Ash Dieback Disease (Chalara fraxinea) in Ireland

TopTec

Would of liked to read it Oldtree but you have to register or subscribe to do that.:(

TT

TomOnBoard

Oldtree wrote: »

SUPPLY OF 40,000 HURLEY PLANKS FROM COILLTE THIS WINTER

Lots of questions arising from this. What is the specification that they are supplying to- What DBH are they 'bringing forward'. When would they have been harvested otherwise? Are they giving private owners an opportunity to 'bring forward' harvesting if they want to? Or is Coillte seeing an opportunity to corner the market?

Oldtree

TopTec wrote: »

Would of liked to read it Oldtree but you have to register or subscribe to do that.:(

TT

got it without subs on google search:



Race to register potential ash dieback cure
By Matthew ApplebyFriday, 23 November 2012
Plant physiologist in bid to register BASF's Signum with Chemicals Regulation Directorate for injecting amenity ash trees.
Glynn Percival championing fungicide - image: Palmstead
A fungicide used on fruit and vegetables could be the answer to ash dieback, which is now endemic in the UK.
Plant physiologist Dr Glynn Percival said he is registering, through Dove Associates, BASF's Signum with the Chemicals Regulation Directorate (CRD) for injection into amenity ash trees.
Percival, who manages the Bartlett Trees UK research laboratory at the University of Reading, said: "I have a potential fungicide for ash dieback and I'm trying to get one registered for amenity use through the CRD because it's a bit silly all we're told we have no cure.
"Of course there's a cure. Fungus is controlled with fungicides. We just need them registered. Injection technology works with Dutch elm disease and can for Chalara ash dieback - at least it gives an option."
He said registration could be fast-tracked in weeks or could take a year. "But we have got the process rolling and have our fingers crossed. I'm hoping it is viewed favourably and is fast-tracked but it's out of our hands."
The felling of 100,000 ash trees is having no impact, Percival added, and felling 100 million ash in the USA did not stop ash borer. "It's frustrating that in the UK there's only one option. I call it slash and burn because you cut them down and set them on fire. In the USA they are far more used to dealing with those epidemics."
He said the cost of injection technology has come down and safe micro-injection systems are used extensively in the USA but don't seem to be adopted over here. "This could happen real quick and injecting is a lot cheaper then felling. I don't think the Government has been made aware of it."
Percival also said systemic phosphite fertiliser products "can be very beneficial in switching on tree defence systems" and were widely used in the USA and Australia. "I'm not sure why we're not looking at this. It's frustrating that all we have is no cure and there are lots of other things we should do."
Bur Percival said his "controversial" ideas were received negatively by some organisations that advise the Government at an International Dendrology Society conference chaired by Tony Kirkham at Kew this month.
"Some think (injections) are economically unacceptable but why not let landowners decide?" He said he was also accused of "environmental irresponsibility", but added: "What about felling and burning? You lose habitats for birds, bats and squirrels and how many billions of beneficial insects do we burn?" He pointed out that microrhyzzial upset is also an unknown but felling and burning is undoubtedly "incredibly destructive".
Percival is not involved in Government advisory boards on ash dieback but said he has had a lot of support in the industry, including tree officer associations.
He said ash dieback hitting the UK was "just a matter of time because of our biosecurity. If it hadn't been ash it would have been something else. I don't see too much changing. Ash should have been banned a long time ago. Tony Kirkham and I said we need to start quarantining trees like our pets."
He warned that Massaria and Ceratocystis platani on London planes and sweet chestnut blight are "heading this way" and the UK remains unprepared for them.
At a recent East Malling International Plant Propagators Society conference, German nursery stock adviser Heinrich Losing said dieback could be controlled on nurseries using mancozeb, chlorothalonil and prochloraz, preventing the disease from infecting trees after sale and planting out. He added that Fraxinus americana, F. ornus and F. pennsylvanica look like being tolerant to the disease.
Meanwhile, the Botanic Society for the British Isles said: "It seems unlikely that Chalara fraxinea will decimate wild populations of ash in Britain. It is most likely to infect a proportion of saplings, simply forcing natural selection of surviving, disease-tolerant varieties. British ash already tolerate at least 100 pests and diseases, so one more is not likely to make a big difference."
ASH DIEBACK DISEASE COUNTING THE COST
Nurseries hit by ash dieback: 15
Crowders Nurseries (Horncastle, Lincolnshire): losses of £200,000- bought from J&A Growers and grown on the continent.
Buckingham Nurseries: Losses of "tens of thousands" but being compensated by Dutch supplier. General manager Mike Easom recommends more use of phone app - see http://ashtag.org.
Plants Ltd (Chobham, Surrey): German saplings worth £3,000.
Bernhard's Nurseries (Rugby, Warwickshire): origin unknown.
Farnley Estates nursery at Farnley Tyas, Huddersfield: 1,700 ash propagated in Germany.
Total value of ash stock currently held by UK nurseries: £2.5m+
- 13 per cent of growers have destroyed ash stocks.
- 43 per cent report that they will have to destroy stocks in the future (HTA).
http://www.google.ie/#hl=en&sugexp=les%3B&gs_nf=3&cp=43&gs_id=4&xhr=t&q=Race+to+register+potential+ash+dieback+cure&pf=p&tbo=d&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&oq=Race+to+register+potential+ash+dieback+cure&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=ee911d19d779f76e&bpcl=38897761&biw=1146&bih=723

