Savita dies due to refusal to terminate an unviable foetus.*Mod warning Post #1*

poeticseraphim

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/1114/1224326573964.html

The facts are damning.

The Coroner found she died of septicemia and ecoli after her cervix was open for 3 DAYS. She had a partial miscarriage and repeatedly asked for a termination as did her husband. She was told 'Ireland is a Catholic country we don't have abortion'. The child was unviable....it was not going to live no matter what....it had the faintest heart beat....at 17 weeks..

She died in agony.

Her husband said in India it could have been over in hours.

A girl by law will get a life sentence from using an abortion pill from the UK.

I put this here because this is the ladies lounge. In our Dáil it is only 15% women......think about that..the people who legislate for us are 75% men.

Pro-life is an OXYMORON...you cannot be anti-abortion and pro-life ..abortion saves lives .

Ladies today i put this in the Ladies Lounge. It belongs here.


[URL="hthttp://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=81740853#post81740853"]There is a Vigil in Galway for Savita and a protest at the Dail[/URL]

Mod warning:

This is an extremely emotive subject. Discussion will get heated.

Take this as first and final warning, that those resorting to any sort of personal abuse will be infracted/banned accordingly.

Remember: Attack the post, not the poster.

Victor

Is that simply a quote from another message board?

Mod

poeticseraphim

I have removed the quoted part of your post which you took from another post in another forum. I have also taken the CAPITAL LETTERS out of the title.

Morag

Just to let people know that in Eyres square in Galway this evening there is to be a candle lit vigil at 5:30pm
and there is also to be a protest at the Dáil in Dublin at 6pm.

NEW Updates:

https://www.facebook.com/events/452409004796258/

Vigils tomorrow The Liberty Tree Carlow and The Town Hall Kilkenny 4pm on Saturday.


https://www.facebook.com/events/485537601491091/

Vigil in on Friday.

Message in a Bottle ...To remember Savita
Today at 18:00
Wexford Quay in Wexford, Ireland

Dublin

https://www.facebook.com/events/306835169430369/

PROTEST at Savita’s death – Legislate for X case now
Public event · By Pro-Choice Campaign Ireland
Today 18:00
Legislate now for X!

Join us at the Dail, Kildare Street from 6pm on Wednesday 14th November.

Cork

https://www.facebook.com/events/218194501646236/

Candlelight vigil in memory of Savita Halappanavar
Public event Today 19:00
Cork Opera House, Emmet Place.

London
http://feministevents.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/protest-at-irish-embassy.html

In light of the death of Savita Halappanavar, there is a protest outside the Dail tonight by an Irish pro-choice group. In solidarity with the group, and to express our own shock and anger at the death of Savita Halappanavar, there will be a London-based pro-choice protest tonight. This will be at 6pm, at 17 Grosvenor Place, SW1X 7HR.



Thursday:

Belfast

https://www.facebook.com/events/293228100793876

17:30 until 18:30 City Hall, Donegeall Square, Belfast.
Saturday:

Limerick

https://www.facebook.com/events/172462832893678


Limerick: PROTEST at Savita Halappanavar's Death - Legislate for X Case Now
Public event · Saturday 15:00 until 16:00

O'Connell Street Limerick


Galway

https://www.facebook.com/events/111469712349997/

andlelit Vigil for Savita
Public event · By Galway Pro-Choice
Saturday 17:00
Eyre’s Square.

Dublin

https://www.facebook.com/events/243742145755096/

No more tragedies. Legislate NOW.
Public event · By Action On X
Saturday 16:00

From the Garden of Remembrance to the Dáil, where we will hold a candlelight vigil in conjunction with Galway Pro-Choice to grieve Savita’s unnecessary death

awec

This post has been deleted.

Cool Rider

May she rest in peace and Irish legislation should learn some lessons here. Can we upgrade to 21st century please?

krudler

Hopefully this is the final straw when it comes to legislation for X in this country, politicians are too afraid to bring this subject up, hand wringing and dismissing it instead.

