine if everyone who felt like you stopped participating.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    Imagine if everyone who felt like you stopped participating.

    This is like the voting argument. He doesn't have the power to control what other people do - and certainly not what everyone else does. I don't like participating in masses either, but I honestly think arguing here is more like to have an impact on our society than sulking over a ceremony.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,484 ✭✭✭username123


    Zillah wrote: »
    This is like the voting argument. He doesn't have the power to control what other people do - and certainly not what everyone else does. I don't like participating in masses either, but I honestly think arguing here is more like to have an impact on our society than sulking over a ceremony.

    Elections have been lost or won on just a small number of votes you know ;)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,582 ✭✭✭swampgas


    I stand and kneel along with everyone else.
    I like the idea that non-adherents are in some way identifiable, for example they might be the ones that are sitting while everyone else is kneeling. At least that way when a time comes where there are more people sitting than kneeling, maybe we can all stop playing along.

    If the believers and non-believers are indistinguishable, all standing,kneeling and muttering, then it's possible that the church could be full of unbelievers, all unaware of each others existence. And that would be silly.


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