Oldtree

The depatrment has asked us to:

Please do not remove any plant material from a site containing suspect trees. Also, please observe the following hygiene measures on sites where the disease is suspected, to help avoid its potential spread.
•Footwear: Wash off all soil & plant debris from boots. Spray your boots with disinfectant and dispose of any used water onto an area where the water will not run into a watercourse.
•Clothing: Check all clothing for any plant material.
•Tools & Equipment: Wash off all soil & plant debris and disinfect and dispose of any used water onto an area where the water will not run into a watercourse.

That brings into question this years hunting season, both irish hunters and the influx of hunters and their equiptment from the continent.

Would it be prudent to draw a close to this years hunting season by the hunters, out of respect for the land owners given the unknown spread of this disease.
What meassures are they going to take in this respect?
Do they care?
Is it going to be left to land owners to protect their Ash plants?

Oldtree

TomOnBoard wrote: »

Lots of questions arising from this. What is the specification that they are supplying to- What DBH are they 'bringing forward'. When would they have been harvested otherwise? Are they giving private owners an opportunity to 'bring forward' harvesting if they want to? Or is Coillte seeing an opportunity to corner the market?

As it is an early harvest what does that mean for future supply/plantings, is this another example of kicking the can down the road rather than biteing the bullet now???

periodictable

Sadly one is dealing with mediocre people in the Forest Service. Most are city people who are paid by the state and the import of what they have allowed to occur means SFA to them The minister of course is obviously in thrall to them( they went to UNI don't you know) so will defer to them on everything-the guy cannot even make a coherent speech(like most of them). People whose livelihoods depend on forestry-that's most people outside of the Forest Service- and those with an interest and knowledge of trees know what needs to be done. Unfortunately no positive action will occur until it's too late.

manjou

The problem is the way that the diease is spread.Stopping hunting etc will only delay it as wildlife travel long distances aswell.If there are ways of controling it with fungicides etc this would be a better idea. I would inject all my mature ash trees if it would work but it would have to be cost effective.My uncle in england who is a tree surgeon made his money trying to save elm trees. I dont know the soloution but i fear closing door after horse is gone may be case at this stage and we can only find ways to limit the damage.

Oldtree

In my mind it is all about delaying the spread at the moment, as I do not see any way of preventing total ingress of an airborne pathogen. Delaying the disease is not pointless as the delay will allow us more time to try and get some sort of prevention/innoculation togeather (hopefully).

A hunter bringing in a spore or two now to your plants is not a better situation that the spores coming in on widlife in a few years time, nor is allowing an open unnatural avenue for the spores to get here (that we can do somthing about) vs a natural one (that we can do nothing about) .so closing the door now is always preferable to not closing the door or closing the door in a few years time. Never say die...

Oldtree

Ash dieback investigations at 36 sites in NI

http://www.u.tv/News/Ash-dieback-investigations-at-36-sites/4df49c41-e46e-4033-9c90-31361bc5191d

More than 20,000 saplings imported from a Scottish nursery infected with a deadly tree disease have been distributed across Northern Ireland

Another 15 sites in counties Antrim and Down with symptoms of the disease are under investigation and officials are waiting for laboratory test results to confirm if ash dieback — a fungus spread by spores — is present.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/environment/ash-dieback-disease-probe-at-36-sites-search-on-after-infected-trees-imported-from-scotland-16240346.html

I wonder how many have been distributed across Ireland?

