Medical abortion to be made availible in the North.

Morag

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/1010/breaking57.html



Look like they got the go ahead to provide this service and they will be accepting clients from the Republic.

The first sexual and reproductive health centre to offer abortion services on the island of Ireland will open in Belfast next Thursday.

Marie Stopes Northern Ireland, based in purpose-built city centre premises on Great Victoria Street, will offer contraceptive options, HIV testing, STI testing and treatment, ultrasound scanning, and medical abortion up to nine weeks gestation.

Anyone over the age of 16 can access the centre, including people from the Republic, and services are available by appointment only. Marie Stopes International, which is a not-for-profit organisation, is the UK’s leading provider of sexual and reproductive healthcare services. It has been established for over 30 years, and works in 42 countries around the world.

It will be medical only which is the abortion pill and will not be for women who are beyond 9 weeks.

Following a consultation with the client, and a scan to confirm the existence of the pregnancy, the length of gestation, and any possible complications, two doctors will assess whether she is eligible for a termination. The cost for an early medical abortion - which is a non-surgical procedure - excluding the consultation fee, is £350.

The_Minister

£350 + consultation fee + bus/train to Belfast - I think the ladies of Ireland will stick to the MAP for a while yet when possible.

Morag

The_Minister wrote: »

£350 + consultation fee + bus/train to Belfast - I think the ladies of Ireland will stick to the MAP for a while yet when possible.

It's not the MAP.
It is what to seek out if the MAP fails, or you didn't know you were pregnant until you missed your period.

WesternNight

I was glad to hear this news. I just hope that it's not used as yet another reason to delay (even further) legislation in the Republic.

jam_mac_jam

This is brilliant news. It will make it much easier if you need it then having to travel overseas. I think people have enough to worry about at that time then having to take a plane or boat, will make it much better.

Das Kitty

Brilliant news.

Great to see Irish women won't need to go through an invasive procedure any more if they know early enough.

Lingua Franca

I'm so glad to see this. Surprised! but happy.

Stheno

Glad too, very surprised to see it introduced.

I'd hope it would give our government a prod in the right direction.

Truley

Fantastic news. Will take away unnecessary stress (and risk) from women having to travel abroad.

eviltwin

This is just brilliant. Its a shame the limit is only 9 weeks, I hope that it doesn't result in some women rushing into a decision they later regret but its fantastic women won't have to go through the trauma of going overseas. Hopefully in time the limit is relaxed.

Annabella1

I can see half a dozen of these in Newry soon as I'm sure the uptake will be high.
It's only a matter of time before surgical abortions will be performed..

LittleBook

eviltwin wrote: »

This is just brilliant. Its a shame the limit is only 9 weeks, I hope that it doesn't result in some women rushing into a decision they later regret but its fantastic women won't have to go through the trauma of going overseas. Hopefully in time the limit is relaxed.

The limits are the legal limits for abortion in Northern Ireland.

The 1967 [UK] Abortion Act does not extend to Northern Ireland. In the north abortions can only be carried out in cases where the life of the pregnant woman is at immediate risk or if there is a long term or permanent risk to her physical or mental health. Within the current legal framework, the provision of early medical abortion is only available.

It's still good news but the limits won't change.

Princess Peach

While it is good news, I hope the services will soon be available at more than the 1 clinic. With such a short time frame I hope clients don't have long to wait for an appointment.

seamus

It would be worth the pro-choice campaigners down south speaking to Marie Stopes and asking them to collect detailed statistics on the residency of women who attend the clinic.

Nothing like some cold hard figures to paint the reality to the government.

Morag

They collate those stats as a mater of course, same as they do at their clinics in the UK,
but that will be information given by women, if they choose to give an address in NI then that is what is recorded.

krudler

seamus wrote: »

It would be worth the pro-choice campaigners down south speaking to Marie Stopes and asking them to collect detailed statistics on the residency of women who attend the clinic.

Nothing like some cold hard figures to paint the reality to the government.

Isnt it 12 women a day on average that go to the UK for abortions? The government know well about it, but wont do anything about it for the fear of risking votes. Irish women have abortions every day, just not in Ireland.

awec

This post has been deleted.

