Savita dies due to refusal to terminate an unviable foetus.*Mod warning Post #1*

meeeeh

krudler wrote: »

Its a big grey area still isnt it?

It is but if her life was in danger it's very clear. I think in this case clearer judgement shoud be made after the report. But it is possible that some zealot refused to follow the law and act in the best interest of the patient. I had no problems getting DNC in this country before. As a separate thought it would be very interesting to find out if she came to hospital on Friday.

Dolbert

meeeeh wrote: »

As a separate thought it would be very interesting to find out if she came to hospital on Friday.

Was just wondering the same myself.

eviltwin

meeeeh wrote: »

It is but if her life was in danger it's very clear. I think in this case clearer judgement shoud be made after the report. But it is possible that some zealot refused to follow the law and act in the best interest of the patient. I had no problems getting DNC in this country before. As a separate thought it would be very interesting to find out if she came to hospital on Friday.

*confused* How would the day she arrived into hospital have had a bearing on things?

Lyaiera

Pixie-Fairy wrote: »

It shows how backwards this country is with regards to abortion. In the 21st Century, abortion should be legal in this country, especially if it is life threatening to the mother, like in this case. The Catholic Church are not the head of State, this is a republic, not a colony of the Vatican. Politics and Religion should be completely separate entities, not twinned together to obstruct modern rights such as abortion.

It's really annoying me how many people are blaming the Catholic church, especially people on Twitter in the UK. Sure, historically the Catholic church have some involvement, but Ireland has been through so much with them already, and laid the blame of so many tragedies firmly at the steps of that church that it's an easy excuse to blame the Catholic church at the moment. It's not the church at fault here, they might as well not exist for most of Ireland, it's the politicians who have continually failed to legislate for this.

But then again that's my general view on any church. Using religion as an excuse for something is a cop out. "God" isn't here, he never existed. You can't blame a fictional entity for your own failing, that's just trying to absolve yourself of blame.

meeeeh

eviltwin wrote: »

*confused* How would the day she arrived into hospital have had a bearing on things?

Because it's very hard to get dnc during weekend. I had it once when I was bleeding so badly I needed blood transfusion after it but in other cases I had to wait till Monday.

eviltwin

meeeeh wrote: »

Because it's very hard to get dnc during weekend. I had it once when I was bleeding so badly I needed blood transfusion after it but in other cases I had to wait till Monday.

Thanks for that, that would make sense.

Maggie 2

We need to take a step back and look at the actual facts, as opposed to supposition. I very much doubt that the words "Catholic Ireland" were used by a professional in that hospital. Having been in that situation myself, nothing could have been done while there was a heartbeat. No doubt the Husband is grief stricken at losing not only his beloved wife, but their baby.
May she Rest In Peace.

LeeHoffmann

It's really annoying me how many people are blaming the Catholic church, especially people on Twitter in the UK. Sure, historically the Catholic church have some involvement, but Ireland has been through so much with them already, and laid the blame of so many tragedies firmly at the steps of that church that it's an easy excuse to blame the Catholic church at the moment. It's not the church at fault here, they might as well not exist for most of Ireland, it's the politicians who have continually failed to legislate for this.

But then again that's my general view on any church. Using religion as an excuse for something is a cop out. "God" isn't here, he never existed. You can't blame a fictional entity for your own failing, that's just trying to absolve yourself of blame

The Catholic Church is being blamed, not God. The Catholic Church are staunchly anti-abortion. While I agree we can´t lay full blame at the feet of Catholicism, it would be ridiculous to ignore the influence it has on this issue in this country

meeeeh

Lyaiera wrote: »

But then again that's my general view on any church. Using religion as an excuse for something is a cop out. "God" isn't here, he never existed. You can't blame a fictional entity for your own failing, that's just trying to absolve yourself of blame.

I actually think that blaming the legislation in this case is a cop out. And it's possible that somebody was following their religious views instead of proper practices.

maggy_thatcher

Lyaiera wrote: »

But then again that's my general view on any church. Using religion as an excuse for something is a cop out. "God" isn't here, he never existed. You can't blame a fictional entity for your own failing, that's just trying to absolve yourself of blame.

There's a very real difference between "God" and "Church". While it's debatable as to whether or not 'god' is real, there is no debate that the "church" is real. And the pressure imposed by this organization is very real in this country. They use threats to push their will on people, which is why there has been such reluctance to legislate for the case that caused this poor woman her death.