YumCha

If you want to take action on this, the National Women's Council of Ireland have a really handy form where you can email all of your TDs at once (only takes a couple of minutes): http://www.nwci.ie/takeaction

This might be of particular interest, especially if you TD was one of the ones who voted against Clare Daly's bill in April (or worse, called it premature as well).

Links234

I feel ill reading about this...

my mum is currently in that very hospital.

Autonomous Cowherd

YumCha wrote: »

If you want to take action on this, the National Women's Council of Ireland have a really handy form where you can email all of your TDs at once (only takes a couple of minutes): http://www.nwci.ie/takeaction

This might be of particular interest, especially if you TD was one of the ones who voted against Clare Daly's bill in April (or worse, called it premature as well).

Thank you very much for that link. TD Letter sent!

Rest in Peace, Salita. What a tragic story.

poeticseraphim

awec wrote: »

I think it would be a shame for this to turn into a men vs women argument, so I don't see the relevance of the 75% men in the Dáil comment (aside from the fact that it appears 10% of our Dáil is neither man nor woman).

15% is female... 85% is male.surely you see that having an almost all male institution legislate on this is unwise. And i daresay it led to the delay in legislation.

They have been dragging their heels about legislation for the X case..there is a shame list going around on facebook with the names in the DÁIL holding it up.

I certainly will not be giving my vote ever to a politician who is not clear on this issue and intends to pursue it.

It could have easily have been a family member or a friend.

This hospital has a bad history and questionable reading material has come from there.

I personally think we need to evaluate the standards of practice of the medical profession in light of this.

krudler

Story has gone international, welcome to the Ireland of 2012, where people die because of political hand wringing and catholic laws.

poeticseraphim

Links234 wrote: »

I feel ill reading about this...

my mum is currently in that very hospital.

I hope she regains health ...I am sure she will.

My thoughts are with you.

Paulzx

poeticseraphim wrote: »

15% is female... 85% is male.surely you see that having an almost all male institution legislate on this is unwise. And i daresay it led to the delay in legislation.

.

With all due respect the lack of appetite to address the abortion issue is more to do with politicians fear of lobby groups, adverse publicity, vested interests and their own priority to get re elected than the actual sex of our TD's.


50% of the electorate are female and can vote for whoever they wish.

My own constituency has an even split between female and male elected TD's because that's what the electorate voted for.

I personally don't vote on the grounds of sex or party and make my decisions based on percieved ability. As a male my number 1 went to a female in the last election as i considered her the best candidate.

I think you are creating a side issue here

Ectoplasm

I heard a journalist talking about this on the radio this morning and I was geniunely shocked by what this woman had to go through. It was barbaric; this woman might as well not have been in a hospital in the 21st century.

As I understand it, from the moment she went into hospital the fetus wasn't viable, there was literally no hope of its survival. It wasn't a judgement call balancing the life of one against the other, it was simple - the woman could have been saved, the fetus never had a chance, despite the presence of a heartbeat. This poor man has lost his wife utterly needlessly.

The total failure of successive governments to legislate on this issue is shameful and absolutely infuriates me. It is a cowardly abdication of their responsibility to the citizens of this country, women AND men.

Tombo2001

awec wrote: »

I think it would be a shame for this to turn into a men vs women argument, so I don't see the relevance of the 75% men in the Dáil comment (aside from the fact that it appears 10% of our Dáil is neither man nor woman).

I really dont see this as a Man Vs Woman issue at all:

If the question is:

This woman had a baby that she knew would not survive, and wished to terminate the pregnancy rather than have a miscarriage, and the hospital/ doctors would not do that........then the question is: why would the hospital not do that, and why does Irish society not permit that?

I dont personally see that as a Man vs Woman issue, for the simple reason that Men in my view are just as likely to be Pro-Choice as Women.

So then what is the answer to the question?