MagicSean

awec wrote: »

Pathetic on behalf of irish politicians.

Hardly surprising. The vast majority of politicians are male. This subject has been made a woman only topic by many pro choice campaigns. Even Boards.ie has relegated all discussion to this forum. With such an adversarial approach to the topic I can't see how it can be expected that male politicians will take notice.

And while this latest development is may be good for women seeking a termination I can see it delaying any progress in Ireland towards proper implementation of the EU rulings in Ireland, perhaps even setting it back a step.

Ickle Magoo

Given it was male politicians blatantly standing in the way of base democracy in order to prevent legislation being enacted based on previous referendum by both male and female voters - I think the whole "it's been made a female issue" is a complete red-herring.

This is the Ladies Lounge - it's being discussed here for obvious reasons. There is no Boards conspiracy to ONLY have discussion here.

Morag

MagicSean wrote: »

Hardly surprising. The vast majority of politicians are male. This subject has been made a woman only topic by many pro choice campaigns. Even Boards.ie has relegated all discussion to this forum. With such an adversarial approach to the topic I can't see how it can be expected that male politicians will take notice.

And while this latest development is may be good for women seeking a termination I can see it delaying any progress in Ireland towards proper implementation of the EU rulings in Ireland, perhaps even setting it back a step.

Well this is being discussed in the atheist forum the link was added to the abortion thread in there last night, so it's not only happening here.

I did try to start a parallel discussion in AH (which would have been a very different discussion) but as I had a thread it was closed as spam :rolleyes:
But there is nothing stopping you starting a thread on this in another forum be it politics, TGC or AH.

I don't see this as being an action which will cause delay, I can see it as being one which will be used to put more pressure on and to get more people out lobbying on this issue.

FairytaleGirl

I know im the stark minority here but I totally disagree with it. If youre not responsible enough to use contraception and fall pregnant tough. Give the baby up for adoption to the thousands of families who cant have their own.

By 9 weeks the `bunch of cells` has fingers,toes hand and feet prints and a nervous system.

This clinic will only encourage reckless sexual behaviour and irresponsibility.

You shouldnt be allowed to abort a baby because its not convieniet to your lifestyle etc. Give it up for adoption/be more responsible wih your contraception.

awec

This post has been deleted.

Morag

FairytaleGirl wrote: »

I know im the stark minority here but I totally disagree with it. If youre not responsible enough to use contraception and fall pregnant tough. Give the baby up for adoption to the thousands of families who cant have their own.

By 9 weeks the `bunch of cells` has fingers,toes hand and feet prints and a nervous system.

This clinic will only encourage reckless sexual behaviour and irresponsibility.

You shouldnt be allowed to abort a baby because its not convieniet to your lifestyle etc. Give it up for adoption/be more responsible wih your contraception.

You are totally entitled to your opinion on it, I just disagree with your stance on this. I wouldn't assume that all the posters here are pro choice, I do have friends who are anti abortion other then in the most dire circumstances.

FairytaleGirl

FairytaleGirl wrote: »

I know im the stark minority here but I totally disagree with it. If youre not responsible enough to use contraception and fall pregnant tough. Give the baby up for adoption to the thousands of families who cant have their own.

By 9 weeks the `bunch of cells` has fingers,toes hand and feet prints and a nervous system.

This clinic will only encourage reckless sexual behaviour and irresponsibility.

You shouldnt be allowed to abort a baby because its not convieniet to your lifestyle etc. Give it up for adoption/be more responsible wih your contraception.

Contraception fails, however careful you are.
I'm amused that someone you deem very irresponsible should be "punished" by being made responsible for a baby. That's good logic
By the way - can't adopt out if you're married. And no, not all married people are in a position to have a child.

meeeeh

seamus wrote: »

It would be worth the pro-choice campaigners down south speaking to Marie Stopes and asking them to collect detailed statistics on the residency of women who attend the clinic.

Nothing like some cold hard figures to paint the reality to the government.

