Medical abortion to be made availible in the North.

FairytaleGirl

Contraception fails, however careful you are.
I'm amused that someone you deem very irresponsible should be "punished" by being made responsible for a baby. That's good logic
By the way - can't adopt out if you're married. And no, not all married people are in a position to have a child.[/Quote]

I didnt stipulate having a baby as 'a punishment' - carrying it is different to raising it.


If you are so adverse to falling pregnant - 'double up' Implanon\the pill\the injection\the coil\the cap\the patch AND condoms. Take the morning after pill within 72hours (in the case of the MAP it prevents implantation so isnt really 'killing off' something live with a heart and brain.)


Although there are obvious exceptions I just dont think in this day and age there should be any cases of unwanted pregnancy. Theres no excuse when theres so much available to avoid it.
It genuinely is down to responsibility. It would be like trying to undo permanent damage to youself in an accident caused solely because you didnt wear a seatbelt. Or killing a pedestrian because you wernt paying attention- it cant be undone.

If something you do carelessly creates a life you shouldnt get to terminate the life to make yours easier.

Lingua Franca

FairytaleGirl wrote: »

It would be like trying to undo permanent damage to youself in an accident caused solely because you didnt wear a seatbelt.

...


Yeah, 'cause that would be CRAAAAAAZY.

eviltwin

FairytaleGirl wrote: »

Contraception fails, however careful you are.
I'm amused that someone you deem very irresponsible should be "punished" by being made responsible for a baby. That's good logic
By the way - can't adopt out if you're married. And no, not all married people are in a position to have a child.

I didnt stipulate having a baby as 'a punishment' - carrying it is different to raising it.


If you are so adverse to falling pregnant - 'double up' Implanon\the pill\the injection\the coil\the cap\the patch AND condoms. Take the morning after pill within 72hours (in the case of the MAP it prevents implantation so isnt really 'killing off' something live with a heart and brain.)


Although there are obvious exceptions I just dont think in this day and age there should be any cases of unwanted pregnancy. Theres no excuse when theres so much available to avoid it.
It genuinely is down to responsibility. It would be like trying to undo permanent damage to youself in an accident caused solely because you didnt wear a seatbelt. Or killing a pedestrian because you wernt paying attention- it cant be undone.

If something you do carelessly creates a life you shouldnt get to terminate the life to make yours easier.[/QUOTE]

Ironic that you would trust someone with a child when they can't be trusted to take contraception :rolleyes:

eviltwin

eviltwin wrote: »

Ironic that you would trust someone with a child when they can't be trusted to take contraception :rolleyes:

To be fair she's not advocating forcing pregnant women to raise the child, but to give the child up for adoption. Not that I agree with this stance, but that's the finer detail.

WesternNight

FairytaleGirl wrote: »

I didnt stipulate having a baby as 'a punishment' - carrying it is different to raising it.


If you are so adverse to falling pregnant - 'double up' Implanon\the pill\the injection\the coil\the cap\the patch AND condoms. Take the morning after pill within 72hours (in the case of the MAP it prevents implantation so isnt really 'killing off' something live with a heart and brain.)


Although there are obvious exceptions I just dont think in this day and age there should be any cases of unwanted pregnancy. Theres no excuse when theres so much available to avoid it.
It genuinely is down to responsibility. It would be like trying to undo permanent damage to youself in an accident caused solely because you didnt wear a seatbelt. Or killing a pedestrian because you wernt paying attention- it cant be undone.

If something you do carelessly creates a life you shouldnt get to terminate the life to make yours easier.

I completely agree that there shouldn't be any cases of unwanted pregnancy. Everyone should do everything they can to be in control of their own bodies and their own reproductive health. Nothing should malfunction, or break, or fail to work. No-one should be raped, or drugged, or unable make responsible decisions. Sadly, that's not the reality. Sometimes things just don't go to plan.

