Medical abortion to be made availible in the North.

Stheno

If a form of contraception is 99% effective then theoretically it fails one in 100 times.

With 1 million women, then that's 10,000 failures if they each use contraception on that failure rate.

Given that with perfect use, that's the failure rate for the likes of depoprovera etc and doesn't consider the likes of the pill, sickness, condoms etc. you pretty quickly can match up the amount of abortions reported as being Irish as a proportion of failed contraceptive uses here?

28064212

Stheno wrote: »

If a form of contraception is 99% effective then theoretically it fails one in 100 times.

That's actually incorrect, and a pretty common misconception. When a rate is quoted for contraception, it's generally "if 100 couples started using this contraception, how many of them would be pregnant at the end of a year". More details here: http://www.contraceptivetechnology.org/table.html

Stheno

28064212 wrote: »

That's actually incorrect, and a pretty common misconception. When a rate is quoted for contraception, it's generally "if 100 couples started using this contraception, how many of them would be pregnant at the end of a year". More details here: http://www.contraceptivetechnology.org/table.html

So the reality is that the failure rate is far higher?

nadey

Awh no I don't agree with abortions it's killing a innocent little baby it's murder the way I see it

Stheno

nadey wrote: »

Awh no I don't agree with abortions it's killing a innocent little baby it's murder the way I see it

That's your view but not that of everyone.

I am a bit weird in that I am pro choice but believe in a limit to the term you can have an abortion.

Given your view though, can I ask if you were raped would you have a child arising from that?

Morag

Stheno wrote: »

I am a bit weird in that I am pro choice but believe in a limit to the term you can have an abortion.

I don't think that is weird, most pro choice people I know think there should be a limit unless there are fetal abnormality.

nadey

Stheno wrote: »

nadey wrote: »

Awh no I don't agree with abortions it's killing a innocent little baby it's murder the way I see it

That's your view but not that of everyone.

I am a bit weird in that I am pro choice but believe in a limit to the term you can have an abortion.

Given your view though, can I ask if you were raped would you have a child arising from that?

No I wasn't thank god but an old friend of mine was when she was 14 by a family member of hers and she fell pregnant

Everyone told her to get rid of it and only 14years old so much wiser than her years she told me It wasn't the babies fault she was raped the baby never asked to be conceived and it was still her baby and two wrongs don't make a right

She went through with the pregnancy but gave the baby up for adoption she turned around such a horrible situation into a blessing for a couple who couldn't have children and she was only 15 when she had the baby if a 14/15 year old can do it why can't other women

Why would a woman be so selfish into killing a baby when you can bless a couple with a gift of a child and mark their life's complete

<snip>

Lingua Franca

nadey wrote: »

She went through with the pregnancy but gave the baby up for adoption she turned around such a horrible situation into a blessing for a couple who couldn't have children and she was only 15 when she had the baby if a 14/15 year old can do it why can't other women

Why would a woman be so selfish into killing a baby when you can bless a couple with a gift of a child and mark their life's complete

Because women aren't incubators, pregnancy takes a heavy toll from the body, giving up a bay means a new set of mental stress issues, because woman can be judged just as harshly for carrying an unwanted baby to term and then giving it up if not more so (stupid slut, can't keep her legs closed, hasn't she heard of contraception, unfit to be a mother, no maternal instinct) and because thanks to the fact that Irish woman can go and get an abortion elsewhere, preventing abortions from taking place in Ireland does not mean a constant of supply of newborns for the childless.

If you think women give their babies up for adoption and just get the warm fuzzies for being so awesome without any accompanying angst, stress or depression then you are sorely misguided, my friend.

<snip>

Have you read a single post in this thread or anything at all about medical (chemically induced) abortions before 9 weeks, which are the very topic of this conversation? It causes a miscarriage at a very early stage. Surgical abortions at a later stage of pregnancy aren't being discussed.

K-9

Extremely sad for the 14 year old as well.

The 14 year old may change her mind and wish to take the child back, given she has the chance.

