Having to go to church: Should I stand?

Rory McNicholas

I recently attended an anniversary mass for my grandfather. Being an atheist, I quietly sat in the same row as my family, staying seated while the congregation stood. My parents respect that I am an atheist, but think it was rude and disrespectful of me to not stand. Are they right? Should I stand when everyone else does? I personally don't think I have to do that to pay my respects.

GLaDOS

I stand and kneel along with everyone else.

Personally I don't mind the standing, it's the kneeling that grates.

That said, do what you like tbh. It's not your religion, you're only there out of love for your grandfather, no reason for you to follow customs that mean nothing to you.

Rory McNicholas

I stand, but don't kneel.

ScienceNerd wrote: »

Personally I don't mind the standing, it's the kneeling that grates.

But do you stand up?

pontia

would it have killed you to stand,seems you wanted to make a point

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

I stand and kneel, mainly because I don't want the bastard behind me looking down on my dandruff or sticking his face into the back of my head

GLaDOS

I stand and kneel along with everyone else.

Rory McNicholas wrote: »

But do you stand up?

I'd usually stand yeah, usually skip the kneeling.

superblu

For the sake of 3 quarters of an hour could u not have just done whatever needed to be done.

Rory McNicholas

I stand, but don't kneel.

pontia wrote: »

would it have killed you to stand,seems you wanted to make a point

Well, I'm not Catholic, therefore I don't partake in their ceremonies. I know it's just a small thing, but small things add up. I have to go to the church with my religion class and waste time sitting at the back while they pray when I could be in school studying ('Insurance issues' they said...) and all those trips add up to a lot of time not well spent. If I had it my way I'd do something like meet up with my family and talk about the person in question, not listen to a priest and stand when he tells me to. I'm not a sheep, therefore I do not follow the herd.

Rory McNicholas

I stand, but don't kneel.

superblu wrote: »

For the sake of 3 quarters of an hour could u not have just done whatever needed to be done.

Why does it need to be done? If your a Catholic maybe, but I'm not. Why should I have to stand just because they do? I wouldn't do something just because the majority are.

paudgenator

Rory McNicholas wrote: »

I recently attended an anniversary mass for my grandfather. Being an atheist, I quietly sat in the same row as my family, staying seated while the congregation stood. My parents respect that I am an atheist, but think it was rude and disrespectful of me to not stand. Are they right? Should I stand when everyone else does? I personally don't think I have to do that to pay my respects.

The way I look at it is if you are going to the effort of attending the mass (I assume for the sake of your family, and to pay your respect to your grandfather's memory) why not just follow the congregation's actions for the sake of them too? Otherwise why go at all? No need to attract attention, especially if your parents respect you being an atheist - they already know you are doing this gesture for your grandfather. Why cause them stress on the day...

aaakev

I stand, but don't kneel.

I havent stood, kneeled or taken comunion at any mass in years, its inly the weddings, funerals, comunions or christenings i go to.

StillWaters

I do the whole shebang... standing, kneeling, praying, communion etc...

Rory McNicholas wrote: »

I recently attended an anniversary mass for my grandfather. Being an atheist, I quietly sat in the same row as my family, staying seated while the congregation stood. My parents respect that I am an atheist, but think it was rude and disrespectful of me to not stand. Are they right? Should I stand when everyone else does? I personally don't think I have to do that to pay my respects.

Of course you stand! I have been privileged to be invited to a Hindu wedding, CoI ceremonies, Humanist funeral, and Greek Orthodox Baptism. In all cases I accepted graciously and followed the lead if what was expected re standing, kneeling, singing, dancing etc.

I think it would be incredibly rude of me to remain sitting just because I am not a Hindu / Protestant etc.

You have been invited as a guest to attend this ritual which is of great importance to your host. either decline the invitation if your principles are so strong, or accept and do so graciously.

What point were you making OP?

J0hnick

I stand and kneel along with everyone else.

I'm OK with standing, its kneeling I wont do. I had a similar incident at the last family funeral I attended, I sat for the whole thing and didn't care what anyone else thought, my immediate family know I'm an atheist and my dad even joked about it after.

Unfortunately I cant say the same for the last wedding I attended, it was my girlfriends cousins wedding so none of my family was there, and only my girlfriend and her parents knew I was an atheist. When the priest asked everyone to kneel I stayed seated, hoping I wasn't the only person to stay seated, until I looked around and realized the whole place was staring at me and the misses was giving me daggers, so begrudgingly and to avoid confrontation, I knelt .