LeeHoffmann

I agree with Paulzx and others: men aren´t the enemy here. There are plenty of pro-life women and pro-choice men. Politicians have been avoiding this issue because it´s so divisive and they don´t want to lose votes. I can only reiterate what others have said: what Savita and her husband endured is horrendous and scandalous. Ireland is in dire need of new legislation to deal with such situations. If I were still in Ireland, I´d be at the Dail protest.

miamee

As a matter of interest, had the doctors in question gone ahead and removed the foetus as requested, would they have faced any sort of back lash or disciplinary procedure?
I can't understand how any doctor could stand by and watch a person die in pain if there was something/anything they could to stop that from happening.

Tombo2001

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

I agree with Paulzx and others: men aren´t the enemy here. There are plenty of pro-life women and pro-choice men. Politicians have been avoiding this issue because it´s so divisive and they don´t want to lose votes. I can only reiterate what others have said: what Savita and her husband endured is horrendous and scandalous. Ireland is in dire need of new legislation to deal with such situations. If I were still in Ireland, I´d be at the Dail protest.

And as a corrollary to that, I dont recall any female politicians making this a major campaign issue in recent years. I may stand to be corrected there.

Much like the bullying case in Donegal, it sadly often takes an event like this to shake society initiate change.

Neyite

Links234 wrote: »

I feel ill reading about this...

my mum is currently in that very hospital.

Please try not to worry Links. It is a good hospital. In this instance, the doctors hands are tied because of vague legislation in the area - it was not negligence, the doctors simply could not legally do a thing for this poor woman.

I had Oreo there six months ago. I presented at the hospital with the very same symptoms as Savita, my waters had broken, however, she was only 17 weeks along, and I was full term. My baby was ready to arrive, hers never had a hope to survive that young.

I cant help compare the difference in our progression, purely because my baby could survive outside the womb, I was induced, she was not. In her case, the induction would be viewed as aborting, because its forcing contractions to allow a fetus with a beating heart to be delivered, and at 17 weeks would not survive.

I was given 6 hours maximum to deliver my baby after my waters broke due to the risk of infection to me, after that they told me I needed an emergency C-section. She was left for 3 days. If the legislation allowed, they would have given her a D&C within 6 hrs and the risk of infection would be greatly reduced.

I found the medical staff excellent in UHG. And I'd have no hesitation in having another baby there. While there are some staff who would hold catholic values, many more would not - there is a vast proportion of doctors there that are not irish. Who knows what their beliefs, if any they hold. If this had been legislated for, even if there was one surgeon based in Dublin who had no qualms about performing a D&C could be sent for, and could have been there in as little as 2 hours.

miamee

By the way there is also a vigil & protest being held on Thursday (tomorrow) at City Hall, Belfast, details on Facebook here.

Morag

miamee wrote: »

As a matter of interest, had the doctors in question gone ahead and removed the foetus as requested, would they have faced any sort of back lash or disciplinary procedure?
I can't understand how any doctor could stand by and watch a person die in pain if there was something/anything they could to stop that from happening.

They would face criminal prosecution up to 6 years in jail, black listing from medical insurance and revoking of medical license.

Morag

Tombo2001 wrote: »

And as a corrollary to that, I dont recall any female politicians making this a major campaign issue in recent years. I may stand to be corrected there.

Much like the bullying case in Donegal, it sadly often takes an event like this to shake society initiate change.

So you've missed Claire Daly bring legislation to the Dáil in April of this year the first abortion related bill ever?

Digs

As a woman who is 19 weeks pregnant this sends utter shivers down my spine. Something needs to change in this country, the life of the woman should be the priority end of story.

RIP and my sincerest condolences to her husband and family

Tombo2001

Sharrow wrote: »

So you've missed Claire Daly bring legislation to the Dáil in April of this year the first abortion related bill ever?

Yes I have. My bad.

