Ash Dieback Disease (Chalara fraxinea) in Ireland

Oldtree

mountainy man wrote: »

http://wtcampaigns.wordpress.com/2013/03/08/ash-dieback-dna-breakthrough/

Looks like some good news at last.

But not enought to stop it. It looks like we will still be waiting for the resistant trees to survive (if any here, 1 in poland) and then breed from them.

Oldtree

Confirmed findings in UK at 4 March 2013:

Nursery sites - 19
Recently planted sites - 202
Wider environment, e.g. established woodland - 170
Total: 391

No increase again in NI nor in the UK's wider environment, has to be a good thing.

http://www.forestry.gov.uk/chalara

The_Conductor

Mind you- surely we'd surprised to find new cases at this time of the year?
Fungal spores will only be produced from perhaps May to September (depending on the weather)- and given we're now in the dormant season, you'd have to be incredibly vigilant to diagnose it at this time of the year.

April onwards will really a telling time!

The British Forestry Commission are making a presumption of disease spread within 20 miles of any identified outbreak per annum, and a complete spread of disease by the end of the decade, with perhaps a 2 to 3% of individual specimens surviving for as yet unknown genetic reasons.

How does this translate in an Irish context?
We have already identified stands of ash and classified them under a number of criterion including incremental growth rates against exposure levels. We know of genetic diversity in the Irish stock- is there anything we could be doing from an experimental viewpoint at this stage to try to pro-actively identify those specimens who may have relative immunity to the disease- rather than following the scatter shotgun approach Denmark and Holland are taking? Is there any merit in importing genetic specimens from Denmark/The Netherlands/Poland and using them to cross with Irish provenances?

What are we doing at the moment- and how can we proactively try to recover from where we're at, presuming we will similar to the UK be overrun by the end of the decade?

Oldtree

I think from the info i've seen that it would be very easy to spot semi and mature trees that have been affected within the last few years, looks kinda like witches brooms to me and infected saplings appear to be obvious to me too. I dont have confidence that our spotters will see it given how little resourses are being put into it here, the visible sign of that is the pathetic effort here compared with the effort in the uk.

there is wide genetic diversity within the ash population within europe Irelands has no more nor is it more special than the uk for example.

from the look of the infected wider environment sites in the uk i think they must know that they have been infected by wind blow spores from the continent, infection of wider environment dosnt stand up on the 20-30 mile spread per year. With only 1 tree or so standing in poland then i dont know where the 2-3% immunity trees comes from.

If we are unable to invest in a simple bit of kit to confirm the infected trees on site at the moment I dont hold out hopes of identifying immune trees in any way without the devestation coming through first. (the elm issue)

there seems little point in a breeding programme of any sort until we are sure of the immunity side of things, and my preference would be towards breeding local provenance stock only, not a business point of view i know.

what can we do proactively? "We" would not presumably include the people who since 2008 are still keeping a close eye on things :rolleyes:. WE could plant alternative species from a forestry viewpoint, plant out our own seedlings from a private view and cross our fingers.

I have continued to plant out my own ash but cut back to a third of what I intended and upped the willow and sycamore to cover the cutback, it seem prudent.

i also think that ash has now been written off by the powers that be given the investment needed to deal with this.

ford2600

Was at a forest growers meeting lately when this came up.

The two professional foresters in room spun yarn that is was looking positive and the FS were doing huge work. When I asked what were Ireland doing different to the other countries who had failed to stop spread they got awful quite.

Have a really nice 18yr old ash plantation, just hoping they will make it old enough for hurleys at this stage. Have put huge work in over years between weed control, shaping, tending and pruning. I'm bracing myself for the worst to be honest.

periodictable

ford2600 wrote: »

Was at a forest growers meeting lately when this came up.

The two professional foresters in room spun yarn that is was looking positive and the FS were doing huge work.