What they couldn't stop me from doing though was kneeling in the most unenthusiastic way, throwing my eyes up to heaven, muttering stuff quietly to myself, and shaking my head whenever the priest would quote scripture and claim that it was all gods work that the couple had met and fallen in love ... followed by a hymn about how great god is ... and me face palming (literally) during the readings when they told the story about Eve being a rib lady.

My girlfriend even said to me afterwards "did you even know you were doing that inside ?", she was a little embarrassed and even a little angry at me, but I couldn't help it.

TheChizler

I stand and kneel along with everyone else.

Standing and sitting but no kneeling is a reasonable compromise. Always at a similar level so you don't stand out too much.

pontia

you still in school ? for the sake of a few minutes i would stuggle on to stand when rest did,

Max Q

paudgenator wrote: »

The way I look at it is if you are going to the effort of attending the mass (I assume for the sake of your family, and to pay your respect to your grandfather's memory) why not just follow the congregation's actions for the sake of them too? Otherwise why go at all? No need to attract attention, especially if your parents respect you being an atheist - they already know you are doing this gesture for your grandfather. Why cause them stress on the day...

Agreed. If you were just going out of respect for your grandfather then I don't see any problem in following the congregations actions for the sake of the occasion.

I occasionally accompany my family to mass on Christmas Eve, more out of respect for my parents and their wishes to go to mass as a family at Christmas. They know I'm a committed atheist and that I disagree with the Catholic church on virtually everything. However, if I'm making the effort to go as a gesture I will go through the motions rather than attempt to stage a mini-protest during the ceremony. Just my 2c.

J0hnick

I stand and kneel along with everyone else.

pontia wrote: »

you still in school ?

No, I'm 34.

pontia

J0hnick wrote: »

I'm OK with standing, its kneeling I wont do. I had a similar incident at the last family funeral I attended, I sat for the whole thing and didn't care what anyone else thought, my immediate family know I'm an atheist and my dad even joked about it after.

Unfortunately I cant say the same for the last wedding I attended, it was my girlfriends cousins wedding so none of my family was there, and only my girlfriend and her parents knew I was an atheist. When the priest asked everyone to kneel I stayed seated, hoping I wasn't the only person to stay seated, until I looked around and realized the whole place was staring at me and the misses was giving me daggers, so begrudgingly and to avoid confrontation, I knelt .

What they couldn't stop me from doing though was kneeling in the most unenthusiastic way, throwing my eyes up to heaven, muttering stuff quietly to myself, and shaking my head whenever the priest would quote scripture and claim that it was all gods work that the couple had met and fallen in love ... followed by a hymn about how great god is ... and me face palming (literally) during the readings when they told the story about Eve being a rib lady.

My girlfriend even said to me afterwards "did you even know you were doing that inside ?", she was a little embarrassed and even a little angry at me, but I couldn't help it.

if it was that much of an issue maybe you should have stayed at home,sounds like you had little respect for girlfriend or bride and groom

ShooterSF

I stand and kneel along with everyone else.

Ill stand but mostly because my knees hurt sitting. I dont pray so i dont kneel. Dont mind people complaining, Ive had catholics ask why i didnt bless myself and on explanation instead of offering their acceptance or even apology for assuming I wad one, they tut. You meet ignorant people. Thats life.

StillWaters

I do the whole shebang... standing, kneeling, praying, communion etc...

J0hnick wrote: »

My girlfriend even said to me afterwards "did you even know you were doing that inside ?", she was a little embarrassed and even a little angry at me, but I couldn't help it.

Really? You're going to have to work on the self control a bit. That was very rude as a guest at the wedding. Would you have done the same any other organised religious ceremony, muslim, Jewish etc. It is SO disrepectful.

matrim

I stand and kneel along with everyone else.

Same as a few others here I'll stand but don't bother kneeling.

The standing is partly to avoid being at ass level with everyone around me and partly so it's easier to people watch to stop myself getting bored. There have been a few times where I haven't bothered but that was mainly because I'd sore legs from football.

feelgoodinc27

Rory McNicholas wrote: »

Well, I'm not Catholic, therefore I don't partake in their ceremonies. I know it's just a small thing, but small things add up. I have to go to the church with my religion class and waste time sitting at the back while they pray when I could be in school studying ('Insurance issues' they said...) and all those trips add up to a lot of time not well spent. If I had it my way I'd do something like meet up with my family and talk about the person in question, not listen to a priest and stand when he tells me to. I'm not a sheep, therefore I do not follow the herd.