I'm sure you'd agree with that, the birth mothers rights win after all?

nadey wrote: »

No I wasn't thank god but an old friend of mine was when she was 14 by a family member of hers and she fell pregnant

Everyone told her to get rid of it and only 14years old so much wiser than her years she told me It wasn't the babies fault she was raped the baby never asked to be conceived and it was still her baby and two wrongs don't make a right

She went through with the pregnancy but gave the baby up for adoption she turned around such a horrible situation into a blessing for a couple who couldn't have children and she was only 15 when she had the baby if a 14/15 year old can do it why can't other women

Why would a woman be so selfish into killing a baby when you can bless a couple with a gift of a child and mark their life's complete

Have you seen a video of a baby being aborted they rip the baby apart it's heartbreaking and so evil I don't know how anyone could live with them selfs who could do that to a innocent little baby

nadey

Sex leads to pregnancy birth control fails we all know NOTHING is 100%

You know the consequences of sex and the possibility of a pregnancy

Don't kill a innocent baby for your irresponsibility

Don't have sex if your not ready for children and too selfish to take responsibility for your actions

K-9

nadey wrote: »

Sex leads to pregnancy birth control fails we all know NOTHING is 100%

You know the consequences of sex and the possibility of a pregnancy

Don't kill a innocent baby for your irresponsibility

Don't have sex if your not ready for children and too selfish to take responsibility for your actions

Fine so, so rape cases? They don't agree to sex but pregnancy results.

nadey

Well that child is about 6 or 7 years old now so no and any female can give birth not all are mothers the person who brought up that child from day one fed clothed educated them etc is the mother

the birth mother will just have to wait till the child is a legal adult and for them to make that choice plus isn't there a law or something that once a child is over 6months the birth mother has then lost their rights

Last I heard of her was two years ago she was studying to become a social care worker and was happy and content with her life

nadey

K-9 wrote: »

nadey wrote: »

Sex leads to pregnancy birth control fails we all know NOTHING is 100%

You know the consequences of sex and the possibility of a pregnancy

Don't kill a innocent baby for your irresponsibility

Don't have sex if your not ready for children and too selfish to take responsibility for your actions

Fine so, so rape cases? They don't agree to sex but pregnancy results.

It's the women's baby why should the baby be punished for a crime they didn't commit if any thing kill the scum that rape these poor women not the baby who never asked to be conceived two wrongs don't make a right

I think we should all agree to disagree..... agreed we all have different opinions on what's right and wrong that's your option and this is mine

panda100

Considering that from an Irish context, the largest group of women that travel to UK for abortions are older married women whom already have children, and can't afford to have any more. Are the pro lifers on here,Nadey in particular, really advocating that these couples abstain from sex, and they are being 'selfish' if they choose to have sex in a loving commited relationship?

username123

I am a married woman close to 40 with no children who does not want children. Neither does my husband.

We use contraception, in the knowledge that if it failed and I became pregnant, it would be unwanted and we would seek an abortion. Married women in Ireland cannot give children up for adoption nor do I agree with the barbaric notion of enforced pregnancy.

I find the idea that someone would think a married couple should have a sexless marriage in case contraception fails to be naive in the extreme.

I am delighted at the news about this clinic in NI.

krudler

nadey wrote: »

It's the women's baby why should the baby be punished for a crime they didn't commit if any thing kill the scum that rape these poor women not the baby who never asked to be conceived two wrongs don't make a right

I think we should all agree to disagree..... agreed we all have different opinions on what's right and wrong that's your option and this is mine

so why should a woman be punished for being raped? not all women who are pregnant through rape may seek an abortion, what you're saying is basically tough for those who do want one, the rights of a fetus trump those of a grown woman.

I do love some of the comments on YD facebook page saying these abortion clinics will "wipe out the future generation" as if no more babies will be born or something, abortion is legal in plenty of countries and the birth rate is fine. shockingly, having abortion available to those who want it doesn't mean everyone will avail of it.

Twee.

nadey wrote: »

I think we should all agree to disagree..... agreed we all have different opinions on what's right and wrong that's your option and this is mine

So why not allow abortion then? That way those who don't want it can stay away, and those who would like to avail can do as they please. No abortion for anyone is unfair. If it's allowed, everyone can be satisfied.

I wouldn't know until I'm in the situation, but currently I'd say that I would not have an abortion in the case of accidental pregnancy. But in no way would I ever try stop someone, or discourage a friend from doing it. It's not my decision. I think the clinic is a great asset and will hopefully ease the stress of of having to travel abroad for the procedure for some women. Even though there are conditions that must be met (life must be in danger, 9 weeks pregnant etc), I think it's a step forward.

HeyThereDeliah

Stheno wrote: »

I am a bit weird in that I am pro choice but believe in a limit to the term you can have an abortion.

I'm the very same and I'm ok with nine weeks but not more than that unless there is a medical condition with either mother or baby.

Bookworm85

OK, I dont really have a story to share as such, but I just wanted to share the situation I currently find myself in and how it relates to the abortion debate.

First I would like to make it clear that I am pro-choice. Although I do not personally agree to abortion as a form of birth control, I firmly believe that if a woman decides to take that road I have NO RIGHT to stop her, and I certainly wouldn't think less of any woman who had a termination - whatever her reasons.