Forestry in Ireland is pretty incestuous,most pro foresters know each other, and sadly I've hears one or two disagree privately with the Forest Service, but publicly fawn over them because as one of them said to me " my livelihood depends on them approving my projects".
Pretty sad.

Chisler2

An experienced plantsman/gardener friends understanding of the situation is that Irish ash has been demonstrated to have the same genetic immunity as the Japanese ash which was the cradle of this disease. He heard that only imported ash was succumbing. If this is true, it is very good news.

The_Conductor

Chisler2 wrote: »

An experienced plantsman/gardener friends understanding of the situation is that Irish ash has been demonstrated to have the same genetic immunity as the Japanese ash which was the cradle of this disease. He heard that only imported ash was succumbing. If this is true, it is very good news.

I wish it were true- unfortunately its complete and utter nonsense. Irish ash is as susceptible as any other provenance of Fraxinus Excelsior- and whoever has gotten it in their head that Irish ash has similar resistance to Chalara, as Japanese Ash, is dreaming. A nice dream, but a dream, nonetheless.

Chisler2

He sounded confident, but I had wondered how the robustness of Irish ash had been confirmed so quickly. The outlook remains dire then.

Oldtree

Chisler2 wrote: »

He sounded confident, but I had wondered how the robustness of Irish ash had been confirmed so quickly. The outlook remains dire then.

Chisler2 i think you just need to look at the 2 websites, 1 for the UK and 1 for here, and compare the two. This will give you a clear picture of the situation in the UK and much less so here.

http://www.agriculture.gov.ie/forestservice/ashdiebackchalara/
http://www.forestry.gov.uk/chalara

Uk Confirmed findings at 18 March 2013:

Nursery sites - 19
Recently planted sites - 221
Wider environment, e.g. established woodland - 173
Total: 413

A new site discovered in NI brings the total there to 26.

raffopj

Oldtree wrote: »

Chisler2 i think you just need to look at the 2 websites, 1 for the UK and 1 for here, and compare the two. This will give you a clear picture of the situation in the UK and much less so here.

http://www.agriculture.gov.ie/forestservice/ashdiebackchalara/
http://www.forestry.gov.uk/chalara

Uk Confirmed findings at 18 March 2013:

Nursery sites - 19
Recently planted sites - 221
Wider environment, e.g. established woodland - 173
Total: 413

A new site discovered in NI brings the total there to 26.

It all makes grim reading. The 413 cases in the UK makes our 40-50 odd cases look pale in comparison but when you look at the difference in landmass it looks grim.

Oldtree

raffopj wrote: »

It all makes grim reading. The 413 cases in the UK makes our 40-50 odd cases look pale in comparison but when you look at the difference in landmass it looks grim.

the effort put in in the UK to finding the disease puts our efforts to shame imo. Dare I mention the Genie II again?

Jack180570

Oldtree wrote: »

the effort put in in the UK to finding the disease puts our efforts to shame imo. Dare I mention the Genie II again?

The effort of our forest service has been good in finding the disease but their way of dealing with it leaves much to be desired. . Up to 200 sites to be destroyed with no compensation for the forest owners

In the UK the top lady in the forestry ccommission had to resign over her 'slow handling' of the crisis. .. if the same standard was applied to the performance of our forest service it would be interesting. ..

Oldtree

Jack180570 wrote: »

The effort of our forest service has been good in finding the disease but their way of dealing with it leaves much to be desired. . Up to 200 sites to be destroyed with no compensation for the forest owners

In the UK the top lady in the forestry ccommission had to resign over her 'slow handling' of the crisis. .. if the same standard was applied to the performance of our forest service it would be interesting. ..

I'm a bit confused Jack (are you in the UK?) there are only 46 id'ed sites in republic of ireland so far as we've been informed.

As of today there are now 427 sites id'ed in the UK and now up to 29 in NI.

