DCM 2012 Graduates - the next step

tang1

For those who like to plan ahead, the registration for the Athlone Half Marathon opens this Friday. Its being run on the 14th of September 2013 and from chatting with one of the organisers it will sell out fairly quick. There putting a limit on entries this year and no on the day entries will be taken. Good course for a PB attempt by all accounts.

menoscemo

iancairns wrote: »

So your mate who can doe a sub 30min 5 miler also does 10min mile 7 mile runs also?

Why?

Yes, this is what is called a recovery run.
If you have a hard session, race or long run the day before the worst thing you can do is go out the next day and run hard again. An easy/recovery run will help clear lactic acid in the legs from the effort of the day before, loosen up the muscles and effectively freshen up the athelte (mentally as well as physically).

From a training point of view there is no difference from such an athlete doing the easy runs at 8 min/mile or 10 min/mile. Both will be 'slow' and both will give the body the same aerobic boost and both will condition the legs to doing mileage. But the 10 min/mile will give the legs a better boost from a recovery point of view.

It is well known that top kenyan athletes will often do their easy runs at 9 min/mile and slower.

Walkedit

Deedee2012 wrote: »

I don't know if any of you have SKY, I recorded a few programmes off the fitness channel, to get some ideas for strength work, found a brilliant one, yogalosophy with Mandy Ingbur, just did the half hour, it was squats, calf raises, lunges, plank, side plank, push ups, sit ups, bridge, and stretches linked by yoga stretching, was really enjoyable, would def recommend. For any of the men who find the recommendation dubious she was gorgeous, tanned and wearing tiny shorts!

Thanks for all the advice re dodgy knees, sorry to hear there are so many in the same boat. Think meno's advice re backing off the mileage and doing easy running for a while makes a lot of sense.

Dee clearly Mandy is a fitness Guru from your description, it was confirmed on another thread I saw that the shorter the shorts the faster the runner!
must take a look

Seriously i so agree with idea of you minding yourself, we know you so aint no quitter just Smart

I feel for all with waterford plans under review, ive been so respecting the committement.

Did 4m last night and could really feel last weeks runs, i was real tired, running 12mpm came so easy, not sure i will do justice to session tonight, gotta balance easy/hard better next week, esp LSR did 8@ 10mpm on Sun after parkrun 5k at 9mpm on Sat and it was too much for me

OK class repeat after me

do EASY EASY
do HARD HARD

upthe19th

Crikey, so many injuries:eek:. I hope you all recover soon.

That list for waterford is starting to shrink.....

Definitely going to take it especially easy for a few runs.

docjewel

iancairns wrote: »

So your mate who can doe a sub 30min 5 miler also does 10min mile 7 mile runs also?

Why?

menoscemo wrote: »

Yes, this is what is called a recovery run.
If you have a hard session, race or long run the day before the worst thing you can do is go out the next day and run hard again. An easy/recovery run will help clear lactic acid in the legs from the effort of the day before, loosen up the muscles and effectively freshen up the athelte (mentally as well as physically).

From a training point of view there is no difference from such an athlete doing the easy runs at 8 min/mile or 10 min/mile. Both will be 'slow' and both will give the body the same aerobic boost and both will condition the legs to doing mileage. But the 10 min/mile will give the legs a better boost from a recovery point of view.

It is well known that top kenyan athletes will often do their easy runs at 9 min/mile and slower.

Meno has hit the nail on the head there.
If look back though any of the marathon novice threads over the years on any thread asking for advice,there will always be advice from the more elite/experienced runners on this thread advocating that slow running is essential for improvement.
Sometimes we have to experience the mistakes ourselves to see what what the mentors are actually telling us is correct.

guinang

menoscemo wrote: »

It is well known that top kenyan athletes will often do their easy runs at 9 min/mile and slower.

I never fail to be fascinated by this forum. I was always under the impression (perhaps from previous posts) that your recovery run should be 1.5/2 mins slower than your goal mp.

I really must re-evaluate my recovery run pace.

menoscemo

guinang wrote: »

I never fail to be fascinated by this forum. I was always under the impression (perhaps from previous posts) that your recovery run should be 1.5/2 mins slower than your goal mp.

I really must re-evaluate my recovery run pace.

I think the advice is that it should be at least that slow but no harm going slower again if the body says so or if there is company at the slower pace.
Pace is just not a factor in recovery runs and to even think about trying to keep up a certain pace is to defeat the purpose of the run.

blockic

tang1 wrote: »

For those who like to plan ahead, the registration for the Athlone Half Marathon opens this Friday. Its being run on the 14th of September 2013 and from chatting with one of the organisers it will sell out fairly quick. There putting a limit on entries this year and no on the day entries will be taken. Good course for a PB attempt by all accounts.

Ran it this year and it is a great race and excellently organised. You won't get a flatter course also i can assure you, it's a pancake!

Highly recommend doing it.

Gavlor

iancairns wrote: »

So your mate who can doe a sub 30min 5 miler also does 10min mile 7 mile runs also?

Why?

