Savita dies due to refusal to terminate an unviable foetus.*Mod warning Post #1*

krudler

krudler wrote: »

Which tired people? the ones who don't want women to have control over their own bodies or the ones who think its nobody else's business what someone does with themselves?

People who are using this for political/boards point scoring. Like you are:rolleyes:

Oryx

The_Dazzler wrote: »

People who are using this for political/boards point scoring. Like you are:rolleyes:

I have no axe to grind and I don't give a hoot who is scoring what. But if a person has died, and it was a preventable death caused by poor medical law rather than medical malpractice, then damn right it needs to be publicised and discussed.

meeeeh

Oryx wrote: »

I have no axe to grind and I don't give a hoot who is scoring what. But if a person has died, and it was a preventable death caused by poor medical law rather than medical malpractice, then damn right it needs to be publicised and discussed.

The problem is you don't know that yet.

This will help the whole x judgment case but it will probably not have much bearing on the actual abortion debate. I'm firmly in pro choice camp, saying what I think of pro life activists would probably get me banned. I was also very much in favor of children's rights amendment however government actions regarding the booklet and the outrage around the death of this woman leave bad taste in my mouth. I can make my own mind and do not need to be helped with almost hysterical reaction to something that we actually know very little about.

krudler

Deleted User wrote: »

People who are using this for political/boards point scoring. Like you are:rolleyes:

Thats a fail of an agrument if I ever saw one, you'd rather the topic went undebated or discussed?

Dan_Solo

Sorry, but can we have a witch-hunt on this? Seriously.
If the consultant who made the decision to kill this woman was named publically, it might give a few more doctors pause for thought the next time they put jesus' rights before their patient's.

Ellis Dee

I feel really angry that the life of a young Kannadiga woman has been sacrificed on the altar of religious zealotry here in Ireland. :mad:

Just imagine the indignation that would flood the Irish media if an Irishwoman visiting Karnataka died because she had been denied appropriate medical treatment on the ground of some local religious or superstitious belief.:rolleyes:

We should be deeply ashamed as a nation and I will certainly feel uncomfortable the next time I visit India, especially Bengaluru in Karnataka, a country where there has traditionally been a lot of goodwill towards Ireland. Hopefully our political leaders will now be prompted to get up off their fat posteriors and finally try to bring us into the modern world where women's rights are concerned.

Now a lot of the goodwill that Indians feel towards us may be eroded. The reader comments at the end of this article are very revealing, even comparing us to the Taleban. They are repeated right across the spectrum of Indian newspapers:


http://www.deccanherald.com/content/291923/karnataka-woman-dies-being-refused.html

Da Shins Kelly

Petition signed. Email to local TD sent. Difficult to do much more than that given I'm in a different country. My deepest sympathies to Savita's family. No woman should have to die like this in a developed country. It's a disgrace and an embarrassment really. Hopefully some change can be brought about through it all.

MissFlitworth

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Sorry, but can we have a witch-hunt on this? Seriously.
If the consultant who made the decision to kill this woman was named publically, it might give a few more doctors pause for thought the next time they put jesus' rights before their patient's.

Doctors are in an impossible position here & that's why legislation is important. It's not 'Jesus' rights' they have to contend with, it's Irish law

Dan_Solo

MissFlitworth wrote: »

Doctors are in an impossible position here & that's why legislation is important. It's not 'Jesus' rights' they have to contend with, it's Irish law

That's fine. I still want to know her/his name so I can tell every woman I know not to go within an asses roar of this primitive. Anybody seriously think there'd have been a striking off if there'd been an abortion? Maybe our supposedly dedicated medical elite should just be prepared to take that hit in their patient's best interests and see what comes out in the wash.

FloatingVoter

YumCha wrote: »

If you want to take action on this, the National Women's Council of Ireland have a really handy form where you can email all of your TDs at once (only takes a couple of minutes): http://www.nwci.ie/takeaction

I'm just requoting that link to your local TD (things get lost in here). Takes two minutes to complete.

starlit

My heart goes out to Savita and her family.

I hope this case though sad will highlight what should be taken into consideration in the future.

I would not be surprised if a referendum might happen after this.

We are all human and each should be treated with the respect to life they deserve if it meant saving a person's life.

MissFlitworth

Dan_Solo wrote: »

That's fine. I still want to know her/his name so I can tell every woman I know not to go within an asses roar of this primitive. Anybody seriously think there'd have been a striking off if there'd been an abortion? Maybe our supposedly dedicated medical elite should just be prepared to take that hit in their patient's best interests and see what comes out in the wash.

It could have been a pro-life doctor here, it really could have been. Ben Goldacre posted some info on Twitter earlier about a pro life doctors conference that was held in Ireland in 2012 to see if any of the doctors involved in this case had been involved so it's not like they don't exist. But, in Ireland a doctor who performs an abortion on a patient whose life they believe to be at risk of their life is not just risking their livelihood, they are also risking a potential life sentence should that pregnancy later be proven not to be life threatening. They can also be personally sued. Potentially the doctor here was a monster but I would never want to be in their position, they're damned if they do & damned if they don't. I was at a vigil for Savita tonight, I'm heartbroken over what happened here, but I think clear legislation & not witch-hunting medical professionals is what's needed.

poeticseraphim

Just to say it is not politics ...it is MY body ..thank you

Rodin

Are thread titles such as this actually allowed?

The claim made is as yet unsubstantiated. There is no evidence yet that failure to remove the foetus actually caused the young woman to die as stated.

