School patronage

Hotblack Desiato

Peregrinus, the second half of your post going on about 'lazy, smug atheists' is rather a bit much.

The objection I and many people have isn't the funding of religious schools, it's the discrimination on the basis of religion that takes place legally in employment and enrolment in these schools, and that (explicitly contrary to the Constitution) religious instruction is not, in practice, optional in these schools.

Peregrinus

recedite wrote: »

I don't know what qualifications the teachers in Islamic education need . .

If, as you suggest, it’s to be a state-funded school and their salaries are to be paid by the state, they’ll need the same qualifications as teachers in any state-funded school – a BA or equivalent, a H.Dip in Ed or equivalent, the Ceardteastas and a current registration with the Teaching Council of Ireland.

recedite wrote: »

. . . so I won't comment on that matter.

You already have commented on it! Surely not from a position of ignorance? Say it ain’t so, recidite!

recedite wrote: »

And you gave some examples [of values] yourself that were being applied in a secular Australian school . . .

Yes, fairness, non-violence, the importance of truth, etc. But note that these values can be, and typically are, inculcated in both secular and religious schools.

How about this: there are certain values, attitudes, virtues, what you will, that the state has a legitimate interest in requiring schools to impart. These are what you might call foundational civic virtues, essential for the health of a civilised society and a functioning democracy – a belief in justice, equality, respect for others, tolerance, the peaceful resolution of disputes, respect for law, solidarity, civic engagement, etc.

And the state can decline to fund – and, arguably, in at least some instances, can refuse to allow at all – schools which either fail to inculcate these values, or which actively undermine or denigrate these values.

he schools that get excluded under this rule might be religious schools ( an Islamist Jihadist school, for example, or a Christian Reconstructionist school) or they might be non-religious (say, a school devoted to the principles of National Socialism).

But of course the schools which do inculcate these values may equally be secular or religious. As long as they are inclulcating these principles, and doing the other things required of a school like covering the curriculum, employing qualified teachers, etc, it doesn’t seem to me to be any business of the state’s whether the school has a religious character or not.

If we have a school which inculcates these values, can we deny it public support on the basis that it also inculcates other values – specifically, religious values? That seems to be to be a significant step forward in the role of the state. Once we do this, the state ceases to be concerned with identifying and insisting upon a minimum necessary for communal and civic welfare. Now the state is favouring one set of beliefs over another for reasons which are not the maintenance and health of civil society. Why is it any business of the state to do this? I think we need to build a powerful justification for saying that the state can do this, much less for saying that is should or must. And I don’t see much attempt to do this, beyond the flat assertion that it must be so, and that those who hold a different view are hypocrites.

recedite wrote: »

Not really. Look at it this way; Even if 100% of a population believed in a particular god, it would not be appropriate to teach kids in a State school that the god existed as a matter of fact. The teachers would know it was a matter of belief only, and so they should teach it as such. As they would teach a popular but unproven hypothesis. So they would not be making the kids "conform" to the belief.

The basic ideas such as fairness and respect are not beliefs as such.

The certainly are. Or, at any rate, the claims that they are important, that they must be respected, etc, are certainly beliefs. And if it’s OK, even necessary, for schools to inculcate those beliefs in pupils, then you need to produce an argument as to why it’s undesirable or unacceptable for schools
inculcate other beliefs.

And let me say this. You’re making a distinction between claims of fact, and matters of belief, which I think is oversimplified. Relatively little of the conventional school curriculum consists of matters of fact. The content of a course in natural sciences largely consist of matters of fact, I agree, but the contents of courses in English literature, history, mathematics, etc, etc largely do not. (Yes, it may be amatter of fact that Jane Austen wrote Persuasion or that the Act of Union was passed in 1800, but relatively little classroom time is devoted to established these as facts; the meaning, the importance, the significance, the relevance, the value of these things are what we study, not the factuality of them.)

In other words, to point out that religious claims are mostly not fact-claims does nothing at all to suggest that they have no place in an educational curriculum, or that their inclusion in the curriculum is somehow anomalous and needs special justification. Much of the curriculum consists of examining claims which are not fact-claims. Theological claims fit right in there. Why not?

lazygal

Peregrenius, any chance of describing what a multicultural nativity play is?

recedite

Peregrinus wrote: »

If we have a school which inculcates these values, can we deny it public support on the basis that it also inculcates other values – specifically, religious values?