You could argue that going to mass is following the herd, but partaking in the ceremony of mass would hardly make you a sheep. Personally if I saw someone at mass who didn't kneel or stand I would assume you had an injury or some other medical condition. Once you're not interfering with other peoples participation its hardly an issue.

Would the school not let you bring your schoolbooks to church with you?

Zombrex

Rory McNicholas wrote: »

I recently attended an anniversary mass for my grandfather. Being an atheist, I quietly sat in the same row as my family, staying seated while the congregation stood. My parents respect that I am an atheist, but think it was rude and disrespectful of me to not stand. Are they right? Should I stand when everyone else does? I personally don't think I have to do that to pay my respects.

I stand but I don't kneel. Standing is generally considered a social respect thing, not just in church but in general (ie you stand when the Queen enters, you stand when the bride enters the church etc), so I'm happy to respect that action.

Kneeling in a church is part of the act of praying, and since I'm not praying I don't kneel, that would seem dishonest.

J0hnick

I stand and kneel along with everyone else.

pontia wrote: »

if it was that much of an issue maybe you should have stayed at home

It was a weekender in another part of the country so that wasn't an option, I knew once that part was over the rest would be fine, which is was.

pontia wrote: »

sounds like you had little respect for girlfriend

Far from it, been together nearly 5 years and love each other to bits.

pontia wrote: »

or bride and groom

Never met either till that weekend so, whatever, but they turned out to be lovely people and had great craic with them the whole weekend.

Edit - I did shake hands during the sign of peace, nothing wrong with shaking someones hand and saying peace be with you, that was me at my most enthusiastic.

kylith

I stand and kneel along with everyone else.

I too will stand, but not kneel. I mentally renovate the church into a house to pass the time.

grindle

I stand, but don't kneel.

Ignore everybody that told you to stand or kneel.
I regularly sit through this kind of ceremony, and my parents know better than to start with the claptrap (although my father still wonders why I won't throw a few bob to the church - what, so I can pay for the new parish car? Hide a few more stray paedophiles? Corrupt more people in poor countries with infantile fantasies? Yay! The status quo! Let's keep that going! :rolleyes:)

Do what you want to do. Pay respect how you want to pay respect.
If somebody has a problem, it's exactly that - their problem. View it as such.

ShooterSF

I stand and kneel along with everyone else.

feelgoodinc27 wrote: »

You could argue that going to mass is following the herd, but partaking in the ceremony of mass would hardly make you a sheep. Personally if I saw someone at mass who didn't kneel or stand I would assume you had an injury or some other medical condition. Once you're not interfering with other peoples participation its hardly an issue.

But kneeling is done to pray. Should the OP clasp their hands together and pretend to murmur something as well? Isn't communion part of mass?

The OP attended out of respect to his/her family and probably to think about his/her loss, to expect them to carry out all the extras seems silly. His/her standing and kneeling is not going to affect those that actually believe they are talking to god and I'd argue playing along belittles the beliefs of those that are there as actual christians. If it was a funeral of an atheist's direct family would you expect them to play along to the congression's beliefs just to not upset them?

pontia

you could have got all the chips on your shoulders and provided the meal for the reception.seems to be making things arkward for the sake of it,been at enough crappy weddings,didint act the child on someone elses big day

grindle

I stand, but don't kneel.

It's not "acting the child", it's "not doing a stupid thing for no reason".

feelgoodinc27

ShooterSF wrote: »

But kneeling is done to pray. Should the OP clasp their hands together and pretend to murmur something as well? Isn't communion part of mass?

The OP attended out of respect to his/her family and probably to think about his/her loss, to expect them to carry out all the extras seems silly. His/her standing and kneeling is not going to affect those that actually believe they are talking to god and I'd argue playing along belittles the beliefs of those that are there as actual christians. If it was a funeral of an atheist's direct family would you expect them to play along to the congression's beliefs just to not upset them?

The part of my post you have an issue with isn't really directed at the OP more their assertion that by partaking in mass that people were mindlessly following the herd. My point is that the vast majority of people attending mass are believers thus the point in coming to mass is to take part in it.