Morag

Princess Peach wrote: »

I'd like more information on this. Totally understand they were following the law, but there seems to be no reports that they attempted to petition the courts for any kind of solution.

Have to add I know very little of legal procedures!

For the last year the government after being taken to task by the UN and the EU court of human rights the topic of new legislation has been forced on them. They set up an an expert group to review it and said that it would report back in Septmeber, funnily enough that report was supposedly only delivered in the last 48 hours to the minister for health.

There was a bill introduced to the Dáil on this back in April, to make the 20 years from the Xcase ruling and it was rejected.

So it is on the agenda finally but only after 3 women took the Irish government to court, these are know as the A, B, C cases.

Successive governments ignored this, and this one is having to be forced to deal with it.

BraziliaNZ

Wow, it's on the BBC radio right now, international news

Morag

It's being covered in America, India, Australia.

Lyaiera

maggy_thatcher wrote: »

There's a very real difference between "God" and "Church". While it's debatable as to whether or not 'god' is real, there is no debate that the "church" is real. And the pressure imposed by this organization is very real in this country. They use threats to push their will on people, which is why there has been such reluctance to legislate for the case that caused this poor woman her death.

But that's a cop out. It's saying "Ah the Catholic church have influence." Don't let them influence then. The Supreme Court has ruled on this years ago, and the Irish people have voted on this years ago. It's been decided already, it's the successive governments who have failed to legislate who are at fault. The Catholic church's position is in the minority here.

I don't like the Catholic church, I don't like any church, but people blaming them is giving them power. Make individuals, the actual people who decide this take the responsibility for this instead of letting them say, "It's not God's will" which is the essence of a church. If you let people blame the churches then you have to talk about religion, when you blame the individual people responsible you make them the issue, not some abstract hat wearing, messenger for a fictional entity..

krudler

BraziliaNZ wrote: »

Wow, it's on the BBC radio right now, international news

was on Sky news earlier too

cdaly_

Stench Blossoms wrote: »

It's not the hospitals fault. The doctors hands were tied because of backwards laws in this country.

meeeeh wrote: »

No they were not. Medical intervention is allowed in this case. I'm firmly pro choice but but blaming this on unclear regulations if hospital staff did not do what was necessary, would be wrong and could endanger more lives.

Their hands were essentially tied up until the point where it became clear that Savita's life was in danger. For all the time she was there, her health was at risk (from infection) but her life was possibly not clearly under threat. Unless somebody could say for certain that her life was in danger, they were powerless to intervene while a heartbeat could be detected. By the time the heartbeat stopped, they could legally go ahead with the D&C but that was too late.

herisson

Lyaiera wrote: »

It's really annoying me how many people are blaming the Catholic church, especially people on Twitter in the UK. Sure, historically the Catholic church have some involvement, but Ireland has been through so much with them already, and laid the blame of so many tragedies firmly at the steps of that church that it's an easy excuse to blame the Catholic church at the moment. It's not the church at fault here, they might as well not exist for most of Ireland, it's the politicians who have continually failed to legislate for this.

But then again that's my general view on any church. Using religion as an excuse for something is a cop out. "God" isn't here, he never existed. You can't blame a fictional entity for your own failing, that's just trying to absolve yourself of blame.

I respect your opinion, and yes to an extent it is unfair of me to blame the Catholic Church. But im not blaming "God", im blaming the Church, there is a difference.

But to be fair, you have to agree that the Church is partly to blame. They imposed their views on abortion regarding the legislation, and honestly, the Government shouldnt listen to them. There is a difference between "Divine Law" and Government legislation. The two are completely different and shouldnt be intwinned together. They should be separate.

At the end of the day, the Church should have no rule on what a woman does with her body, no matter what religion or non religion she may be. They shouldnt impose their views on the Government and society, especially seeing as this country is really not a Catholic one in present times.

I fully agree with your next post (sorry im not quoting it), that we shouldnt let the Church influence us and you are right there were rulings by the Supreme Courts, that she shouldnt have a say in the matter, and like you said, unfortunately subsequent Governments havent imposed it.

