Ash Dieback Disease (Chalara fraxinea) in Ireland

TomOnBoard

smccarrick wrote: »

Its crown die-back you're looking for, not normal leaf fall. Several related fungus are endemic on ash and spread via leaf litter- but do not cause crown die-back in the way Chalara does.

Doesn't answer my question..

Oldtree

Good question as its easy to spot in the summer, less obvious to spot at this time of year with leaf fall compounding the problem.

I compiled details of known symptoms from further up this thread that may help us, but I'm sure more details need to be added:

The mushrooms should now be gone due to frosts. To my eye the leaves of infected plants look a bit more contorted, curled and twisted than normally shed leaves, but I would not rely on that alone for diagnosis as it would be too easy to make a mistake. I think I would be looking more for combinations of more progressed symptoms of the disease such as dieback of the twigs, the diamond shaped mark on the stem at branch junctions and wood discolouration.

pictures of symptoms here:

page 9 infected twig detail
page 10 stem damage
page 12 wood discolouration

http://www.teagasc.ie/publications/2012/1121/Heinrich_Loesing.pdf

and detailed symptom videos to watch:

I get the impression (rightly/wrongly) that the dept are not relying on these symptoms alone and are doing lab tests to comfirm diagnosis (I hope)

robp

Oldtree wrote: »

Good question as its easy to spot in the summer, less obvious to spot at this time of year with leaf fall compounding the problem.

I compiled details of known symptoms from further up this thread that may help us, but I'm sure more details need to be added:

The mushrooms should now be gone due to frosts. To my eye the leaves of infected plants look a bit more contorted, curled and twisted than normally shed leaves, but I would not rely on that alone for diagnosis as it would be too easy to make a mistake. I think I would be looking more for combinations of more progressed symptoms of the disease such as dieback of the twigs, the diamond shaped mark on the stem at branch junctions and wood discolouration.

pictures of symptoms here:

page 9 infected twig detail
page 10 stem damage
page 12 wood discolouration

http://www.teagasc.ie/publications/2012/1121/Heinrich_Loesing.pdf

and detailed symptom videos to watch:

I get the impression (rightly/wrongly) that the dept are not relying on these symptoms alone and are doing lab tests to comfirm diagnosis (I hope)

Portable DNA tests are possible. I hope our gov invest in these.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20229813

Northern Ireland is being searched for the fungus.

ucdperson

It is notable from the BBC link posted by robp above that the border can be easily spotted on a plot of ash trees, reflecting different forestry policies?

manjou

There was a man on bbc morning programme from uk department today.He said that they probably wont persist with slash and burn and just have to live with it and breed from the ash that survive as 1% appear immune to diease.He also said it spreads at abbout 12 miles a year so should reach me in 2 or 3 years from leitrim.

The_Conductor

The press release yesterday also stated that they don't intend to destroy any mature ash- that only juvenile stands would be targeted, and best practices would be studied to try to encourage identification of those specimens who have relative genetic immunity to the disease.

Asiatic ash is now considered immune- so even if its a 1% level of immunity- which sounds low- its probably sufficient to recreate our native ash, particularly given the diverse nature of it in informal uses all over the country.

TopTec

Yeah, I watched that expert on the Beeb this morning. very depressing listening to him. He clearly knew his subject and is the first I have heard admit there is nothing that can be done and we will have to let the disease run it's course.

Interestingly, he thinks we should not cut down diseased trees as they are habitats for masses of other creepy crawlies. Just let nature run its course.

I don't look forward to a gradually rotting and bare summer landscape though.


TT

Oldtree

robp wrote: »

Portable DNA tests are possible. I hope our gov invest in these.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20229813

Northern Ireland is being searched for the fungus.

see pages 4 and 5 in this PDF for full details of the machines being used, a Smartcycler Genie II:

http://www.fera.defra.gov.uk/news/documents/feraSolutions4.pdf

and Michael Viney speaks again, eloquent as ever:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2012/1110/1224326387712.html

Oldtree

UK government claims "Hands Tied" in 2009 so unable to stop imports of diseased trees:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2012/nov/08/ash-dieback-government-powerless-disease

now up to 129 confirmed infected sites:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/earthnews/9667795/Ash-dieback-tree-disease-is-here-to-stay-minister-warns.html

Oldtree

ucdperson wrote: »

It is notable from the BBC link posted by robp above that the border can be easily spotted on a plot of ash trees, reflecting different forestry policies?