Oldtree

"Ash dieback disease has been confirmed at a further six Northern Ireland sites, It brings the total number of confirmed cases to 11"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-20510609

Uk up to 237 cases not including the 6 new sites in NI:
http://www.forestry.gov.uk/chalara

"Promising new research in the fight against ash dieback"(my bum )

http://cordis.europa.eu/fetch?CALLER=EN_NEWS&ACTION=D&SESSION=&RCN=35286

Oldtree

Dutch elm disease in Ireland was first positively identified in 1958

Wednesday, 5 November 1975
http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/debateswebpack.nsf/takes/dail1975110500024?opendocument
Thursday, 4 November 1976
http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/debateswebpack.nsf/takes/dail1976110400009?opendocument
Tuesday, 9 December 1986
http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/1986/12/09/00016.asp#N3

Back then, it was assumed -- or at least hoped -- that Dutch elm disease would not cross the Irish Sea. We know the bitter truth today in this now elmless isle.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/kevin-myers/kevin-myers-its-time-we-saw-the-wood-for-the-trees-3280303.html

history repeating itself, "Its not here".....

Oldtree

Chalara die back of ash - disposal of ash leaves and saplings, UK guidlines advice note published

http://www.forestry.gov.uk/forestry/infd-92gjvb

crackcrack30

Digger in and land prep ongoing, should be ready to plant next week....
Really really wanted to plant 2-3 acres of ash and was told that the native ash saps will/are resistant???? what would u /should i do???

TomOnBoard

crackcrack30 wrote: »

Digger in and land prep ongoing, should be ready to plant next week....
Really really wanted to plant 2-3 acres of ash and was told that the native ash saps will/are resistant???? what would u /should i do???

So long as you are satisfied that the saps are Chalara-free, you would be as well to proceed. However, I don't see how anyone can claim any particular saps to be resistant.

Rovi

It's an awful dilemma

I planted 1 acre this time last year, and for the moment I intend leaving it and hoping for the best. I'm told it's native, but I've sent my forester off to confirm for certain.

Given the spread of this thing across Europe and Great Britain, and the confirmed cases both here and in Northern Ireland, I have close to zero confidence in the strident pronouncements of the Minister that he and the Forestry Service have this under control.

As already stated, I also don't see how anyone can claim that their saplings are resistant.

Oldtree

crackcrack30 wrote: »

Really really wanted to plant 2-3 acres of ash and was told that the native ash saps will/are resistant???? what would u /should i do???

Rovi wrote: »

It's an awful dilemma
I have close to zero confidence in the strident pronouncements of the Minister that he and the Forestry Service have this under control..

I would seriously question the professionalism of someone who said the words "resistant" and "ash" in the same sentence and fire them on the spot. That is rubbish. The breeding programme for resistant local stock will only commence once we have been ravaged by the disease and we can see what, if anything, is left standing.

Given the unknown spread here of the disease and the rate it is going accross the continent and the UK, it would seem prudent in a professional setting where I was looking for a crop a number of decades away, not to plant any ash for the forseeable future or untill I had a better picture of the spread of this disease given the agressiveness of this disease.

However in a private capacity I really like ash and will continue to include my own ash seedlings in the mix for firewood in a copse I am making for the home. Hoping for the best, but in a mix to ensure for the worst. I also intend to keep up the clearance of sycamore from my native ash/hazel woodland (semi-natural, including ancient woodland indicators, also using natural regeneration of ash) and to hope for the best, but that is an established woodland.

2-3 acres is not too big a risk, but a risk nonetheless. If it is grant aided then you are covered in that replacement costs are to be met for now, and presumably for some time into the future and this mitigates some of the risk. Privately funded and I would jump ship esp with the use of the "resistance" language (is that use of language negligence or a breech of contract?), and plant something else.

The words "it's not here" by the minister left me with zero confidence too.

periodictable

This has been "monitored" by the Forest Service since at least 2008-they knew it was out there, but still let it in.
I'd venture there is a real case for legal action against both the department and the personnel involved in so called "monitoring". I want the IFA and forest owners to lobby the minister for inclusion of any ash plantations to be given a recon grant, plus a lump sum for anticipated losses.

Oldtree

Oldtree wrote: »

The minister mentioned an outbreak in Tipperary, slip of the tongue while he was thinking about hurling maby?

I guess I didnt mishear the Minister:

http://www.tippfm.com/news/detail/ash_die_back_disease_confirmed_in_2_tipperary_sites



UK up to 257 sites as of 27th November:
http://www.forestry.gov.uk/chalara

crackcrack30

Probably have to decide on this tommorow or monday, fencing today......the fact that its in tipperary is devastating news.....have been planning this ash plantation for the past two years, and it was destined for future fuel supply rather than commerical gain......at least it is grant aided.....