Actually the best statistic is the one which shoves that better availability of abortion does not increase the uptake in general. Where I come from abortion is covered by medical insurance and free (a minister that suggested women should pay for the second abortion, had to pack his bags because of it) but what is more important the number of women having the abortion is falling. (about 20000 in 1981 and about 6000 in 2005, I'm too lazy to look for fresher statistics). Which just proves that the best anti abortion strategy is not making women to jump through hoops to get one but to have good sexual education and easy availability of contraception.

I don't think numbers of women that will take up the option are as important as is the quality and ease of service. But while this is welcome, people that need the surgical procedure still need to travel. And especially women having late abortions for medical reasons are unnecessarily placed into danger. This makes early termination more convenient but it does nothing towards solving the problem in the Republic.

Malari

FairytaleGirl wrote: »

I know im the stark minority here but I totally disagree with it. If youre not responsible enough to use contraception and fall pregnant tough. Give the baby up for adoption to the thousands of families who cant have their own.

By 9 weeks the `bunch of cells` has fingers,toes hand and feet prints and a nervous system.

This clinic will only encourage reckless sexual behaviour and irresponsibility.

You shouldnt be allowed to abort a baby because its not convieniet to your lifestyle etc. Give it up for adoption/be more responsible wih your contraception.

There are women who just don't want to be pregnant, it's not just about not wanting a baby. And contraception failures just happens sometimes through no fault of the user.

I accept you don't think a lifestyle choice is enough of a reason to abort but I disagree with you.

eviltwin

FairytaleGirl wrote: »

I know im the stark minority here but I totally disagree with it. If youre not responsible enough to use contraception and fall pregnant tough. Give the baby up for adoption to the thousands of families who cant have their own.

By 9 weeks the `bunch of cells` has fingers,toes hand and feet prints and a nervous system.

This clinic will only encourage reckless sexual behaviour and irresponsibility.

You shouldnt be allowed to abort a baby because its not convieniet to your lifestyle etc. Give it up for adoption/be more responsible wih your contraception.

Thats's your view on it and you are entitled to it but abortion is just another choice. Women can still choose to keep their babies or put them up for adoption - if they are single. A woman who chooses to have an abortion though should be free to do that without being made to feel bad about it.

meeeeh

FairytaleGirl wrote: »

I know im the stark minority here but I totally disagree with it. If youre not responsible enough to use contraception and fall pregnant tough. Give the baby up for adoption to the thousands of families who cant have their own.

By 9 weeks the `bunch of cells` has fingers,toes hand and feet prints and a nervous system.

This clinic will only encourage reckless sexual behaviour and irresponsibility.

You shouldnt be allowed to abort a baby because its not convieniet to your lifestyle etc. Give it up for adoption/be more responsible wih your contraception.

You can disagree with it if you want to. But unless you succeed in persuading the wast majority of other European countries to adopt your point of view, you are not "saving" little babies, you are just making women who have abortions to suffer unnecessarily even more. But I guess that is punishment for being irresponsible. :rolleyes:

BTW I didn't have an abortion but I did have three misscarriages (all procedures) and they are anything but convenient.

Ickle Magoo

As both a woman who had pregnancies which took a horrendous physical toll on my body, some of which I'll have to live with for the rest of my life and and adoptee, I find the adoption panacea which always gets trotted out in these discussions highlighting its own ignorances/thoughtlessness.

There is no easy fix to unwanted pregnancies - they will happen and women will deal with them regardless of the legislation this little island chooses to enact, especially when there's a country so close and handy to ship the issue off too.

mike65

I was listening to the director of the clinic and she said the is no time limit, only medical definitions to decide if an abortion is justified.

As for the clinic and its effect in the Republic, almost certainly if this gets the go-ahead it will be considered a convenient "all Ireland" facility by the State and so no need to change anything here.

Morag

mike65 wrote: »

I was listening to the director of the clinic and she said the is no time limit, only medical definitions to decide on whether an abortion is justified.

As for the clinic and its effect in the Republic, almost certainly if this gets the go-ahead it will be considered a convenient "all Ireland" facility by the State and so no need to change anything here.

The clinic won't be doing surgical abortions and it won't deal with terminations for medical reasons, so it's not a fix and it's not a reason to stop lobbying, if anything it's broken that daft notion that there is no abortion in the Island of Ireland completely.