YumCha

List of demonstrations and associated coverage via The Irish Times

That page also contains link to audio for the interview that the Irish Times journalist Kitty Holland conducted with Savita's husband. I couldn't make it past the first bit where he was talking about how excited she was and that they'd just arranged a gathering to tell their friends.... truly heartbreaking

Stench Blossoms

Links234 wrote: »

I feel ill reading about this...

my mum is currently in that very hospital.

It's not the hospitals fault. The doctors hands were tied because of backwards laws in this country.

This is a tragic, horrible thing to have happened and I hope something is done about it soon before something else happens. How many people have to die before the politicians listen?

meeeeh

Stench Blossoms wrote: »

It's not the hospitals fault. The doctors hands were tied because of backwards laws in this country.

No they were not. Medical intervention is allowed in this case. I'm firmly pro choice but but blaming this on unclear regulations if hospital staff did not do what was necessary, would be wrong and could endanger more lives.

krudler

meeeeh wrote: »

No they were not. Medical intervention is allowed in this case. I'm firmly pro choice but but blaming this on unclear regulations if hospital staff did not do what was necessary, would be wrong and could endanger more lives.

Its a big grey area still isnt it?

herisson

This is such a tragic thing to happen to this woman and her family.

It shows how backwards this country is with regards to abortion. In the 21st Century, abortion should be legal in this country, especially if it is life threatening to the mother, like in this case. The Catholic Church are not the head of State, this is a republic, not a colony of the Vatican. Politics and Religion should be completely separate entities, not twinned together to obstruct modern rights such as abortion.

I studied religion in college, and abortion was part of a particular module i studied. And to be honest it did disgust me. And the whole "God's will" aspect of it boggled me. That woman, did not need to die at 31, far too young. There was something doctors could have done but unfortunately their hands were tied by outdated legislation, which is indeed a sad and unfortunate truth in modern day Ireland.

I really think this could have been avoided if the legislation was in place. And in 2012, this legislation is well over due.

My condolences go out to her family. May she Rest in Peace.

Princess Peach

Sharrow wrote: »

They would face criminal prosecution up to 6 years in jail, black listing from medical insurance and revoking of medical license.

I'd like more information on this. Totally understand they were following the law, but there seems to be no reports that they attempted to petition the courts for any kind of solution.

Have to add I know very little of legal procedures!

meeeeh

krudler wrote: »

Its a big grey area still isnt it?

It is but if her life was in danger it's very clear. I think in this case clearer judgement shoud be made after the report. But it is possible that some zealot refused to follow the law and act in the best interest of the patient. I had no problems getting DNC in this country before. As a separate thought it would be very interesting to find out if she came to hospital on Friday.

Dolbert

meeeeh wrote: »

As a separate thought it would be very interesting to find out if she came to hospital on Friday.

Was just wondering the same myself.

eviltwin

meeeeh wrote: »

It is but if her life was in danger it's very clear. I think in this case clearer judgement shoud be made after the report. But it is possible that some zealot refused to follow the law and act in the best interest of the patient. I had no problems getting DNC in this country before. As a separate thought it would be very interesting to find out if she came to hospital on Friday.

*confused* How would the day she arrived into hospital have had a bearing on things?

Lyaiera

Pixie-Fairy wrote: »

It shows how backwards this country is with regards to abortion. In the 21st Century, abortion should be legal in this country, especially if it is life threatening to the mother, like in this case. The Catholic Church are not the head of State, this is a republic, not a colony of the Vatican. Politics and Religion should be completely separate entities, not twinned together to obstruct modern rights such as abortion.

It's really annoying me how many people are blaming the Catholic church, especially people on Twitter in the UK. Sure, historically the Catholic church have some involvement, but Ireland has been through so much with them already, and laid the blame of so many tragedies firmly at the steps of that church that it's an easy excuse to blame the Catholic church at the moment. It's not the church at fault here, they might as well not exist for most of Ireland, it's the politicians who have continually failed to legislate for this.

But then again that's my general view on any church. Using religion as an excuse for something is a cop out. "God" isn't here, he never existed. You can't blame a fictional entity for your own failing, that's just trying to absolve yourself of blame.

meeeeh

eviltwin wrote: »

*confused* How would the day she arrived into hospital have had a bearing on things?