It may not be policy that has caused this, more that the land owner is going for short term rewards ie sitka. Could you imagine eg. oak forests being planted on a large scale in ireland? That requires a mindset change to rewarding your great grandchildren.

Oldtree

yellowlabrador wrote: »

Here's another video about ash dieback this time it's someone from Nottingham University
http://youtu.be/DaYPjQE3Wtw

TopTec wrote: »

Yeah, I watched that expert on the Beeb this morning. very depressing listening to him. He clearly knew his subject and is the first I have heard admit there is nothing that can be done and we will have to let the disease run it's course.

yellowlabrador's youtube link posted earlier is worth a look as the video seems to suggest that there is nothing we can do and just accept what is happening as this is part of a natural cycle, albeit augmented by our own lack of bio security, but perhaps also helped by the wind as they are seeming to point to in the UK for infections occuring nowhere near recent plantings.

TomOnBoard

smccarrick wrote: »

Asiatic ash is now considered immune- so even if its a 1% level of immunity- which sounds low- its probably sufficient to recreate our native ash, particularly given the diverse nature of it in informal uses all over the country.

What is the particular Ash variety or genus or whatever that is native to IE? I am seeing so many Latin names at the moment and would like to know what is likely to be the hedgerow Ash of ancient Hurley fame.

The_Conductor

TomOnBoard wrote: »

What is the particular Ash variety or genus or whatever that is native to IE? I am seeing so many Latin names at the moment and would like to know what is likely to be the hedgerow Ash of ancient Hurley fame.

Ireland's native ash tree is known in Latin as-

Fraxinus excelsior L.

Its commonly known as the European Ash- and is the same ash as you'll find in a range going all the way across the UK, France, Holland, Germany, Poland, and across up into the Nordic countries. This is known as a range for a species- and where in the range a particular grouping is found, is the provenance. Trees in a particular area (provenance) while genetically similar to trees hundreds or even thousands of miles away- will have adaptations associated with where they are found- climatic/site or otherwise.

Fraxinus is the umbrella family name for the various ash members
excelsior is the subfamily
L. is the guy who put together the naming structures for animals and plants (a Swedish guy called Linnaeus)

There are submembers of the Fraxinus Excelsior grouping- which may not be native to Ireland at all (such as the Fraxinus excelsior 'jaspidea' that you'll find in many garden centres- colloquailly known as the 'golden ash'- its an ornamental ash with beautiful colourings, very forgiving of exposed sites, unlike our Irish ash, which has a logarithmic reduction in annual incremental growth associated with the site exposure rating).

There are other cousins of the Fraxinus excelsior not native to Ireland, but here nonetheless-

Fraxinus olaceae (the olive tree native to Spain/Portugal/Italy etc)
Fraxinus americana- native to the East Coast in the US
Fraxinus japonica- the ornamental Japanese ash etc etc etc

There isn't a single Asiatic ash- there are over 20 different distinct branches of the family- some of which aren't even trees (the lilac family- are also close relatives).

All members of the Fraxinus umbrella encompassing many many different types of trees and plants, appear to either be susceptible to Chalara, or to have been susceptible to it at some stage in the past and have developed a resistance to it subsequently.

There is a good Wikipedia article on the various ash families (with some glaring inaccuracies) here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraxinus

Soooo- Irish ash- is the same as the ash you'll find in Poland/Germany/Sweden and elsewhere in Europe- only there will be very minor variations, often not detectable even genetically, associated with how they have adapted to a particular environment and used natural selection towards this end over a period of time.

Oldtree

The below link put it very well with regard to native Tree planting and gives an outline of the notion of Local Provenance.

http://www.nativetrees.org.uk/native-trees/planting_natve_trees_for_bio_diversity.php

A definitive map of the UK as to how LP is divided up around the country for seed collection, map on page 2 here

http://www.forestry.gov.uk/pdf/seedsourcefcfc151.pdf/$FILE/seedsourcefcfc151.pdf

Some guidlines already used in the collection of wild plants that sound like a very good idea to start with (but based on UK FC rules):

http://www.wildflowers.ie/technical_wild_flower/conservation/floralocale/seed_growers_pledge.htm

Provenance is covered here in the Forestry Schemes manual.

http://www.agriculture.gov.ie/media/migration/forestry/grantandpremiumschemes/schemecirculars/ForestrySchemesManual21122011.pdf

