Savita dies due to refusal to terminate an unviable foetus.*Mod warning Post #1*

username123

drkpower wrote: »

Or perhaps Curly might answer this question:

I doubt it. One thing that becomes more apparent with this thread is that the pro-life stance posters are unable or unwilling to follow through and back up their convictions with any kind of reasoned or logical debate.

Its 'NO abortion' then <fingers in ears> 'lalalalalalalalalalalalalalala' for the most part.

Possibly because the uncomfortable consequences of such a position make it indefensible. Or because the posters in question have not thought their position through.

Curly Judge

Sharrow wrote: »

So you are pro abortion, you are an advocate for abortion legislation under the terms you have outlined above?

Yes!

Jack B. Badd

drkpower wrote: »

Or perhaps Curly might answer this question: Should a person be prevented from travelling to another jurisdiction if they are intending to murder an irish citizen in that other jurisdiction? And if so, why the distinction vis-a-vis travelling to another jurisdiction to murder an unborn child?

I'm curious, can you identify a jurisdiction where murder, as distinct from abortion, is legal?

Curly Judge

drkpower wrote: »

Or perhaps Curly might answer this question: Should a person be prevented from travelling to another jurisdiction if they are intending to murder an irish citizen in that other jurisdiction? And if so, why the distinction vis-a-vis travelling to another jurisdiction to murder an unborn child?

If there was no ban on travel to that other jurisdiction and if that other jurisdiction did not have a ban on murdering Irish citizens, how would you suggest I prevent it?

Twee.

What makes a citizen? Wikipedia tells me a citizen has "the right to work and live in a country and to participate in political life". I don't believe a foetus does any of those things.

Curly Judge

Twee. wrote: »

What makes a citizen? Wikipedia tells me a citizen has "the right to work and live in a country and to participate in political life". I don't believe a foetus does any of those things.

Oh well, if Wiki says it that's the end of that then?
We might as well all go home!

Twee.

I was using a popularly cited website as a reference to back up my point.

eviltwin

Curly Judge wrote: »

Oh well, if Wiki says it that's the end of that then?
We might as well all go home!

If Wiki doesn't cut it for you how about the Oxford dictionary?

Definition of citizen
noun
a legally recognized subject or national of a state or commonwealth, either native or naturalized:
a British citizen
an inhabitant of a particular town or city:
the good citizens of Edinburgh

Not sure you could apply either of those to a foetus

Fysh

Curly Judge wrote: »

Oh well, if Wiki says it that's the end of that then?
We might as well all go home!

Well, there is scope for the question to be quite interesting. At what point does an individual become a citizen in Irish law? The Constitution grants a right to life at the moment of conception, but does that mean that at the moment of conception one is a citizen, despite not being a registered legal entity? Or does it happen at birth? Or does it happen when a birth certificate is issued?

username123

Fysh wrote: »

Well, there is scope for the question to be quite interesting. At what point does an individual become a citizen in Irish law? The Constitution grants a right to life at the moment of conception, but does that mean that at the moment of conception one is a citizen, despite not being a registered legal entity? Or does it happen at birth? Or does it happen when a birth certificate is issued?

Also to be considered is that if someone murders a woman who is 3 months pregnant, currently that murderer is tried for one murder, not two.

Curly Judge

Twee. wrote: »

I was using a popularly cited website as a reference to back up my point.

Could I suggest that you look up sophistry in wiki the next time you get a minute.

Curly Judge

Fysh wrote: »

Well, there is scope for the question to be quite interesting. At what point does an individual become a citizen in Irish law? The Constitution grants a right to life at the moment of conception, but does that mean that at the moment of conception one is a citizen, despite not being a registered legal entity? Or does it happen at birth? Or does it happen when a birth certificate is issued?

This is the oldest argumentative trick in the book and I have to say I'm having none of it!
You use a word, in this case citizen and ring fence it with certain rights and privileges to the exclusion of all other words.
Then, with one bound, you decree that because the person or idea doesn't fall within that selected catchment area it is ipso facto excluded.
Try pulling the other one folks!

drkpower

Jack B. Badd wrote: »

I'm curious, can you identify a jurisdiction where murder, as distinct from abortion, is legal?

It was a question about his moral stance.

drkpower

Curly Judge wrote: »

If there was no ban on travel to that other jurisdiction and if that other jurisdiction did not have a ban on murdering Irish citizens, how would you suggest I prevent it?

As above, I am asking you about the moral distinction you make between somemone being permitted to travel to murder a foetus as opposed to someone being allowed to murder a citizen.