This isn't about unwanted pregnancies, as such, though. Marie Stopes offers medical abortions to women whose pregnancies either cause them immediate risk, or if there's a long-term/serious/permanent risk to either their physical or mental well-being. It's not a case of just waking up one day and deciding you can't be bothered and heading up North for the 'easy way out'.

eviltwin

Deleted User wrote: »

To be fair she's not advocating forcing pregnant women to raise the child, but to give the child up for adoption. Not that I agree with this stance, but that's the finer detail.

That's not a solution though. Adoption is always put out there like a one size fits all solution to an unwanted pregnancy.

Ickle Magoo

While completely ignoring the fact that going to term is the complete opposite of a solution to an unwanted/untenable pregnancy.

meeeeh

FairytaleGirl wrote: »

I didnt stipulate having a baby as 'a punishment' - carrying it is different to raising it.


If you are so adverse to falling pregnant - 'double up' Implanon\the pill\the injection\the coil\the cap\the patch AND condoms. Take the morning after pill within 72hours (in the case of the MAP it prevents implantation so isnt really 'killing off' something live with a heart and brain.)


Although there are obvious exceptions I just dont think in this day and age there should be any cases of unwanted pregnancy. Theres no excuse when theres so much available to avoid it.
It genuinely is down to responsibility. It would be like trying to undo permanent damage to youself in an accident caused solely because you didnt wear a seatbelt. Or killing a pedestrian because you wernt paying attention- it cant be undone.

If something you do carelessly creates a life you shouldnt get to terminate the life to make yours easier.

Your nickname certainly is appropriate. Nothing is as black or white as you imagine it to be in your little world.

In general I don't like to contribute to abortion threads because very few opinions change and in the end I just end up being frustrated with stupidity of some arguments. It is valid not to agree with abortion on moral grounds, I disagree with it but I can tolerate it. However I really dislike judgmental pro life arguments. You conveniently ignore all the people that don't realize they are pregnant (lack of education has a lot to do with it), rape victims or abortions for medical reasons... I bet it's great fun to go through pregnancy knowing that your child won't survive outside womb. But again it's probably woman's fault because she didn't eat enough yogurt or had a glass of wine once. It is more like somebody preaching from their high horse and not showing any empathy or understanding of a problem.

MagicSean

Sharrow wrote: »

Well this is being discussed in the atheist forum the link was added to the abortion thread in there last night, so it's not only happening here.

I did try to start a parallel discussion in AH (which would have been a very different discussion) but as I had a thread it was closed as spam :rolleyes:
But there is nothing stopping you starting a thread on this in another forum be it politics, TGC or AH.

I don't see this as being an action which will cause delay, I can see it as being one which will be used to put more pressure on and to get more people out lobbying on this issue.

No. AH mods are sending people here.

I see this issue as one which could actually open the door for a reversal of the european rulings. The issue of traveling is no longer an issue. And if the NI clinics begin surgical procedures I see any chance of proper legislation in Ireland going out the window.

awec wrote: »

Women are free to petition their TD on the issue, as are men.

Whether a TD is male or female should be irrelevant.

Should be but isn't.

Morag

MagicSean wrote: »

I see this issue as one which could actually open the door for a reversal of the european rulings. The issue of traveling is no longer an issue. And if the NI clinics begin surgical procedures I see any chance of proper legislation in Ireland going out the window.

Currently the HSE does send women to the UK and pays for the procedures which they are entitled to have here. This causes distress and more added expense when those procedures should be done here.

Ilyana

While I, as a young woman with no interest in having children yet, welcome this new clinic, I am concerned about the diminishing likelihood of abortion being legislated on in the Republic.

Yeah, if I found myself pregnant tomorrow (the circumstances are regardless - I won't want the baby), I'd be off to the North at the next available opportunity. Taking a pill without having to get on a plane is a far more savoury option than having to fly to the UK to have a surgical procedure.

But this will definitely put the skids on an abortion referendum here; the government will see the issue as less urgent, and their reticent to sort the issue out once and for all will only increase. There will be even less incentive to heed EU directives when they can say that abortion, in some form or other, is available on this island.