The Church shouldnt even put their noses in with politics, and the Government shouldnt even consider the Churches view on the matter as it has nothing to do with the Church or "God". It is to do with what is best for the interest of the people. This may have been a Catholic country but its 2012 not 1932, human rights should be more important than the view of Deity. Abortion should be legal in this day and age.

meeeeh

cdaly_ wrote: »

Their hands were essentially tied up until the point where it became clear that Savita's life was in danger. For all the time she was there, her health was at risk (from infection) but her life was possibly not clearly under threat. Unless somebody could say for certain that her life was in danger, they were powerless to intervene while a heartbeat could be detected. By the time the heartbeat stopped, they could legally go ahead with the D&C but that was too late.

That is the reason why I would like to wait for report before make definitive judgement but listening to some radio programes, it seems that general obstientrician opinion was that they could intervene in simmilar circumstances.

I have no problem using this as an ammunition in pro choice debate but I would not like to ignore personal responsibility.

fatmammycat

Anyone else going to the Dail at 6 to protest?

Madam_X

awec wrote: »

I think it would be a shame for this to turn into a men vs women argument, so I don't see the relevance of the 75% men in the Dáil comment (aside from the fact that it appears 10% of our Dáil is neither man nor woman).

Yes, it creates unnecessary hostility towards men, intentional or not.

miamee

fatmammycat wrote: »

Anyone else going to the Dail at 6 to protest?

Hopefully so, have to be on the other side of the city at 5.30 but will head over after that.

Stheno

Sharrow wrote: »

For the last year the government after being taken to task by the UN and the EU court of human rights the topic of new legislation has been forced on them. They set up an an expert group to review it and said that it would report back in Septmeber, funnily enough that report was supposedly only delivered in the last 48 hours to the minister for health.
.

Bizarre coincidence, the report was delivered to the Dept of Health yesterday.

hamsterboy

Stheno wrote: »

Bizarre coincidence, the report was delivered to the Dept of Health yesterday.

I highly doubt that was a coincidence, more like bolting the door after the horse is outta sight.
20 years and still no legislation.....what the hell are we paying that shower (and the showers before them) for?
R.I.P.
Her death was tragic and needless but let it not be in vain.

HB

YumCha

Live discussion in Dail: http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?fn=/documents/livewebcast/DVR-Flash-Dail.htm

planetX

meeeeh wrote: »

That is the reason why I would like to wait for report before make definitive judgement but listening to some radio programes, it seems that general obstientrician opinion was that they could intervene in simmilar circumstances.

I have no problem using this as an ammunition in pro choice debate but I would not like to ignore personal responsibility.

the cynic in me is wondering whether the this lack of clarity is going to be used to shield the doctor responsible from malpractice. There's no doubt in my mind that other obstetricians have treated patients in this situation properly.

Precious flower

How is it that Eamon Gilmore is quite open to the idea of a vote on same sex marriage 'as soon as possible' but will not tackle the issue of abortion? Both are equal sensitive issues. http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/1113/breaking20.html
Eventually the government will have to tackle the issue of abortion no matter how uncomfortable it may be for some people in society. Ireland is not as dominated by the Catholic church as it once was. 'Ireland is a Catholic country' it sounds like it was from the 1950's. That poor woman!

RossPaws

fatmammycat wrote: »

Anyone else going to the Dail at 6 to protest?

I'll be there, hopefully.

This entire issue is making me sick, the idea that if I should ever want or need to, I'm not allowed to have a choice in a matter concerning my own body.

Stheno

Precious flower wrote: »

How is it that Eamon Gilmore is quite open to the idea of a vote on same sex marriage 'as soon as possible' but will not tackle the issue of abortion? Both are equal sensitive issues. http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/1113/breaking20.html
Eventually the government will have to tackle the issue of abortion no matter how uncomfortable it may be for some people in society. Ireland is not as dominated by the Catholic church as it once was. 'Ireland is a Catholic country' it sounds like it was from the 1950's. That poor woman!

It's possibly because the door to same sex marriage has been opened with the introduction of civil partnership what almost two years ago?

The facts are not damning, are we sure we have the full facts? Sad that a lady had to die. Of course, this will allow the same old tired people to get back up on their soapbox.

krudler

Deleted User wrote: »

The facts are not damning, are we sure we have the full facts? Sad that a lady had to die. Of course, this will allow the same old tired people to get back up on their soapbox.

Which tired people? the ones who don't want women to have control over their own bodies or the ones who think its nobody else's business what someone does with themselves?