Jack180570

Hi Oldtree..
No I'm in Ireland... the figure that is given out by Forest Service is the number of sites that have been infected and where this has been confirmed by lab results. FS policy is that they will take out these sites PLUS any sites that have been planted with trees that are from the same batches as the ones where they have confirmed lab results of an infection. That is why it seems a bit confusing with the numbers.
Letters to some of the landowners were issued late last week and a further 140 odd are to be issued this week.

Oldtree

Jack180570 wrote: »

Hi Oldtree..
No I'm in Ireland... the figure that is given out by Forest Service is the number of sites that have been infected and where this has been confirmed by lab results. FS policy is that they will take out these sites PLUS any sites that have been planted with trees that are from the same batches as the ones where they have confirmed lab results of an infection. That is why it seems a bit confusing with the numbers.
Letters to some of the landowners were issued late last week and a further 140 odd are to be issued this week.

Thank you for that Jack, I didnt know that very recent bit of news. Are you our deep mole?? That seems like a very prudent thing to do. Any other information you have would be very welcome.

The spread from infected trees since 2008 (or even before) @ 20 miles per year gives a potential spread of 100 miles in each direction from known infected sites, that coupled with the lack of wider environment sites identified is something that really worries me along with the lack of public information on the general location of infected sites.

Do you know if the FS have any Genie II's?

Oldtree

Confirmed findings (as of 27 March 2013) of ash dieback (Chalara fraxinea) in RoI.

Forestry Plantations 31
Counties: Carlow, Cavan, Clare, Galway, Kildare, Kilkenny, Leitrim, Longford, Meath, Tipperary, Waterford

Horticultural Nurseries 14
Garden Centres 3
Private Garden 1
Farm Planting / AEOS 3
Roadside Planting 5

Total now of: 57 up from 46 in Feb.

and a map here of locations of sites:
http://www.agriculture.gov.ie/media/migration/forestry/ashdiebackchalara/Chalarafraxineaconfirmedfindings27032013.pdf

from here:
http://www.agriculture.gov.ie/forestservice/ashdiebackchalara/

and also worth reading is Reconstitution of Woodlands Scheme March 2013
http://www.agriculture.gov.ie/media/migration/forestry/ashdiebackchalara/ReconstitutionofWoodlandsChalarafraxineaSchemeMarch2013210313.pdf

Thanks Jack

The_Conductor

The Forestry Commission in the UK have announced plans to plant 250,000 ash sourced from all over the UK to try to identify any provenances that have a genetic immunity (relative or otherwise). Any plans for similar schemes here (or are we planning on piggy-backing on the UK's trials?

TomOnBoard

Jack180570 wrote: »

Letters to some of the landowners were issued late last week and a further 140 odd are to be issued this week.

What are landowners being told to do? Specifically, a) where destruction of plants is required, how are they to be destroyed, and b) how is leaf litter to be dealt with?

periodictable

TomOnBoard wrote: »

What are landowners being told to do? Specifically, a) where destruction of plants is required, how are they to be destroyed, and b) how is leaf litter to be dealt with?

I'd start with delivering it to Johnstown Castle.

The_Conductor

periodictable wrote: »

I'd start with delivering it to Johnstown Castle.

Delivering leaf litter to Johnstown Castle? Really? Someone there will hate you forever after. Surely a broadspectrum fungicide spray in the infected area, repeated at 6 week intervals over 2 seasons, would be a better course.

periodictable

People are paid to do a job. They have patently failed and refuse to accept accountability. Let them clear up the mess.
Once an Irish public servant has the integrity to accept their failures and take the honorable course of action,i.e.resign, I'll be happy to clear up the consequences of their negligence if it affects me.

The_Conductor

periodictable wrote: »

People are paid to do a job. They have patently failed and refuse to accept accountability. Let them clear up the mess.
Once an Irish public servant has the integrity to accept their failures and take the honorable course of action,i.e.resign, I'll be happy to clear up the consequences of their negligence if it affects me.