Because it's very hard to get dnc during weekend. I had it once when I was bleeding so badly I needed blood transfusion after it but in other cases I had to wait till Monday.

eviltwin

meeeeh wrote: »

Because it's very hard to get dnc during weekend. I had it once when I was bleeding so badly I needed blood transfusion after it but in other cases I had to wait till Monday.

Thanks for that, that would make sense.

Maggie 2

We need to take a step back and look at the actual facts, as opposed to supposition. I very much doubt that the words "Catholic Ireland" were used by a professional in that hospital. Having been in that situation myself, nothing could have been done while there was a heartbeat. No doubt the Husband is grief stricken at losing not only his beloved wife, but their baby.
May she Rest In Peace.

LeeHoffmann

It's really annoying me how many people are blaming the Catholic church, especially people on Twitter in the UK. Sure, historically the Catholic church have some involvement, but Ireland has been through so much with them already, and laid the blame of so many tragedies firmly at the steps of that church that it's an easy excuse to blame the Catholic church at the moment. It's not the church at fault here, they might as well not exist for most of Ireland, it's the politicians who have continually failed to legislate for this.

But then again that's my general view on any church. Using religion as an excuse for something is a cop out. "God" isn't here, he never existed. You can't blame a fictional entity for your own failing, that's just trying to absolve yourself of blame

The Catholic Church is being blamed, not God. The Catholic Church are staunchly anti-abortion. While I agree we can´t lay full blame at the feet of Catholicism, it would be ridiculous to ignore the influence it has on this issue in this country

meeeeh

Lyaiera wrote: »

But then again that's my general view on any church. Using religion as an excuse for something is a cop out. "God" isn't here, he never existed. You can't blame a fictional entity for your own failing, that's just trying to absolve yourself of blame.

I actually think that blaming the legislation in this case is a cop out. And it's possible that somebody was following their religious views instead of proper practices.

maggy_thatcher

Lyaiera wrote: »

But then again that's my general view on any church. Using religion as an excuse for something is a cop out. "God" isn't here, he never existed. You can't blame a fictional entity for your own failing, that's just trying to absolve yourself of blame.

There's a very real difference between "God" and "Church". While it's debatable as to whether or not 'god' is real, there is no debate that the "church" is real. And the pressure imposed by this organization is very real in this country. They use threats to push their will on people, which is why there has been such reluctance to legislate for the case that caused this poor woman her death.

Morag

Princess Peach wrote: »

I'd like more information on this. Totally understand they were following the law, but there seems to be no reports that they attempted to petition the courts for any kind of solution.

Have to add I know very little of legal procedures!

For the last year the government after being taken to task by the UN and the EU court of human rights the topic of new legislation has been forced on them. They set up an an expert group to review it and said that it would report back in Septmeber, funnily enough that report was supposedly only delivered in the last 48 hours to the minister for health.

There was a bill introduced to the Dáil on this back in April, to make the 20 years from the Xcase ruling and it was rejected.

So it is on the agenda finally but only after 3 women took the Irish government to court, these are know as the A, B, C cases.

Successive governments ignored this, and this one is having to be forced to deal with it.

BraziliaNZ

Wow, it's on the BBC radio right now, international news

Morag

It's being covered in America, India, Australia.

Lyaiera

maggy_thatcher wrote: »

There's a very real difference between "God" and "Church". While it's debatable as to whether or not 'god' is real, there is no debate that the "church" is real. And the pressure imposed by this organization is very real in this country. They use threats to push their will on people, which is why there has been such reluctance to legislate for the case that caused this poor woman her death.

But that's a cop out. It's saying "Ah the Catholic church have influence." Don't let them influence then. The Supreme Court has ruled on this years ago, and the Irish people have voted on this years ago. It's been decided already, it's the successive governments who have failed to legislate who are at fault. The Catholic church's position is in the minority here.