FairytaleGirl

Contraception fails, however careful you are.
I'm amused that someone you deem very irresponsible should be "punished" by being made responsible for a baby. That's good logic
By the way - can't adopt out if you're married. And no, not all married people are in a position to have a child.[/Quote]

I didnt stipulate having a baby as 'a punishment' - carrying it is different to raising it.


If you are so adverse to falling pregnant - 'double up' Implanon\the pill\the injection\the coil\the cap\the patch AND condoms. Take the morning after pill within 72hours (in the case of the MAP it prevents implantation so isnt really 'killing off' something live with a heart and brain.)


Although there are obvious exceptions I just dont think in this day and age there should be any cases of unwanted pregnancy. Theres no excuse when theres so much available to avoid it.
It genuinely is down to responsibility. It would be like trying to undo permanent damage to youself in an accident caused solely because you didnt wear a seatbelt. Or killing a pedestrian because you wernt paying attention- it cant be undone.

If something you do carelessly creates a life you shouldnt get to terminate the life to make yours easier.

Lingua Franca

FairytaleGirl wrote: »

It would be like trying to undo permanent damage to youself in an accident caused solely because you didnt wear a seatbelt.

...


Yeah, 'cause that would be CRAAAAAAZY.

eviltwin

FairytaleGirl wrote: »

Contraception fails, however careful you are.
I'm amused that someone you deem very irresponsible should be "punished" by being made responsible for a baby. That's good logic
By the way - can't adopt out if you're married. And no, not all married people are in a position to have a child.

I didnt stipulate having a baby as 'a punishment' - carrying it is different to raising it.


If you are so adverse to falling pregnant - 'double up' Implanon\the pill\the injection\the coil\the cap\the patch AND condoms. Take the morning after pill within 72hours (in the case of the MAP it prevents implantation so isnt really 'killing off' something live with a heart and brain.)


Although there are obvious exceptions I just dont think in this day and age there should be any cases of unwanted pregnancy. Theres no excuse when theres so much available to avoid it.
It genuinely is down to responsibility. It would be like trying to undo permanent damage to youself in an accident caused solely because you didnt wear a seatbelt. Or killing a pedestrian because you wernt paying attention- it cant be undone.

If something you do carelessly creates a life you shouldnt get to terminate the life to make yours easier.[/QUOTE]

Ironic that you would trust someone with a child when they can't be trusted to take contraception :rolleyes:

eviltwin

eviltwin wrote: »

Ironic that you would trust someone with a child when they can't be trusted to take contraception :rolleyes:

To be fair she's not advocating forcing pregnant women to raise the child, but to give the child up for adoption. Not that I agree with this stance, but that's the finer detail.

WesternNight

FairytaleGirl wrote: »

I didnt stipulate having a baby as 'a punishment' - carrying it is different to raising it.


If you are so adverse to falling pregnant - 'double up' Implanon\the pill\the injection\the coil\the cap\the patch AND condoms. Take the morning after pill within 72hours (in the case of the MAP it prevents implantation so isnt really 'killing off' something live with a heart and brain.)


Although there are obvious exceptions I just dont think in this day and age there should be any cases of unwanted pregnancy. Theres no excuse when theres so much available to avoid it.
It genuinely is down to responsibility. It would be like trying to undo permanent damage to youself in an accident caused solely because you didnt wear a seatbelt. Or killing a pedestrian because you wernt paying attention- it cant be undone.

If something you do carelessly creates a life you shouldnt get to terminate the life to make yours easier.

I completely agree that there shouldn't be any cases of unwanted pregnancy. Everyone should do everything they can to be in control of their own bodies and their own reproductive health. Nothing should malfunction, or break, or fail to work. No-one should be raped, or drugged, or unable make responsible decisions. Sadly, that's not the reality. Sometimes things just don't go to plan.

This isn't about unwanted pregnancies, as such, though. Marie Stopes offers medical abortions to women whose pregnancies either cause them immediate risk, or if there's a long-term/serious/permanent risk to either their physical or mental well-being. It's not a case of just waking up one day and deciding you can't be bothered and heading up North for the 'easy way out'.

eviltwin

Deleted User wrote: »

To be fair she's not advocating forcing pregnant women to raise the child, but to give the child up for adoption. Not that I agree with this stance, but that's the finer detail.