If you prefer me to rephrase the question: were Switzerland to legalise murder in the morning, do you believe that a person should be prevented from travelling there to murder an Irish citizen residing in Switzerland.

Fysh

Curly Judge wrote: »

This is the oldest argumentative trick in the book and I have to say I'm having none of it!
You use a word, in this case citizen and ring fence it with certain rights and privileges to the exclusion of all other words.
Then, with one bound, you decree that because the person or idea doesn't fall within that selected catchment area it is ipso facto excluded.
Try pulling the other one folks!

I wasn't trying to do any such thing - I was asking a genuine question as to whether the specific provision of the right to life to a foetus at the point of conception also confers full citizenship rights at that moment, and if not when those rights are conferred.

I'm not aware of anything that addresses the issue, so if pressed I would guess that the legislation assumes that a birth certificate is issued immediately upon birth and that citizenship rights begin at that moment. This is why I think it's an interesting question; it would be interesting to see how legal precedent in related cases treats the matter and whether there is any internal consistency with the constitution in that regard.

Given that we're talking about citizenship as a set of rights granted by a government through legislation, I don't think that cleverness with words helps us one way or the other. Either there's a defined answer somewhere or it's yet another murky grey area where some poor bugger in the Big Seat is going to have to rule on the matter and establish precedent sometime in the future.

Curly Judge

drkpower wrote: »

As above, I am asking you about the moral distinction you make between somemone being permitted to travel to murder a foetus as opposed to someone being allowed to murder a citizen.

If you prefer me to rephrase the question: were Switzerland to legalise murder in the morning, do you believe that a person should be prevented from travelling there to murder an Irish citizen residing in Switzerland.

If my aunt grew balls and became my uncle would she be entitled to an IRA pension?

drkpower

Curly Judge wrote: »

If my aunt grew balls and became my uncle would she be entitled to an IRA pension?

if you don't want to answer the question publicly, that's fine. But have a think about it in private, it might help you to better understand your own position.

Curly Judge

drkpower wrote: »

if you don't want to answer the question publicly, that's fine. But have a think about it in private, it might help you to better understand your own position.

I refuse to answer such a ridiculous, contrived conundrum either in public or private.
"If Switzerland legalized the murder of Irishmen"??? :rolleyes:
Pose me a real life moral dilemma and I'll have a shot at answering it.
For instance, would I allow a wife to accompany her husband to Switzerland to assist in his mercy killing.
The answer to that one is: Most definitely yes!

Berlin at night

drkpower wrote: »

As above, I am asking you about the moral distinction you make between somemone being permitted to travel to murder a foetus as opposed to someone being allowed to murder a citizen.

If you prefer me to rephrase the question: were Switzerland to legalise murder in the morning, do you believe that a person should be prevented from travelling there to murder an Irish citizen residing in Switzerland.

How can you murder a foetus, its not a human being. Abortion should be readilly available on any grounds whatsoever. Incest, rape, endangering the life of the mother, or simply don't want it. If the mother doesn't want, then she should have the right a local abortion clinic and have it sorted, no biggie.

Sooner or later its coming to this country, and the sooner the better, save our poor women having to travel all the way to the UK and back again.

I'm pro abortion, as most people in this coounty are; I read a statistic that over 80% are pro abortion, so the sooner we get a referendum and win it, the better.

drkpower

Curly Judge wrote: »

I refuse to answer such a ridiculous, contrived conundrum either in public or private.
"If Switzerland legalized the murder of Irishmen"??? :rolleyes:
Pose me a real life moral dilemma and I'll have a shot at answering it.
For instance, would I allow a wife to accompany her husband to Switzerland to assist in his mercy killing.
The answer to that one is: Most definitely yes!

A very common, and valuable, way of challenging your own views is to consider various analagous hypothetical scenarios and consider how you respond. It is also quiet common that the subject matter of these hypothetical situations will never actually occur in reality. That doesnt actually change their effectiveness one bit.

You should read up on them (try the 'trolley problem'; or if you want one abortion-specific, try the 'famous violinist' - there are many many others). It might help you to explore your own views. I understand that you might want to do that in private first. I think you will find it helpful.

Right folks, as you will know from reading the charter, The Ladies Lounge is primarily a forum for women to discuss issues from their perspective. This particular discussion was started to talk about the circumstances surrounding the death of Savita Halappanavar.

As it appears that this thread no longer falls into either of above categories, I don't see any reason to leave it open for now.

If you wish to continue discussing this particular topic, there is an ongoing thread in After Hours.