I don't like the Catholic church, I don't like any church, but people blaming them is giving them power. Make individuals, the actual people who decide this take the responsibility for this instead of letting them say, "It's not God's will" which is the essence of a church. If you let people blame the churches then you have to talk about religion, when you blame the individual people responsible you make them the issue, not some abstract hat wearing, messenger for a fictional entity..

krudler

BraziliaNZ wrote: »

Wow, it's on the BBC radio right now, international news

was on Sky news earlier too

cdaly_

Stench Blossoms wrote: »

It's not the hospitals fault. The doctors hands were tied because of backwards laws in this country.

meeeeh wrote: »

No they were not. Medical intervention is allowed in this case. I'm firmly pro choice but but blaming this on unclear regulations if hospital staff did not do what was necessary, would be wrong and could endanger more lives.

Their hands were essentially tied up until the point where it became clear that Savita's life was in danger. For all the time she was there, her health was at risk (from infection) but her life was possibly not clearly under threat. Unless somebody could say for certain that her life was in danger, they were powerless to intervene while a heartbeat could be detected. By the time the heartbeat stopped, they could legally go ahead with the D&C but that was too late.

herisson

Lyaiera wrote: »

It's really annoying me how many people are blaming the Catholic church, especially people on Twitter in the UK. Sure, historically the Catholic church have some involvement, but Ireland has been through so much with them already, and laid the blame of so many tragedies firmly at the steps of that church that it's an easy excuse to blame the Catholic church at the moment. It's not the church at fault here, they might as well not exist for most of Ireland, it's the politicians who have continually failed to legislate for this.

But then again that's my general view on any church. Using religion as an excuse for something is a cop out. "God" isn't here, he never existed. You can't blame a fictional entity for your own failing, that's just trying to absolve yourself of blame.

I respect your opinion, and yes to an extent it is unfair of me to blame the Catholic Church. But im not blaming "God", im blaming the Church, there is a difference.

But to be fair, you have to agree that the Church is partly to blame. They imposed their views on abortion regarding the legislation, and honestly, the Government shouldnt listen to them. There is a difference between "Divine Law" and Government legislation. The two are completely different and shouldnt be intwinned together. They should be separate.

At the end of the day, the Church should have no rule on what a woman does with her body, no matter what religion or non religion she may be. They shouldnt impose their views on the Government and society, especially seeing as this country is really not a Catholic one in present times.

I fully agree with your next post (sorry im not quoting it), that we shouldnt let the Church influence us and you are right there were rulings by the Supreme Courts, that she shouldnt have a say in the matter, and like you said, unfortunately subsequent Governments havent imposed it.

The Church shouldnt even put their noses in with politics, and the Government shouldnt even consider the Churches view on the matter as it has nothing to do with the Church or "God". It is to do with what is best for the interest of the people. This may have been a Catholic country but its 2012 not 1932, human rights should be more important than the view of Deity. Abortion should be legal in this day and age.

meeeeh

cdaly_ wrote: »

Their hands were essentially tied up until the point where it became clear that Savita's life was in danger. For all the time she was there, her health was at risk (from infection) but her life was possibly not clearly under threat. Unless somebody could say for certain that her life was in danger, they were powerless to intervene while a heartbeat could be detected. By the time the heartbeat stopped, they could legally go ahead with the D&C but that was too late.

That is the reason why I would like to wait for report before make definitive judgement but listening to some radio programes, it seems that general obstientrician opinion was that they could intervene in simmilar circumstances.

I have no problem using this as an ammunition in pro choice debate but I would not like to ignore personal responsibility.

fatmammycat

Anyone else going to the Dail at 6 to protest?

Madam_X

awec wrote: »

I think it would be a shame for this to turn into a men vs women argument, so I don't see the relevance of the 75% men in the Dáil comment (aside from the fact that it appears 10% of our Dáil is neither man nor woman).

Yes, it creates unnecessary hostility towards men, intentional or not.