The EU told Ireland that it must provide far more coherent criteria for abortion 'approval' in this country; hence the need for a referendum. While this clinic will definitely be of benefit to women who are in a position to get there before the 9 week cut off; it is still of little use to many more women who still have to undergo the stress of travelling for an abortion.

Morag

I think they are seeing it as less urgent already.
It was said that legislation was needed asap back in January and now it's being pushed back further and further with waiting for the expert group.
I think the government got scared when the pro life lobby started up.
Which makes it even more important for people who are pro choice to take the time to contact thier TDs and tell them they are pro choice and want the legislation put in place. We have to give them the mandate.

Also we don't need a referendum we had one already on this, they just need to legislate.

MagicSean

Sharrow wrote: »

Currently the HSE does send women to the UK and pays for the procedures which they are entitled to have here. This causes distress and more added expense when those procedures should be done here.

Yes but if the journey is only as far as Newry then what distress or expense can be claimed? Fpr a person in Mayo is it not as easy to travel to Newry as it is to Dublin. The effective outsourcing of the medical procedure provision would also likely be a money saver to the government.

Ilyana

Sharrow wrote: »

I think they are seeing it as less urgent already.
It was said that legislation was needed asap back in January and now it's being pushed back further and further with waiting for the expert group.
I think the government got scared when the pro life lobby started up.
Which makes it even more important for people who are pro choice to take the time to contact thier TDs and tell them they are pro choice and want the legislation put in place. We have to give them the mandate.

Also we don't need a referendum we had one already on this, they just need to legislate.

I'm concerned that some people who would like to see abortion become legal here might be less vocal if it's slightly more accessible with this clinic. On the other hand, anti-abortion people are going to be even more up in arms, if that were possible.

Yeah you're right about the referendum thing, I got a bit mixed up. Although I feel another referendum could be required in the future when people begin to push for a lower test than 'where there is a real and substantial risk to the life of the mother' in order to have an abortion in the Republic.

Morag

For 'abortion on demand' as it gets put we would need most likely another referendum.
To Legislate for the X case ruling, which is the current situation we just need to lobby.

I understand your concerns but I think that how vocal and organised the other side has been has galvanized many pro choice people to become activists on this issue.

Morag

MagicSean wrote: »

Yes but if the journey is only as far as Newry then what distress or expense can be claimed? Fpr a person in Mayo is it not as easy to travel to Newry as it is to Dublin. The effective outsourcing of the medical procedure provision would also likely be a money saver to the government.

Yes but while the opening of the clinic is a start, it's limited services, in a limited time frame and under very limited legal conditions. There will still be women form NI and Ireland who have to still travel.

28064212

MagicSean wrote: »

I see this issue as one which could actually open the door for a reversal of the european rulings. The issue of traveling is no longer an issue.

Travelling was never an issue in the european ruling (assuming you're talking about ABC v Ireland). The issue is that there is no way for a woman to establish whether she has the right to an abortion in the Republic of Ireland. Whether there's a thousand clinics or none at all in NI, the UK, or Europe, it has no affect on the ruling.

Which isn't to say that the government won't kick the can down the road anyway (what's another few years on top of the 20 already passed?). But the opening of an abortion clinic in NI doesn't change the legal mess whatsoever

zef

Marie Stopes sent love poems to Adolf Hitler in August 1939, advocated compulsory sterilisation for the ‘unfit’, and cut her own son out of her will because he married a girl who wore glasses. Lovely woman i'm sure.

I believe it's a womans own choice, because ultimately she has to live with the decision. I can certainly see the debate heating up on the issue with a clinic opening so close to the Republic.

Ilyana

Sharrow wrote: »

I understand your concerns but I think that how vocal and organised the other side has been has galvanized many pro choice people to become activists on this issue.

I hope you're right. However, I'd imagine that some women my age (late teens to early twenties) might be less inclined to actively petition or protest for abortion here unless they have a strong view on the matter.