That's not a solution though. Adoption is always put out there like a one size fits all solution to an unwanted pregnancy.

Ickle Magoo

While completely ignoring the fact that going to term is the complete opposite of a solution to an unwanted/untenable pregnancy.

meeeeh

FairytaleGirl wrote: »

I didnt stipulate having a baby as 'a punishment' - carrying it is different to raising it.


If you are so adverse to falling pregnant - 'double up' Implanon\the pill\the injection\the coil\the cap\the patch AND condoms. Take the morning after pill within 72hours (in the case of the MAP it prevents implantation so isnt really 'killing off' something live with a heart and brain.)


Although there are obvious exceptions I just dont think in this day and age there should be any cases of unwanted pregnancy. Theres no excuse when theres so much available to avoid it.
It genuinely is down to responsibility. It would be like trying to undo permanent damage to youself in an accident caused solely because you didnt wear a seatbelt. Or killing a pedestrian because you wernt paying attention- it cant be undone.

If something you do carelessly creates a life you shouldnt get to terminate the life to make yours easier.

Your nickname certainly is appropriate. Nothing is as black or white as you imagine it to be in your little world.

In general I don't like to contribute to abortion threads because very few opinions change and in the end I just end up being frustrated with stupidity of some arguments. It is valid not to agree with abortion on moral grounds, I disagree with it but I can tolerate it. However I really dislike judgmental pro life arguments. You conveniently ignore all the people that don't realize they are pregnant (lack of education has a lot to do with it), rape victims or abortions for medical reasons... I bet it's great fun to go through pregnancy knowing that your child won't survive outside womb. But again it's probably woman's fault because she didn't eat enough yogurt or had a glass of wine once. It is more like somebody preaching from their high horse and not showing any empathy or understanding of a problem.

MagicSean

Sharrow wrote: »

Well this is being discussed in the atheist forum the link was added to the abortion thread in there last night, so it's not only happening here.

I did try to start a parallel discussion in AH (which would have been a very different discussion) but as I had a thread it was closed as spam :rolleyes:
But there is nothing stopping you starting a thread on this in another forum be it politics, TGC or AH.

I don't see this as being an action which will cause delay, I can see it as being one which will be used to put more pressure on and to get more people out lobbying on this issue.

No. AH mods are sending people here.

I see this issue as one which could actually open the door for a reversal of the european rulings. The issue of traveling is no longer an issue. And if the NI clinics begin surgical procedures I see any chance of proper legislation in Ireland going out the window.

awec wrote: »

Women are free to petition their TD on the issue, as are men.

Whether a TD is male or female should be irrelevant.

Should be but isn't.

Morag

MagicSean wrote: »

I see this issue as one which could actually open the door for a reversal of the european rulings. The issue of traveling is no longer an issue. And if the NI clinics begin surgical procedures I see any chance of proper legislation in Ireland going out the window.

Currently the HSE does send women to the UK and pays for the procedures which they are entitled to have here. This causes distress and more added expense when those procedures should be done here.

Ilyana

While I, as a young woman with no interest in having children yet, welcome this new clinic, I am concerned about the diminishing likelihood of abortion being legislated on in the Republic.

Yeah, if I found myself pregnant tomorrow (the circumstances are regardless - I won't want the baby), I'd be off to the North at the next available opportunity. Taking a pill without having to get on a plane is a far more savoury option than having to fly to the UK to have a surgical procedure.

But this will definitely put the skids on an abortion referendum here; the government will see the issue as less urgent, and their reticent to sort the issue out once and for all will only increase. There will be even less incentive to heed EU directives when they can say that abortion, in some form or other, is available on this island.

The EU told Ireland that it must provide far more coherent criteria for abortion 'approval' in this country; hence the need for a referendum. While this clinic will definitely be of benefit to women who are in a position to get there before the 9 week cut off; it is still of little use to many more women who still have to undergo the stress of travelling for an abortion.

Morag

I think they are seeing it as less urgent already.
It was said that legislation was needed asap back in January and now it's being pushed back further and further with waiting for the expert group.
I think the government got scared when the pro life lobby started up.
Which makes it even more important for people who are pro choice to take the time to contact thier TDs and tell them they are pro choice and want the legislation put in place. We have to give them the mandate.