At first glance I look like a hale & healthy 27 year old woman. I am not in a relationship/marriage right now and do not have any children. I hope to someday settle down, maybe get married but I absolutely do not want children.

I suffer from the skin condition Psoriasis and the associated illness Psoriatic Arthritis. I have suffered with my skin for over 21 years and my joints have been affected for a little over a year. My skin is horriffic and I am in the 'severe' category, where I do not respond to the front line treatments, and my skin is effected to the extent that it affects my daily life. I am currently being treated for both conditions by using two Disease Modifying Anti-Rheumatic Drugs (DMARDs); These DMARDs are MTX (Methotrexate) and Adalimumab (Humira).

The first drug MTX, has other uses including the treatment of certain cancers and it is also used in abortions. Now the dosage that I take is nowhere near what is needed to treat cancer, nor is it enough to induce and abortion but it is strong enough to have serious side effects on a fetus, particularly in the first few weeks of gestation. It is classed in Category X on this table.

Studies in animals or humans have demonstrated fetal abnormalities and/or there is positive evidence of human fetal risk based on adverse reaction data from investigational or marketing experience, and the risks involved in use of the drug in pregnant women clearly outweigh potential benefits.

Now, while I take this medication I am under strict instructions not to get pregnant (and it looks like I will be taking it for the foreseeable future). I take the contraceptive pill even though I am not sexually active at the moment, but if and when I do have sex I will also ensure that a condom is used. Now the chances of me falling pregnant while going "double dutch" are slim to none. But hey, sh1t happens sometimes and contracteption is never 100% so there is always a chance, however slim, that I could get pregnant.

Now, I'm not sure if the first hypothetical situation below would be sufficient under present legislation to be considered as sufficiently life endangering, but I have had very long chats with my consultants and GP regarding pregnancy and family planning. I have reassured them that I definately do not want children and they have reassured me that they will start weaning me off any meds if I do change my mind. We have also discussed in depth about my options if I was to fall pregnant while I am taking these meds. All consultants and my GP agree that in such circumstances a termination would be the safest option for me and the kinder thing to do for the baby.

If I was to find out tomorrow that I was pregnant, my options are*

A)Stop my medication. - This is absolutely not a choice as far as my consultants and I am concerned. The sudden cessation of medication will cause my skin to flare to such an extent that my skin can no longer perform its most basic functions (i.e to retain moisture, control/moderate body temperature and protect the body from infections/foreign bodies) This happened to me before when I was 14. I had such a bad flare that I had less than 10% 'normal' skin. I spent 5 weeks in hospital where I had to be treated like a burns victim in order to prevent infection. I was in absolute agony and I could not move without my skin tearing and weeping and bleeding. I was hooked up to a drip for fluids as my skin could no longer prevent fluid loss and I was dangerously dehydrated.Treatment also included steroids broad-spectrum anti biotics, anti virals and anti fungals. Now, this scenario puts my life and the life of my hypothetical baby at risk. I could NEVER intentionally put myself through that again! It took me about 18months to recover both physically and emotionally. Imagine what that kind of trauma could do to a developing child in the womb.

B)Continue taking the medication and hope against hope that the fetus develops normally. The chances of this happening are almost non existant. The best I could hope for would be a severely physically deformed baby who will more than likely be born with deformed limbs, organs and a severely retarded nervous system. There is even a strong chance (about 30%) that the child would be born with anencephaly-like deformities such as missing or partial brain, skull and scalp, and partial or missing spinal chord.

Most on the pro-life side would see this as perfectly acceptable "You gave your baby a chance at life", "You did what was best for you and your baby,at least you didn't murder it" and would probably call it a "miracle baby" or something. But, in all honesty - I fail to see anything moral or righteous in deliberatly inflicting such things on a developing fetus. And the quality of 'life' for such a child would be zero, in fact it would probably just "exist".

Now, I understand that in the grand scheme of things my skin condition doesn't even register on the scale of other horrifying and debilitating thing that can affect a person, but this is the situation that I find myself in, so it is the only thing I can draw on personally. I shudder to think that in this day and age that there are people who would rather see me and my doctors poison a child in the womb and cause it horrific and completely disabling deformities, than terminate to ensure my longterm health and ensure that the lifelong suffering of another human being doesn't occur is abhorrent to say the least!!! :mad::mad::mad:

*The list above are the side effects for MTX. Humira is a relatively new drug, it is not yet known for certain what effects (if any) it has on pregnancy, the fetus or any undesirable effects on the development of a baby or later stages of development.

seenitall

^^ Substances that can interfere with the development of the fetus, causing birth defects (another example: thalidomide) are called teratogens. To my mind, one of the scariest words in any language. Derived from the Greek teras, meaning "monster".