This is exactly what I do. Sub 30min 5 miler followed by 9 min mile run. Great for recovery and to loosen out the legs

miguelk

menoscemo wrote: »

I think the advice is that it should be at least that slow but no harm going slower again if the body says so or if there is company at the slower pace.
Pace is just not a factor in recovery runs and to even think about trying to keep up a certain pace is to defeat the purpose of the run.

Hi Meno,

2 questions when you have time...

Firstly - Is a recovery run supposed to be the same pace/effort as an easy run? Is "recovery" just another word for an easy run after a hard session? (EDIT - I didn't read your post through properly, but in terms of effor woudl HR max - 50 apply here also?)

I've decided to pull back from the Spring marathon (Rotterdam) also, I'm still going to do a 5k race to cash in on the marathon training and to give me an idea of training paces and max HR - but I'll just slog out the winter in miles and see where I am in the new year.

Second question - regarding the speed sesion this week. I did the intervals at my goal 5k pace. Should I be comfortably able to do these intervals? Like I was pretty tired after the 4th and 5th one, and they are only a half mile! Still managed to hit them very consistantly with the last being 2 secs faster than the first. Are there any indications to help figure out of you are over stretching your target? Maybe I'm just not used to these sessions.

Thanks for the help.

menoscemo

miguelk wrote: »

Hi Meno,

2 questions when you have time...

Firstly - Is a recovery run supposed to be the same pace/effort as an easy run? Is "recovery" just another word for an easy run after a hard session?

A recovery run should be done at the lower end of easy pace for sure. As an example I would do easy runs at 8:30/mile and a recovery run could go as low as 9:30/mile but it's not something I worry about. 8:30mile would still be inside what P&D describes as the HR zone for recovery, but there is an overlap between 'easy' and 'recovery' in that certain paces are OK for both. For recovery runs just put away the watch and let the legs dicate the pace

Second question - regarding the speed sesion this week. I did the intervals at my goal 5k pace. Should I be comfortably able to do these intervals? Like I was pretty tired after the 4th and 5th one, and they are only a half mile! Still managed to hit them very consistantly with the last being 2 secs faster than the first. Are there any indications to help figure out of you are over stretching your target? Maybe I'm just not used to these sessions.

I did 8 x 600m at 5k pace last night and the last two absolutely killed me. So don't worry about it!! 5k pace is supposed to be tough, you should be up at 95%+ of your max HR even if the interval is only half a mile. You will be able to hold that effort for longer in a race environment.

Answers in red!! Sounds like your interavls last night were spot on.

RayCun

One thing I'd add would be that recovery runs are usually fairly short - 30 minutes, maybe 40 minutes - so the pace is slow and the distance is short, they're not taxing at all.

ecoli

RayCun wrote: »

One thing I'd add would be that recovery runs are usually fairly short - 30 minutes, maybe 40 minutes - so the pace is slow and the distance is short, they're not taxing at all.

+1 on this the purpose of a recovery run is just that, to recover as such I would always cap my recovery runs at 45 min max. These will aid not only in recoverying from sessions but long term injury prevention as the increase in blood flow can help break down muscle fiber adhesions (tightness or "knots") to a extent. It also aids in the removal of waste products within the muscles so these are highly important and great habit to get into on a weekly basis to supplement your harder training (as opposed to reverting to these days instead of easy runs)

menoscemo

ecoli wrote: »

+1 on this the purpose of a recovery run is just that, to recover as such I would always cap my recovery runs at 45 min max. These will aid not only in recoverying from sessions but long term injury prevention as the increase in blood flow can help break down muscle fiber adhesions (tightness or "knots") to a extent. It also aids in the removal of waste products within the muscles so these are highly important and great habit to get into on a weekly basis to supplement your harder training (as opposed to reverting to these days instead of easy runs)

Exactly. This is why we currently have a 2 mile 'recovery' run each thursday after the wednesday session. The recovery run up to now has only been 2m, we might extend it to 4m at a maximum.

So yes while the easy runs might be done at a similar pace to the Recovery runs, the fact that the recovery runs are shorter is also an important factor.

dazza21ie

RayCun wrote: »

One thing I'd add would be that recovery runs are usually fairly short - 30 minutes, maybe 40 minutes - so the pace is slow and the distance is short, they're not taxing at all.

ecoli wrote: »

+1 on this the purpose of a recovery run is just that, to recover as such I would always cap my recovery runs at 45 min max. These will aid not only in recoverying from sessions but long term injury prevention as the increase in blood flow can help break down muscle fiber adhesions (tightness or "knots") to a extent. It also aids in the removal of waste products within the muscles so these are highly important and great habit to get into on a weekly basis to supplement your harder training (as opposed to reverting to these days instead of easy runs)

menoscemo wrote: »

Exactly. This is why we currently have a 2 mile 'recovery' run each thursday after the wednesday session. The recovery run up to now has only been 2m, we might extend it to 4m at a maximum.

So yes while the easy runs might be done at a similar pace to the Recovery runs, the fact that the recovery runs are shorter is also an important factor.