I will narrow down the hardwood area to two acres between myself and neighbours house......what should i plant with future fuel in mind (ash excluded)..:(

TomOnBoard

crackcrack30 wrote: »

I will narrow down the hardwood area to two acres between myself and neighbours house......what should i plant with future fuel in mind (ash excluded)..:(

I don't know if you'll get the grant for it, but I'd consider setting up an area ( not all the remaining acreage) of Willow and manage it by coppicing on a 5-year rotation . Fuel in 5 years time.

See: http://www.thewillowbank.com/willow.firewood.facts.htm

Also consider Sycamore. It grows big and burns well when well seasoned.

What type if stove do you intend to use?

TomOnBoard

periodictable wrote: »

they knew it was out there, but still let it in.

Ridiculous statement. Whilst accepting that bio security should be a lot better, and the originally infected Dutch saps ought to have been detected by border biosecurity controls both here and in UK, not to mention the hurley Ash and firewood coming in from Eastern Europe by the container-load, you can't blame the FS for Chalara in Irl. The wind from the East is a far more likely culprit.

periodictable

Oldtree wrote: »

Who produced the map?

Oldtree

just an ireland map with the infected counties coloured red using mspaint. I felt that was ok to get the point across given that the spores can go 20-30km per year and infected stock has been here for over 3 years, so possible 90km covered in all directions already but I limited it to county boundries. There is no specific department data on exactly where the currently infected sites are.

Oldtree

TomOnBoard wrote: »

Ridiculous statement. Whilst accepting that bio security should be a lot better, and the originally infected Dutch saps ought to have been detected by border biosecurity controls both here and in UK, not to mention the hurley Ash and firewood coming in from Eastern Europe by the container-load, you can't blame the FS for Chalara in Irl. The wind from the East is a far more likely culprit.

No wild sites reported here yet....

and if they were aware and keeping an eye out for it in 2008 you would have to agree there is some culpability there.

Oldtree

crackcrack30 wrote: »

Probably have to decide on this tommorow or monday, fencing today......the fact that its in tipperary is devastating news.....have been planning this ash plantation for the past two years, and it was destined for future fuel supply rather than commerical gain......at least it is grant aided.....

I will narrow down the hardwood area to two acres between myself and neighbours house......what should i plant with future fuel in mind (ash excluded)..:(

a couple of different Willows and poplars, and sycamore seem to be the best choice for short rotation at the moment.

or these: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056810990

TomOnBoard

Oldtree wrote: »

No wild sites reported here yet....

and if they were aware and keeping an eye out for it in 2008 you would have to agree there is some culpability there.

I can see that culpability exists at the level of "the Authorities" (both North and South) who have totally failed to design and implement appropriate bio-security measures for the island. A large number of agencies, departments and organisations share that culpability with overall fault lying with successive Ministers of Agriculture. I just think it is entirely unfair and very unhelpful to single out the Forest Service. If the FS has been "keeping an eye out for it since 2008", they either:

a) didn't find any because it wasn't there; or
b) didn't find any because it was there but their "keeping an eye out" regimes were crap; or
c) found it but did nothing about it or covered it up.

I believe that the truth lies mostly in a). I hope it wasn't b) but I consider it possible. If it was c) which I cannot really believe, then all hell should break loose.

periodictable

TomOnBoard wrote: »

I just think it is entirely unfair and very unhelpful to single out the Forest Service.

I don't.
The increasing movement between countries of forest plants and wood products (e.g. logs, sawn
timber, wooden pallets, crates and ships dunnage) increases the risk of potentially very damaging
forest pests and diseases spreading to Ireland.
The policy of the Forest Service in this area is to maintain a healthy forest environment by ensuring
good management, identifying risks and maintaining a sustained commitment to measures which
prevent the entry and establishment of destructive forest pests and diseases.
Under the EU Plant Health Directive strict regulatory controls are in place to prevent the entry of
exotic insect pests and diseases which could seriously damage our forests. These relate to the
movement of forest plants and wood products into Ireland both from within the EU and from
non-EU countries.
(Taken from the Forestry Schemes manual)
I mean, how clear is that? We're not talking about advanced plans to colonize Mars.