Perhaps I'm wrong, I'm just going on conjecture here. But I can't see many of my friends attending a pro-choice rally or anything if they know they now can just 'pop up North' for a pill if they accidentally got pregnant. I've known people to drive up there just to buy drink; it's not inconvenient for people. I'd do the same if it happened to me.

x Purple Pawprints x

I'm glad to see there's another option available to people here now rather than having to try and travel to England for an invasive surgical procedure. Myself and my boyfriend are very careful with contraception but it's a comfort to know that if it did fail that the clinic is there. I do want children but there is no way in hell either of us could support a child financially at this point in time. I know people say adoption is a solution too but I don't know if I could carry a child for 9 months knowing that I'd have to give it up after the birth.

meeeeh

I doubt much will be solved regarding the abortion in the mandate of this government. They are too afraid to rock the boat with non-economy issues to actually do something. Labour wouldn't want new election just now, considering their ratings losses.

krudler

FairytaleGirl wrote: »

I know im the stark minority here but I totally disagree with it. If youre not responsible enough to use contraception and fall pregnant tough. Give the baby up for adoption to the thousands of families who cant have their own.

By 9 weeks the `bunch of cells` has fingers,toes hand and feet prints and a nervous system.

This clinic will only encourage reckless sexual behaviour and irresponsibility.

You shouldnt be allowed to abort a baby because its not convieniet to your lifestyle etc. Give it up for adoption/be more responsible wih your contraception.

So you'd happily go through a 9 month pregnancy only to give the baby away? Pregnancy isnt a walk in the park in any regard, women can be changed forever by it.

x Purple Pawprints x

krudler wrote: »

So you'd happily go through a 9 month pregnancy only to give the baby away? Pregnancy isnt a walk in the park in any regard, women can be changed forever by it.

That's exactly how I'd feel. If I did happen to get pregnant, I know in my heart that I couldn't provide for a child at the moment but I also know that I couldn't carry a child for 9 months knowing I was giving the child up after the birth.

WindSock

Cross Border Abortions, has a nice ring to it.

Thankfully many women don't have the added burden of leaving the island anymore, costing time and money which raises eyebrows when they need to have a discrete procedure that is of no one elses business.

Wonder how come it took so long to get into NI?

hollypink

Heard this on todayfm news at lunchtime:

http://www.todayfm.com/TodayFMNews/Latest-News.aspx

Doubts cast on whether abortion clinic will open in Belfast next week The Pro Life Campaign says its doubtful that a clinic offering medical abortions will open as planned in Belfast next week. Marie Stopes International says its new centre on Great Victoria Street will be open to women over the age of 16, including those who travel from the republic. Women who attend will have a consultation and a scan before two doctors assess whether they're eligible for an early medical abortion, up to 9 weeks into their pregnancy. However legal advisor with the Irish Pro Life Campaign Caroline Simons says she doesn't believe the people of Northern Ireland will allow it to happen.

Do you think the opening can/will be stopped?

eviltwin

hollypink wrote: »

Heard this on todayfm news at lunchtime:

http://www.todayfm.com/TodayFMNews/Latest-News.aspx



Do you think the opening can/will be stopped?

I'd say this was one of the reasons its only being announced now so close to its opening. I imagine it will have protests but seeing as its going to be your bog standard clinic as well I don't see how they can stop it. Legally they have no basis do they?

K-9

AFAIK Abortion rules are stricter in NI than the UK but if it complies with the law it shouldn't be stopped. The DUP and other strong Unionist parties would have a problem with it I'd say, I'd be surprised if there wasn't strong protests about it.

x Purple Pawprints x

I agree with eviltwin, I think it's why the announcement was left until so close to the opening. Can they really prevent the opening though?

Das Kitty

I just hope there's no violence over the opening.

Statements like that from the Pro Life Campaign get me worried that there might be an element of that.

FairytaleGirl

krudler wrote: »

So you'd happily go through a 9 month pregnancy only to give the baby away? Pregnancy isnt a walk in the park in any regard, women can be changed forever by it.

Women can be changed forever by abortion too.

http://www.ramahinternational.org/post-abortion-syndrome-symptoms.html