Some responsibility must be taken for this by a moderator IMHO.

starlit

I hope the government and the law will have the sense to pass some kind of legislation to prevent something like this to ever happen again here in Ireland or anywhere else. No woman or couple or family should have to go through this kind of heartache and hardship. You would think in this day and age the hospital could do all they could to help the mother. Religion shouldn't have not much to do with it but medical reasons should have been a priority whether or not their was a risk, the care during and after should have been a priority for the mother not just the baby!

Lyaiera

I went to the Cork vigil. It was really peaceful and calm. There was a weird moment for me when a motorbike that was parked by the Opera House started up. There was a big enough engine on it and it roared to a start, but the owner obviously didn't rev it up or anything, you could just hear the rumbling of it ticking over. It drowned out all the sounds of the cars and street noises, and the place seemed even more calm and tense. Then he took off as quiet as he could. Really strange moment that for me anyway, it was something about how the sound isolated the place.

It was so sad though, respectful, sombre and sad. I could feel myself well up at a few points (especially seeing kids there.) It's awful that it's taking this to make the government even comment on the issue.

starlit

I really do hope that what's happened might give the government/law the push to legislate.

I can't believe it has taken till now for the government to even address the issue.

mud

My friend and I organised a candle-lit vigil in remembrance of Savita in Limerick. Despite there only being 3 hours notice we had almost 60 people.

We observed a minutes silence and fair play to Supermacs they turned off their outside speakers as we held the silence.

barrackali

There should be something done to allow medical terminations, this can't be allowed to happen again.

That been said, I'm very against Abortion on demand.

This country needs a massive overhaul.

As I said in the thread in After Hours, sex education should be made mandatory in second and third level education, teaching the proper use of contraceptives. The reason I say this is that people say that abortions will be used as a form of contraceptive - teach them and this is less likely to happen.

Right now it's near impossible to know exactly what happened; initial reports suggested that the consultant had refused the abortion on the grounds that this is a Catholic country. If this is true, then it's horrible.

Lyaiera

Deleted User wrote: »

Right now it's near impossible to know exactly what happened; initial reports suggested that the consultant had refused the abortion on the grounds that this is a Catholic country. If this is true, then it's horrible.

I don't know what to think of that. He could have said it in an evil villain, fingertips steepled kind of way or he could have wanted to perform the procedure and have told her that his hands were tied because "this is a Catholic country (and full of cowardly politicians.)"

ABajaninCork

YumCha wrote: »

If you want to take action on this, the National Women's Council of Ireland have a really handy form where you can email all of your TDs at once (only takes a couple of minutes): http://www.nwci.ie/takeaction

This might be of particular interest, especially if you TD was one of the ones who voted against Clare Daly's bill in April (or worse, called it premature as well).

Thank you very much for the link, from which I've sent the mail to all the TD's in my area. Given the abysmal track record they have, I'm quite sure the mail will be ignored, but I live in hope!

Rodin

Deleted User wrote: »

This country needs a massive overhaul.

As I said in the thread in After Hours, sex education should be made mandatory in second and third level education, teaching the proper use of contraceptives. The reason I say this is that people say that abortions will be used as a form of contraceptive - teach them and this is less likely to happen.

Right now it's near impossible to know exactly what happened; initial reports suggested that the consultant had refused the abortion on the grounds that this is a Catholic country. If this is true, then it's horrible.

I've seen no claim that a consultant mentioned anything about a catholic country.

Stheno

Rodin wrote: »

I've seen no claim that a consultant mentioned anything about a catholic country.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/1115/1224326607277.html

Her husband, an engineer at Boston Scientific in Galway, had described how she asked several times over a three-day period that the pregnancy be terminated, given that she was in pain and was miscarrying. He said the request was refused by medical staff who said they could not do anything because there was still a foetal heartbeat. He said they were told that this was the law and that “this is a Catholic country”.

Gmol

A man's opinion here. I thought the mothers health had precedent if her life was at risk? I think the hospital screwed up. I My deepest sympathy to the rest of the family suffering 2 tragedies.

Sponge Bob

Having been through (with my wife) a number of both successful and unsuccesful pregnancies ( both) in that place I would strongly suspect the consultant was nowhere to be found for much of the time. That problem is not confined to the Maternity unit either.

That said there is no evidence (yet) that the 'medical staff' who refused to listen communicated anything to a consultant or that the consultant said to either her or her husband that there would be no termination.

Mrs OBumble

barrackali wrote: »

There should be something done to allow medical terminations, this can't be allowed to happen again.

That been said, I'm very against Abortion on demand.

+1

There's some interesting comment here on the Catholic moral teaching in this area: http://thethirstygargoyle.blogspot.ie/2012/11/medical-malpractice-and-treating.html

Personally I think that if this had happened to an Irish woman, rather than a foreigner, she would still be alive today. Of course I have no evidence of this. But it would be consistent with a few stories I've heard from foreign women who've been pregnant here.

Stheno

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Personally I think that if this had happened to an Irish woman, rather than a foreigner, she would still be alive today. Of course I have no evidence of this. But it would be consistent with a few stories I've heard from foreign women who've been pregnant here.

That's shocking if true.

Morag

Gmol wrote: »

A man's opinion here. I thought the mothers health had precedent if her life was at risk? I think the hospital screwed up. I My deepest sympathy to the rest of the family suffering 2 tragedies.

No her life and that of the unborn are considered to be equal.

Rodin

Stheno wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/1115/1224326607277.html

AGAIN, I have seen no reference that a consultant said anything about a catholic country. The word 'Consultant' isn't even mentioned in the irishtimes article