Maliciously sending them bulk loads of leaf litter isn't going to solve anything for anyone. Chalara and its presence in the country is not the fault of public servants- its an unfortunate fact of life. Perhaps certain steps might have been taken to slow it down- but once its out in the environment, its out there, and even with the best will in the world, its going to spread. If you're suggesting that once chalara is identified that some poor soul from Johnstown should come out and collect all your leaves for you- you're going to be sorely disappointed.

I actually thought you were being sarcastic with your comment about sending all the leaf littler to Johnstown, but apparently, you're not.

There are lots of different diseases out there in the environment- that we can do very little about. Look at the vine weevil, fire blight, cereal rusts etc- do you blame someone in Johnstown for them too?

Chalara is a devastating disease- and it is going to be 30-40 years before we have stands of ash immune to it, dotted throughout the country again. Playing the blame game, isn't going to achieve anything- we need to see how we can rescue the situation so we have ash growing here again, as expeditiously as possible. The approach in the UK- to plant a quarter of a million stems from seed gathered throughout the UK, The Netherlands and Denmark- is a very good idea. Sure- the vast bulk of them will die- but a few hardy stems will survive for testing for the next generation- and eventually there will be progeny who are genetically immune to the fungus.

We can probably piggyback onto this research- and the provenances will broadly suit our climate- so it makes sense to take stock of what our neighbours are doing, and see how we can leverage it to all our advantages.

As devastating as Chalara is to Ash- think of the situation we'd be in, if something similar arose, but with a penchant for Sitka Spruce, rather than Ash? We'd be clearfelling 16% of the country in one foul swoop........ Ash, for better or worse, was rarely planted in monoculture- with a few notable exceptions.

Pointing the finger and playing the blame game, isn't going to solve anything for anyone........

periodictable

Malicious-look up a definition of it-malicious I ain't. Rather incredibly angry that the forest service leadership has wantonly failed in the protection of the forest base. These guys were monitoring the problem for over 5 years, and did nothing sensible such as preventing the importation of potentially diseased plants. Compare the behavior of department officials to protecting the national beef herd when there's a disease affecting beef animals on the Continent. Care to remember footbaths at farm entrances during Foot and Mouth?
Yes I was being sarcastic- perhaps I ought to have said mail it to Inspector Seamus Dunne in Leeson Lane or wherever his office is. The buck stops with him.
Fireblight was first brought to this country in 1986 or 1987, most likely on infected plants. The response was to increase inspections drastically. Comparing firelight to Chalara is akin to comparing a head cold to SARS. Fire blight has not had the appalling impact that Chalara has been having;neither has vine weevil, and vine weevil and rusts can be controlled by pesticides.
Let's build on what we have- an island off an island off a continent-tremendous protection potential, and a tightening up on plant importation would obviously help as well as boost home production.
Ash is planted in monoculture wherever I've seen it, be it 1/2 an acre or 20 acres.
Pointing the finger....that's a new one. There is increasing and unnecessary state interference in forestry in this state so who will carry the can for the inevitable cock ups that are on the way?
In previous posts I've commented on the incestuous nature of the forestry profession in Ireland. However personal friendships and misguided loyalty is no excuse to let someone off the hook.Some foresters are terrified and feel powerless to complain about the questionable behavior of certain inspectors and their inability to exercise discretion, because at the end of the day, they depend on the same Inspectors to sign off on their applications. These people are well paid and insulated. There is no accountability. A little integrity and soul searching is long overdue.

TomOnBoard

TomOnBoard wrote: »

What are landowners being told to do? Specifically, a) where destruction of plants is required, how are they to be destroyed, and b) how is leaf litter to be dealt with?

Just restating my original question as above, as it may have got lost in the last few posts.

periodictable

From the British Forestry Commission

Managing infected trees

You can also help to slow the spread of the disease to other ash trees in your area by, where practicable, collecting up and burning, burying or composting the fallen leaves.

http://www.forestry.gov.uk/chalara#managing%20infected%20trees

The_Conductor

periodictable wrote: »

Compare the behavior of department officials to protecting the national beef herd when there's a disease affecting beef animals on the Continent. Care to remember footbaths at farm entrances during Foot and Mouth?