Havermeyer

I stand and kneel along with everyone else.

The last time I was in a church was for a funeral.

I stood up for the simple reason that I didn't want to be staring at an arse while they did their standy bit, but when it came to kneeling, I just sat forward so the person behind me wasn't poking me in the back with their nose.

I'm not too bothered about what other people think about my not taking part. I gave up religion a long time ago.

I'm there out of respect for the deceased. Not out of respect for their beliefs.

superblu

Rory McNicholas wrote: »

Why does it need to be done? If your a Catholic maybe, but I'm not. Why should I have to stand just because they do? I wouldn't do something just because the majority are.

I suppose it's just a question of taking 1 for the team. My parents are very anti drink. I don't drink in front of them out of respect. I'm not too hot on mass but I still go along and go thru the motions. I actually find mass a good time to be alone with your thoughts and just have a good spacing out session. This can be done kneeling, sitting and standing. Maybe don't bother going up for communion if you want to make a point but other than that I'd just suck it up, get on with it and not think about it too much.

Zombrex

pontia wrote: »

you could have got all the chips on your shoulders and provided the meal for the reception.seems to be making things arkward for the sake of it,been at enough crappy weddings,didint act the child on someone elses big day

Lol, when was the last time you saw a child sitting quietly in church not doing anything

Dr Turk Turkelton

J0hnick wrote: »

I'm OK with standing, its kneeling I wont do. I had a similar incident at the last family funeral I attended, I sat for the whole thing and didn't care what anyone else thought, my immediate family know I'm an atheist and my dad even joked about it after.

Unfortunately I cant say the same for the last wedding I attended, it was my girlfriends cousins wedding so none of my family was there, and only my girlfriend and her parents knew I was an atheist. When the priest asked everyone to kneel I stayed seated, hoping I wasn't the only person to stay seated, until I looked around and realized the whole place was staring at me and the misses was giving me daggers, so begrudgingly and to avoid confrontation, I knelt .

What they couldn't stop me from doing though was kneeling in the most unenthusiastic way, throwing my eyes up to heaven, muttering stuff quietly to myself, and shaking my head whenever the priest would quote scripture and claim that it was all gods work that the couple had met and fallen in love ... followed by a hymn about how great god is ... and me face palming (literally) during the readings when they told the story about Eve being a rib lady.

My girlfriend even said to me afterwards "did you even know you were doing that inside ?", she was a little embarrassed and even a little angry at me, but I couldn't help it.

You seem like a proper d1ckhead.
You were part of a ceremony that you were invited to by the bride and groom and decieded to act the rebel because no one knew you.

You should not have gone if you have that little respect for your girlfriend or the people who got married and were generous enough to invite you to their special day.

pontia

Zombrex wrote: »

Lol, when was the last time you saw a child sitting quietly in church not doing anything

yeah,good reply,expect more from a kid,no issues

nkay1985

I'm like a lot of people here, it would seem. I stand when the others stand but I sit when they kneel. Seems like a reasonable compromise to me.

grindle

I stand, but don't kneel.

nkay1985 wrote: »

I'm like a lot of people here, it would seem. I stand when the others stand but I sit when they kneel. Seems like a reasonable compromise to me.

Not to sound like a mother BUT

If they jumped off a cliff, would you?

That saying has a very simple meaning.

If people do something stupid, would you (should you) do it too?

Your answer says yes. What's reasonable about that?

If you understood what the word 'reasonable' meant, you'd be telling him to go from pew to pew trying to convert Christians to a state of ideological skepticism.
THAT would be reasonable.
Suggesting the opposite would be (very) easily defined as insanity.

pontia

your an arsehole it appears

grindle

I stand, but don't kneel.

Go on, humour me with your deepest insights.

What makes me, somebody who doesn't just bend to any ridiculous cultural whim an arsehole?

Or did you mean to quote yourself, but forgot? I can't be sure, and wouldn't like to cast aspersions. Just want to make sure.

pontia

were talking about a mans funeral.a couples wedding,both should retain an element of respect from people irrespective of their beliefs,anything besides that is ignorant,

Peregrinus

Going to a wedding mass or a funeral mass or a memorial mass or the like is participating in a communal ritual, and if an atheist goes to one of these it is presumably because, while rejecting or disregarding the theistic elements, they still see value in participating in the communal ritual.