From page 5 FC Choosing Provenance in Broadleaved Trees:

For example, a trial in Holstein, Germany, found that two local provenances (sycamore) growing only 50 km apart were dramatically different. This geographically patchy performance may be due to the fact that sycamore is insect-pollinated which will reduce gene flow through pollen transfer relative to wind-pollinated species. Under conditions of lower gene flow there would be greater local adaptation compared with wind-pollinated species such as birch, ash or oak.

also interesting bit on Ash on page 4

http://www.forestry.gov.uk/pdf/fcin082.pdf/$FILE/fcin082.pdf

From what I have read, here in Ireland it seems to be the nearest certified stand means local provenance.

I had understood that the definition of local provenance was less than 20 miles away and of a similar altitude/site.

What I am trying to say is that there is quite a lot of difference between populations of ash on the continent and ash here on this island, and even within the ash population on this island, so repopulating with ash from elsewhere will never have the same local adaption as growing from our own local provenence stock (within 20 miles), which I think is very important point with regard to bio diversity.

Oldtree

intesting article on ash provenance

Oldtree

up to 135 sites in the UK now and a suggestion of a possible link to other plants in the same family acting as vectors:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/earthnews/9670462/Could-the-privet-hedge-be-spreading-ash-dieback.html

and this is a very interesting read too:

http://www.tree-care.info/uktc/archive/2012/msg07131

Oldtree

argument over the distance of wind spread of spores/infection:

maby 20-30km, maby more, maby from europe if wind conditions are right

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2012/nov/12/ash-dieback-ministers-accused

http://www.forestry.gov.uk/forestry/INFD-8ZSS7U

and from:
http://www.theyworkforyou.com/debates/?id=2012-11-12a.49.1&m=40498

Mr Heath said: "Perhaps it would be helpful to the House if I said that as of today the results of that survey show 155 cases of ash dieback caused by Chalara across Great Britain, 15 of these are in nursery stock, 55 are in recently planted sites and 85 are in the wider environment."

Tom Harris said "confirmed in 155 sites, including 15 nurseries that had imported infected plants and 55 plantations that had received young trees. Most worryingly, it has now been found in 65 established woodland sites. Scientific opinion is, sadly, now unanimous: trying to stop the disease is a lost cause."

good pictures of symptoms here:

http://www.ashridgetrees.co.uk/blog/uk-ash-tree-die-back-viewpoint-infection-of-ash-trees-chalara-fraxinea-fungus/2/

Oldtree

Thursday 15 November 2012

Dáil Éireann

Order of Business

12.30 p.m.

Statements on the discovery of Chalara fraxinea (Ash dieback disease) in the context of the importance of the forestry and forestry products industry
[Minister of State for Food Safety, Forestry and Horticulture]

http://www.politicalworld.org/showthread.php?t=13181

I can't wait... :rolleyes:

Oldtree

the below attached map from: http://www.forestry.gov.uk/chalara
showing the 155 infected sites in the UK.

It shows that confirmed infections in the wider environment are mainly along the east coast, mainly to the south east but also on the north east coast, with a serious cluster to the south east where it is only a stones throw to mainland Europe, with other recently planted infected sites being mainly inland.

That would lead me to believe that the infection was coming in a natural way from the east and that the wind blown spores from europe is a logical conclusion. Maby heavy winds (maby any sort of breeze with thermals) in the June to September spore producing time from Europe is enough to get the spores there. Therefore no matter what it is just a matter of time before it arrives here on the wind from either Europe or the UK, if it hasnt already.

The prevaling wind in this area of the UK is from the South West just like here
http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/climate/uk/ee/
so cant rely on that for protection.

UK DEFRA plan of action to slow spread of disease across UK:

http://www.defra.gov.uk/news/2012/11/09/action-ash-tree-disease/

Following an unprecedented effort across Britain to identify areas where Chalara has infected trees in the wider environment, the Government this week brought together scientists, campaigners, charitable groups and woodland agencies to discuss what action should be taken.

I wonder where our unprecedented effort is???
I haven't seen a centralised call for all of us (interested parties amatuer and professional) to contribute to an "effort"! maby the Department in its wisdom knows best :rolleyes:

If anyone from the Department is reading this, step up and ask us for help.
No point in writing to the minister (as a previous poster did) who will reply with "the minister shares your concerns" but knows best so FO.