Also we don't need a referendum we had one already on this, they just need to legislate.

MagicSean

Sharrow wrote: »

Currently the HSE does send women to the UK and pays for the procedures which they are entitled to have here. This causes distress and more added expense when those procedures should be done here.

Yes but if the journey is only as far as Newry then what distress or expense can be claimed? Fpr a person in Mayo is it not as easy to travel to Newry as it is to Dublin. The effective outsourcing of the medical procedure provision would also likely be a money saver to the government.

Ilyana

Sharrow wrote: »

I think they are seeing it as less urgent already.
It was said that legislation was needed asap back in January and now it's being pushed back further and further with waiting for the expert group.
I think the government got scared when the pro life lobby started up.
Which makes it even more important for people who are pro choice to take the time to contact thier TDs and tell them they are pro choice and want the legislation put in place. We have to give them the mandate.

Also we don't need a referendum we had one already on this, they just need to legislate.

I'm concerned that some people who would like to see abortion become legal here might be less vocal if it's slightly more accessible with this clinic. On the other hand, anti-abortion people are going to be even more up in arms, if that were possible.

Yeah you're right about the referendum thing, I got a bit mixed up. Although I feel another referendum could be required in the future when people begin to push for a lower test than 'where there is a real and substantial risk to the life of the mother' in order to have an abortion in the Republic.

Morag

For 'abortion on demand' as it gets put we would need most likely another referendum.
To Legislate for the X case ruling, which is the current situation we just need to lobby.

I understand your concerns but I think that how vocal and organised the other side has been has galvanized many pro choice people to become activists on this issue.

Morag

MagicSean wrote: »

Yes but if the journey is only as far as Newry then what distress or expense can be claimed? Fpr a person in Mayo is it not as easy to travel to Newry as it is to Dublin. The effective outsourcing of the medical procedure provision would also likely be a money saver to the government.

Yes but while the opening of the clinic is a start, it's limited services, in a limited time frame and under very limited legal conditions. There will still be women form NI and Ireland who have to still travel.

28064212

MagicSean wrote: »

I see this issue as one which could actually open the door for a reversal of the european rulings. The issue of traveling is no longer an issue.

Travelling was never an issue in the european ruling (assuming you're talking about ABC v Ireland). The issue is that there is no way for a woman to establish whether she has the right to an abortion in the Republic of Ireland. Whether there's a thousand clinics or none at all in NI, the UK, or Europe, it has no affect on the ruling.

Which isn't to say that the government won't kick the can down the road anyway (what's another few years on top of the 20 already passed?). But the opening of an abortion clinic in NI doesn't change the legal mess whatsoever

zef

Marie Stopes sent love poems to Adolf Hitler in August 1939, advocated compulsory sterilisation for the ‘unfit’, and cut her own son out of her will because he married a girl who wore glasses. Lovely woman i'm sure.

I believe it's a womans own choice, because ultimately she has to live with the decision. I can certainly see the debate heating up on the issue with a clinic opening so close to the Republic.

Ilyana

Sharrow wrote: »

I understand your concerns but I think that how vocal and organised the other side has been has galvanized many pro choice people to become activists on this issue.

I hope you're right. However, I'd imagine that some women my age (late teens to early twenties) might be less inclined to actively petition or protest for abortion here unless they have a strong view on the matter.

Perhaps I'm wrong, I'm just going on conjecture here. But I can't see many of my friends attending a pro-choice rally or anything if they know they now can just 'pop up North' for a pill if they accidentally got pregnant. I've known people to drive up there just to buy drink; it's not inconvenient for people. I'd do the same if it happened to me.

x Purple Pawprints x

I'm glad to see there's another option available to people here now rather than having to try and travel to England for an invasive surgical procedure. Myself and my boyfriend are very careful with contraception but it's a comfort to know that if it did fail that the clinic is there. I do want children but there is no way in hell either of us could support a child financially at this point in time. I know people say adoption is a solution too but I don't know if I could carry a child for 9 months knowing that I'd have to give it up after the birth.