These people are more than well-compensated to do a job, and if they cannot do it they should be fired-it would happen in the private sector. At the very least they should do the honorable thing and resign.
The realities appear to be that the source of ash die-back disease in this country is from imported planting stock. How does one prevent this stock getting in, if there's a potential threat? One imposes an outright ban- pure and simple. If anyone believes in compliance with voluntary non-importation of stock from infected areas, then they believe in the tooth fairy.
Millions has been invested in grant-aid and premia to develop a broad-leaf component to our forest base.
Fact is, the Forest Service fell down on the job, and let's have a little accountability and an owning up to the total cock up that has been made.
More attention is paid to landscaping in forestry-a more subjective concept in the industry I cannot imagine- and time, regulations and sanctions applied to what does not conform to the "perception" of landscape-it's like something from Chairman Mao's Little Red Book.
Time to haul some people over the coals and ask them to explain, as one would to a three year old, what exactly they did to carry out the policy of the Forest Service with respect to plant health.

TomOnBoard

periodictable wrote: »

I don't.
The increasing movement between countries of forest plants and wood products (e.g. logs, sawn
timber, wooden pallets, crates and ships dunnage) increases the risk of potentially very damaging
forest pests and diseases spreading to Ireland.
The policy of the Forest Service in this area is to maintain a healthy forest environment by ensuring
good management, identifying risks and maintaining a sustained commitment to measures which
prevent the entry and establishment of destructive forest pests and diseases.
Under the EU Plant Health Directive strict regulatory controls are in place to prevent the entry of
exotic insect pests and diseases which could seriously damage our forests. These relate to the
movement of forest plants and wood products into Ireland both from within the EU and from
non-EU countries.
(Taken from the Forestry Schemes manual)
I mean, how clear is that? We're not talking about advanced plans to colonize Mars.

These people are more than well-compensated to do a job, and if they cannot do it they should be fired-it would happen in the private sector. At the very least they should do the honorable thing and resign.
The realities appear to be that the source of ash die-back disease in this country is from imported planting stock. How does one prevent this stock getting in, if there's a potential threat? One imposes an outright ban- pure and simple. If anyone believes in compliance with voluntary non-importation of stock from infected areas, then they believe in the tooth fairy.
Millions has been invested in grant-aid and premia to develop a broad-leaf component to our forest base.
Fact is, the Forest Service fell down on the job, and let's have a little accountability and an owning up to the total cock up that has been made.
More attention is paid to landscaping in forestry-a more subjective concept in the industry I cannot imagine- and time, regulations and sanctions applied to what does not conform to the "perception" of landscape-it's like something from Chairman Mao's Little Red Book.
Time to haul some people over the coals and ask them to explain, as one would to a three year old, what exactly they did to carry out the policy of the Forest Service with respect to plant health.

I'm quoting all this reply so that my response can be seen in that context.

Firstly, I apologize sincerely to periodictable for my characterisation of his post as a "Ridiculous statement". I sincerely believed that to be true at the time, but based on the contributions from both oldtree and periodictable, I must now acknowledge I was wrong. Based on the arguments presented so far, the FS has a serious case to answer.

Again, apologies to periodictable for any slight caused.

Oldtree

This is a free and open debate on what I consider to be a very important issue and we all have, and are entitled to, our opinions. We all have something to contribute and I think its important for any aspect of this to be challenged from any perspective. TomOnBoard, I welcome your contributions as this gets me thinking too and questioning my own decisions and ideas, and I'm old by name but I'm not too old to learn something new from a different perspective.

marching on...: The disease has really taking off in the UK

"NEARLY every ancient woodland managed by Suffolk Wildlife Trust now has a confirmed case of chalara ash dieback disease - including one of the UK’s most important sites"
http://www.eadt.co.uk/news/suffolk_ash_dieback_threatens_county_s_ancient_woodlands_1_1726722

what is in front of ash tree owners:

"Gardeners will have to fell 'dangerous' ash trees or face being sued"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/earthnews/9715336/Gardeners-will-have-to-fell-dangerous-ash-trees-or-face-being-sued.html#

periodictable

What's that all about????
I obviously missed something, but I rarely take offense at any attack , because it usually means I've upset someone's idea of whatever.
I know many FS staff-great guys and women, but some seriously limited with respect to initiative, imagination and vision, to put it mildly.....safe to say I'll never work for the state. I've a different background, interest and life experience to most of my colleagues, and when they ask why, I ask why not.
Again, water off a duck's back for me.
I should add, that although attacking the public service is popular, it's too easy to lump all in together.
It's simple to me-someone has dropped the ball, and it turned out to be a mini-nuclear device. I want accountability at the very least- of course I won't be holding my breath- but as a tax payer, a forester and a concerned citizen, I demand an answer.
When incidents like this happen, I unfortunately feel vindicated by the disdain in which I hold the current leadership of the Forest Service.