On topic, great news.

Lingua Franca

seenitall wrote: »

^^ Substances that can interfere with the development of the fetus, causing birth defects (another example: thalidomide) are called teratogens.

Sorry for going off topic, but it's an interesting wee fact that Thaliomide is back in use again. Apparently it has amazing effects as pain relief for leprosy and for cancer sufferers. I assume every care is taken to ensure that there's little risk of pregnancy.

To my mind, one of the scariest words in any language. Derived from the Greek teras, meaning "monster".

That is pretty bad. The word prion also gives me chills. When people chat about their phobias, well, that's mine.

Stheno

Lingua Franca wrote: »

Sorry for going off topic, but it's an interesting wee fact that Thaliomide is back in use again. Apparently it has amazing effects as pain relief for leprosy and for cancer sufferers. I assume every care is taken to ensure that there's little risk of pregnancy.

Always has been used against leprosy if I recall correctly

You'd hope so, I've had friends on Roaccutane (sp?) for acne, and their doctors were rigid in ensuring they were on birth control.

Ilyana

My sister and I have Spina Bifida Occulta. Neither of us can risk accidentally falling pregnant as, afaik, we would have to take extra folic acid prior to getting pregnant as there is a higher chance of us having babies with Spina Bifida otherwise.

I know that Spina Bifida isn't a life-threatening condition, but neither I (aged 21) nor my 17 year old sister are in any position to raise a perfectly healthy child, never mind a disabled one.

I am responsible with contraception but things can and will go wrong - a condom splitting when you've just started the pill being one of a myriad of examples.

Having an abortion is not a decision to be taken lightly, but it is definitely not a decision to be made by anyone else but me.

IvyTheTerrible

I'm really glad this clinic is opening.

I'm pro-choice. I can't envisage myself having an abortion myself (not ruling it out entirely though, I never know what will happen in the future) but I could not in good conscience make that decision for another woman. And the nearer to home an Irish woman can get it done, the better.

LegacyUser

FairytaleGirl wrote: »

Contraception fails, however careful you are.
I'm amused that someone you deem very irresponsible should be "punished" by being made responsible for a baby. That's good logic
By the way - can't adopt out if you're married. And no, not all married people are in a position to have a child.

I didnt stipulate having a baby as 'a punishment' - carrying it is different to raising it.


If you are so adverse to falling pregnant - 'double up' Implanon\the pill\the injection\the coil\the cap\the patch AND condoms. Take the morning after pill within 72hours (in the case of the MAP it prevents implantation so isnt really 'killing off' something live with a heart and brain.)


Although there are obvious exceptions I just dont think in this day and age there should be any cases of unwanted pregnancy. Theres no excuse when theres so much available to avoid it.
It genuinely is down to responsibility. It would be like trying to undo permanent damage to youself in an accident caused solely because you didnt wear a seatbelt. Or killing a pedestrian because you wernt paying attention- it cant be undone.

If something you do carelessly creates a life you shouldnt get to terminate the life to make yours easier.[/QUOTE]

I was like you, I really was. Until I found out I was pregnant in college. And I had an abortion at 8 weeks. And the guilt KILLED me. It honestly has. But, as much as I hate my decision, I stand by it because I'm still learning to take care of myself, I'm no longer with the father etc, and it's just not a situation I would feel comfortable bringing a baby into. And the only other alternative would be to drop out of college and move home to my parents, to an area where there are very very few jobs, so i would probably end up on social welfare, barely able to take care of my baby. I don't like what I did, but I WILL NOT bring a child into a situation unless it is suitable to meet every want and need of that child.

Rodin

Ilyana wrote: »

My sister and I have Spina Bifida Occulta. Neither of us can risk accidentally falling pregnant as, afaik, we would have to take extra folic acid prior to getting pregnant as there is a higher chance of us having babies with Spina Bifida otherwise.

I know that Spina Bifida isn't a life-threatening condition, but neither I (aged 21) nor my 17 year old sister are in any position to raise a perfectly healthy child, never mind a disabled one.

I am responsible with contraception but things can and will go wrong - a condom splitting when you've just started the pill being one of a myriad of examples.

Having an abortion is not a decision to be taken lightly, but it is definitely not a decision to be made by anyone else but me.

I would imagine that some pregnant women would abort their baby if diagnosed with Spina Bifida. They do it for Down's syndrome. Shocking stuff. I'm totally against it.