It's a ritual, participation in which involves more than mere presence. Obviously an atheist will want to avoid anything which is inherently offensive to them, or which it would be simply dishonest of them to do - e.g. receiving communion, leading a prayer - but, up to that point, the point about participating in a communal ritual is that you participate in it. So if part of the shared experience is shared posture - standing, sitting, kneeling - then I suggest the default should be that you adopt the common posture, unless it would be inherently dishonest or offensive.

A lot of contributors to this thread seem happy to stand, but not to kneel, and I think that makes sense, though obviously everyone must make up their own mind about what is dishonest for them.

Avoid the eye-rolling, face-palming, etc. That's just childish. The healthiest attitude is that you will participate in this ritual to the fullest extent that your convictions allow, because the ritual, and the event it marks, matters to you and to your family or community. If you can't or won't participate in that spirit it would probably be wiser, and would certainly be more virtuous, to stay away

pontia

good to see some sense,fair play

endacl

I stand and kneel along with everyone else.

Rory McNicholas wrote: »

I'm not a sheep, therefore I do not follow the herd.

Neither do sheep Rory. They flock.

At least you get to semi-officially not take part in school. Wasn't like that in my day!

As regards the funeral, I get your objection. And your passion for your principles. At the risk of sounding patronizing, I remember being a teenager too...

Stand when they stand. Kneel when they kneel. You already sit when they sit, so you get most of the mass the way you want it, don't you? It's not a big deal, and its in memory of your grandad. Most people won't care what you do, once you don't make the mass all about Rory the Not-A-Catholic. It's only 'giving in' if you first make a fuss over it.

If you haven't made a fuss, you'll get by with the sit when they kneel thing. I've been doing it for years. Only once or twice a year at family things, but that's my compromise.

robindch

I stand and kneel along with everyone else.

pontia wrote: »

[...] an element of respect from people irrespective of their beliefs, anything besides that is ignorant,

pontia wrote: »

your an arsehole it appears

If cards were handed out for irony, pontia would get one. As it is, he/she gets one for just being rude.

Cuchulainn1. wrote: »

You seem like a proper d1ckhead. [...] You should not have gone if you have that little respect [...]

Likewise.

Columbia

You should have stood. If you choose to walk into a church, you need to respect the beliefs of that denomination, no exceptions.

Dave!

I guess it's conspicuous displays of protest that upsets the congregation. Which is fair enough. It's their place of worship, not some public building - if you can't go without making a scene, then you shouldn't go.

I stand but don't kneel. Kneeling is awful hard work.

nozzferrahhtoo

I stand and kneel along with everyone else.

I stand when every one else does when I have to go to church for the sole reason that I like to keep my view. I hate being at any show where I can not see the stage so if they stand I have to aswell.

I therefore have no requirement to kneel however. When everyone else starts groveling and prostrating themselves, I get the perfect view.

B9K9

I stand and kneel along with everyone else.

I have always sat and stood but not knelt; the kneeling felt culturally submissive which I cannot do. Seems this is the most common position/attitude. Nobody except my wife has ever chided me on this.

JuliusCaesar

B9K9 wrote: »

I have always sat and stood but not knelt; the kneeling felt culturally submissive which I cannot do. Seems this is the most common position/attitude.

ditto. Kneeling is a step too far.

Tasden

I do the whole shebang... standing, kneeling, praying, communion etc...

I recently attended a family members funeral. I stood and knelt and also did a reading. Out of respect for the deceased.

People give out about certain people shoving religion down their throat, catholic schools, not respecting non believers etc. yet when they are in a place of worship they insist on making a stand about their own beliefs/lack thereof. Bit hypocritical.

Personally I think if you're in a place of worship you should do as is expected to a certain point out of respect, otherwise don't go at all. I understand most won't agree but that's my opinion!

BrensBenz

Given your atheism - you probably don't believe that your (deceased) grandfather's spirit exists - so this might be a superfluous question but what would your grandfather have liked you to do? Since his children are catholic, I'm guessing he was catholic(?) but was he tolerant of other views?
Recently, my dad died and, although my rational head says not, I can't help feeling that he is still there, somewhere close. I would find it difficult to do something at a ceremony in his memory which I know he would be unhappy with. Maybe wimpish but I would bend for an hour a year rather than possibly disrespecting the deceased or definitely upsetting the living!