I remember the footbaths everywhere during foot-and-mouth very well.
Its all well and good saying- 'we're an island, off and island, off a continent- therefore we have (or had) tremendous potential to exclude Chalara from our country.

Yes- infected forestry stock was imported, akin to what happened in the UK, however this only introduced the disease faster than it might otherwise have been introduced.

Remember Chalara is airborne- and airborne infections have been recorded as the major infection vector even in the UK. We can (or could) have excluded suspicious nursery stock, even if it all had legitimate phytosanitary certificates, which apparently it had- however we can't excludes migratory birds, continental airflow, contamination from travellers on the continent and/or their vehicles etc etc. Foot-and-Mouth on the other hand- required direct contact with an infected animal- which unfortunately was introduced by sheep smuggling (if my memory serves me right).

Using the best possible precautions- we might have slowed down the spread of Chalara- but we most certainly would not have excluded it, and this is irrespective of what activities the Forest Service or anyone else might have taken.

We're now in a situation- where we have to accept-

- it is present
- it is going to spread throughout the country
- it is going to impact on all of us who planted ash
- we need a recovery plan
- our close neighbours have very useful research underway
- we can piggyback on their research, to the advantage of both the UK and us
- regardless of what happens- we are looking at a recovery in stock taking 25-30 years, and possibly 50 years before we will have healthy stands of trees to harvest from again

These are unfortunate facts. How are we going to progress onwards from our current situation? Do we pretend to be ostrich's and stick our heads in the sand, like we're so damn good at in this country? Do we spend our time pointing fingers and playing the blame game? Do we insist that there is no such thing as a natural disaster- there has to be someone to blame? We can do down the road of persecuting various individuals or organisations (or even take the Italian approach and prosecute them- remember they have seismologists in court over their failure to accurately predict earthquakes).......

Blaming named individuals- isn't going to achieve diddly squat- that is the point I am trying to make- and its also a failure to recognise that there are some things that we just can't control.........

?

periodictable

smccarrick wrote: »

Blaming named individuals- isn't going to achieve diddly squat- that is the point I am trying to make- and its also a failure to recognise that there are some things that we just can't control.........

?

Were this to happen in the private sector, the head of the organization would be shown the door.
Why it's not acceptable to demand the same from a public body is beyond me. The public money invested by the state in grants and premia, as well as the trust of the landowner in making a commitment to plant have been jeopardized by the Forest Service dropping the ball. The reputations of those other competent and diligent inspectors have been sullied by this incompetence. If you take the top job and it's glories, such as they are, have the basic moral cop on to accept your responsibilities and fall on your sword.
Where's the proof that the disease here began with airborne spores? It's been traced to imported stock.
As for the Italians, well...a country that has elects a new government every 9 months....

Oldtree

my main worry would be the loss or dilution of our own unique genetic stock. While i understnd the need from a commercial standpoint to just work with ash and move forward with immune stock I cannot see anybody taking the financial risk, can you? Therefore these trials in the uk seem nothing more than a curiosity as would any trials here, not that i would disagree with them as i love the ash and want it preserved. but any efforts now on a governmental level are too little too late imo. it must be remembered that there is only 1 ash tree standing in poland that is possibly immune and the chances of finding that one in a trial here is more than a long shot.

Oldtree

TomOnBoard wrote: »

What are landowners being told to do? Specifically, a) where destruction of plants is required, how are they to be destroyed, and b) how is leaf litter to be dealt with?

tom have a read of this:

http://www.agriculture.gov.ie/media/migration/forestry/ashdiebackchalara/ReconstitutionofWoodlandsChalarafraxineaSchemeMarch2013210313.pdf