Oldtree

Oldtree wrote: »

Thursday 15 November 2012
Dáil Éireann
Order of Business
12.30 p.m.
Statements on the discovery of Chalara fraxinea (Ash dieback disease) in the context of the importance of the forestry and forestry products industry
[Minister of State for Food Safety, Forestry and Horticulture]
http://www.politicalworld.org/showthread.php?t=13181
I can't wait... :rolleyes:

Listen to the pearls of wisdom live here:

http://www.oireachtas.ie/ViewDoc.asp?fn=/documents/livewebcast/Web-Live.htm&CatID=83&m=o

Seanad Éireann
Order of Business
12.30 p.m.

Statements on the discovery of Chalara fraxinea (Ash dieback disease) in the context of the importance of the forestry and forestry products industry
[Minister of State for Food Safety, Forestry and Horticulture]

http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=22111&&CatID=60

Oldtree

short summary of speech, my comments in bold:

most likely method of infection is imported plants??

what about wind

cutting of trees then burn????

what about regrow from roots

still quoting areas known to have disease or known to be free of disease to be the guideline???

what about currently unknown areas of infection

extensive survey to happen with inspectors

what about the wider public to help in co-ordinated effort

Poster with winter symptoms to be distributed

will it become a collecters item, stained wood and diamond shaped cankers I think

self sustainability not until 2020, local nurserys collect seed or certified stands, coillte to up production

about time

he mentioned fraxback eu research

http://www.fraxback.eu/

just finished and no mention of the Smartcycler Genie II!

mountainy man

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/poland/9669165/Ash-dieback-the-ruined-Polish-forest-where-deadly-fungus-began.html

Rovi

mountainy man wrote: »

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/poland/9669165/Ash-dieback-the-ruined-Polish-forest-where-deadly-fungus-began.html

That's depressing

Rovi

There's going to be an item about this in tonight's episode of Ear To The Ground, RTE1, at 8:30.

periodictable

mountainy man wrote: »

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/poland/9669165/Ash-dieback-the-ruined-Polish-forest-where-deadly-fungus-began.html

So is it fair to assume tha tthe container loads of ash firewood from Poland have been coming from dead Polish ash forests? If so, it's time heads rolled at the Forest Service, starting with the Chief Inspector, and the Forest Protection head. Of course, that doesn't happen on this little island, but perhaps if the minister had any balls he's send the boys out on inventory for a couple of years.
Through all its various incarnations, the Forest Service built up a great forest base in this state, only to have the main (native) broadleaf sections face the threat of extermination. Hang your head in shame, Seamus Dunne and Gerard Cahalane.

Oldtree

Rovi wrote: »

There's going to be an item about this in tonight's episode of Ear To The Ground, RTE1, at 8:30.

just watched it and I'm gobsmacked:

the minister says (in an agressive manner)
its not here now as we've destroyed it! :eek:

two wheels good

Oldtree wrote: »

just watched it and I'm gobsmacked:

the minister says (in an agressive manner)
its not here now as we've destroyed it! :eek:

He seemed misguided and unconvincing.
His other bons mots: "I'm not a fool" and "I'm from a farming background".

The_Conductor

Oldtree wrote: »

just watched it and I'm gobsmacked:

the minister says (in an agressive manner)
its not here now as we've destroyed it! :eek:

Someone really needs to rebalance that interview with an interview with an Irish plant pathology Prof- Kevin Clancy sounds like a good candidate. How can you make a statement like that?

Oldtree

I'm more convinced that if we want to slow this thing down a complete and outright ban is the only thing that may have some effect, closely followed with the checking of all of our ash stock to get a true picture.

We can't stop the wind from Europe or the UK,
We can't prevent the spread of spores from as yet unknown infected sites here,
We didn't prevent the spread of spores from infected sites here for the last 3 years,
We arn't preventing import of the disease by allowing imports of wood from lands that may be infected but not showing symptoms yet,
We arn't getting everyone involved running all over the place with Smartcycler Genie II,

did I miss anything?
Are they hiding somthing or an agenda or what? (or am I being paranoid??)

periodictable

No you're not being paranoid.
I've been reading that UK scientists believe that spores travel 20-30km at most, but that the real problem is infected planting stock. Ergo, we need to ban all ash transplant imports for starters.
Kevin Clancy would be a great guy to interview-calls it as he sees it.
Who wants to bet the Forest Service inspectorate isn't trying to cover its collective ass?