Perfect sense from the 3 wise men:D. Looking forward to a nice recovery run tomorrow after this morning's intervals!

Dilbert75

I've pretty much decided that I'm going to listen to my body and treat the Waterford half as a recovery run and do it for pleasure, rather than being tempted to go for a pb. Current pb is 1.43, was going to go for sub-1.40 but I think I'll leave that attempt for the Wexford half in April. So somewhere in the 1.50 - 2.00 range is going to be my target now, all going well. Then I'll try to just keep ticking over until the New Year.

ncmc

Dilbert75 wrote: »

I've pretty much decided that I'm going to listen to my body and treat the Waterford half as a recovery run and do it for pleasure, rather than being tempted to go for a pb. Current pb is 1.43, was going to go for sub-1.40 but I think I'll leave that attempt for the Wexford half in April. So somewhere in the 1.50 - 2.00 range is going to be my target now, all going well. Then I'll try to just keep ticking over until the New Year.

That's the way my thought process is going at the moment too Dilbert.... Fancy being lumbered with a moaning running buddy again

Dilbert75

ncmc wrote: »

That's the way my thought process is going at the moment too Dilbert.... Fancy being lumbered with a moaning running buddy again

I'd be happy to have your company again ncmc - and anyone else in the Creaky Joints Club who wants to totter around!

Gavlor

Dilbert75 wrote: »

I'd be happy to have your company again ncmc - and anyone else in the Creaky Joints Club who wants to totter around!

Ah now where is the fun in that?! What happened to the motto of the novices thread "HTFU"?

Sure you have a month of slow steady recovery runs to help hit the ground running in 2013

Dilbert75

Did you not hear? STFD is the new HTFU...

Gavlor

Dilbert75 wrote: »

Did you not hear? STFD is the new HTFU...

Meno has you brainwashed!! That only applies to training not racing

menoscemo

Dilbert75 wrote: »

Did you not hear? STFD is the new HTFU...

Not in a race it's not

Dilbert75

menoscemo wrote: »

Not in a race it's not

Ah yes but to finish first, first you have to finish!

upthe19th

Dilbert75 wrote: »

I've pretty much decided that I'm going to listen to my body and treat the Waterford half as a recovery run and do it for pleasure, rather than being tempted to go for a pb. Current pb is 1.43, was going to go for sub-1.40 but I think I'll leave that attempt for the Wexford half in April. So somewhere in the 1.50 - 2.00 range is going to be my target now, all going well. Then I'll try to just keep ticking over until the New Year.

Sounds like a good plan dilbert. You will come away from waterford positive. Otherwise you are setting yourself up for a tough task and not getting the result you want.

Reckon wexford would set you up nicely for sub 1:40. Hopefully I'll be on your shoulder:).

I still fancy a PB for waterford, but only a slight one, a minute or so faster.
Feel good and no problems as yet.. Christ nearly jinxed it.

Gavlor

Dilbert75 wrote: »

Ah yes but to finish first, first you have to finish!

Meh!

We need to get a sports psychologist involved in this thread!

What's the point in trotting around For 13.1 miles on a cold Waterford morning when you could be racing

menoscemo

Gavlor wrote: »

Meh!

We need to get a sports psychologist involved in this thread!

What's the point in trotting around For 13.1 miles on a cold Waterford morning when you could be racing

+1 If you are fit enough to run you are fit enough to race. Not racing a race just because you figure you aren't in shape to get a PB is a bad mental way to approach races. Get into this way of thinking and it will be easy to give up in future races when things aren't going your way.

If of course you are sick/injured then you shouldn't run at all.

Racing 100% will give you a good honest assessment of where you are right now fitness wise which is invaluable for judging your training paces etc.

I'd say you folks with doubts are likely to give yourselves a pleasant surprise if you give the race 100%. Also 13.1 miles is too far for a recovery run

Dilbert75

upthe19th wrote: »

You will come away from waterford positive.

See that's EXACTLY the point - given my various niggles and tweaks I could push myself for that pb and not get it, I could get it at a cost of longer-term injury (and I need to be able to run over the holidays or I'll spend my time eating) or I could end up not enjoying it. None of those would be good outcomes. I want to finish 2012 with the same carefree, nothing-to-lose running attitude I started with and be a happy and healthy runner going into 2013.

So instead I'm going to treat it as a celebration of a 12 months that saw me start running from scratch and end up with two halves and two full marathons under my belt. And Wexford half is a great course for a pb, so book it in your diaries for next April (this message was brought to you by Visit Wexford ).

career_move

Gavlor wrote: »

Meh!

We need to get a sports psychologist involved in this thread!

What's the point in trotting around For 13.1 miles on a cold Waterford morning when you could be racing

Our doubts are traitors, and make us lose the good we oft might win, by fearing to attempt.
William Shakespeare

Gavlor

career_move wrote: »

Did you ever consider scrapping the horses and taking a career in marketing?!

career_move

Gavlor wrote: »

Did you ever consider scrapping the horses and taking a career in marketing?!

Haha