If they wanted they could teach this other stuff after school hours.
In practice the State cannot afford to fund as many different schools as there are different religious beliefs in every locality.
So when a school is publicly funded, pupils go there initially for education in maths, reading writing etc. The basic common values of respect, fairness, non-violent conflict resolution etc. should also be inculcated as a general school ethos. Any other add-on ethos during compulsory school hours is inappropriate. It is not the business of the State to fund religious indoctrination.

Peregrinus wrote: »

..to point out that religious claims are mostly not fact-claims does nothing at all to suggest that they have no place in an educational curriculum, or that their inclusion in the curriculum is somehow anomalous and needs special justification. Much of the curriculum consists of examining claims which are not fact-claims. Theological claims fit right in there. Why not?

I have no problem with a certain amount of RE being taught in publicly funded schools in this manner. The problem is with the public funding of religious indoctrination, AKA "faith formation". In faith formation, the kinds of claims you referred to are presented as facts, not as claims needing further examination.

Peregrinus

lazygal wrote: »

Peregrenius, any chance of describing what a multicultural nativity play is?

A nativity play incorporating elements from non-Christian cultures.

Peregrinus

ninja900 wrote: »

Peregrinus, the second half of your post going on about 'lazy, smug atheists' is rather a bit much.

The objection I and many people have isn't the funding of religious schools, it's the discrimination on the basis of religion that takes place legally in employment and enrolment in these schools, and that (explicitly contrary to the Constitution) religious instruction is not, in practice, optional in these schools.

I didn't write about "smug, lazy atheists". For the record, I don't consider atheists to be either smug or lazy.

I wrote about a smug, lazy trope. It's a trope advanced by secularists, not athiests, and then not by all secularists; my impression is only by a minority. And, even then, I am not saying that those who advance this trope are smug, lazy people; all I am saying is that they are advancing a smug and lazy trope.

And I can't resist pointing out that the trope in question is that people - including secularist people - who disagree with a certain claim about what secularism requires are practising a hypocrisy. Should I ask why you don't comment when someone says, without bothering to advance an argument, that disagreement with his favoured view is "hypocrisy", but when I suggest that claim is a smug and lazy one you find it "a bit much"?

Bannasidhe

Peregrinus wrote: »

A nativity play incorporating elements from non-Christian cultures.

Why should schools with a multi-cultural population be performing Nativity plays in the first place?

I once witnessed my son take part in a Nativity play in Sheffield where they barely had enough Christians to perform the main roles and the cast consisted mainly of Muslim, Sikh, Hindu, Jewish, atheist etc kids dressed as elves looking very cheesed off about the whole thing. The school could easily have come up with a less specifically one religious belief themed show which included all of the children. It's not like the same school celebrated Diwali even though the majority of children were Hindu!

lazygal

Peregrinus wrote: »

A nativity play incorporating elements from non-Christian cultures.

How is that done when its a Christian story?

Peregrinus

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Why should schools with a multi-cultural population be performing Nativity plays in the first place?

Why are you asking me that question? I haven't suggested that they should do so.

Peregrinus

lazygal wrote: »

How is that done when its a Christian story?

It's not that difficult. There's a long tradition of introducing non-scriptural elements into nativity plays, and it's comparatively easy to pick some of those elements from non-Christian cultures. I don't see why you think this would be difficult. Obviously it depends on what cultural traditions are represented in the school, but Muslims are generally happy to be involved in nativity festivals, what with Jesus being a significant figure in Islam, and Hindus are typically also very keen, their own tradition being an extremely inclusive one when it comes to acknowledging and incorporating new traditions that they encounter. Here in Australia I've attended several nativities with indigenous Australian elements added - the shepherds become Aboriginal hunters, the angels are dreamtime figures, the census is administered by whitefellas in police uniform, the flight into Egypt becomes a story of dispossession. And of course there is no tableau which cannot be improved by the addition of a kangaroo!

I honestly don't see why you think this would be problematic. You just have to use a bit of imagination.

Bannasidhe

Peregrinus wrote: »

Why are you asking me that question? I haven't suggested that they should do so.

Peregrinus wrote: »

It's not that difficult. There's a long tradition of introducing non-scriptural elements into nativity plays, and it's comparatively easy to pick some of those elements from non-Christian cultures. I don't see why you think this would be difficult. Obviously it depends on what cultural traditions are represented in the school, but Muslims are generally happy to be involved in nativity festivals, what with Jesus being a significant figure in Islam, and Hindus are typically also very keen, their own tradition being an extremely inclusive one when it comes to acknowledging and incorporating new traditions that they encounter. Here in Australia I've attended several nativities with indigenous Australian elements added - the shepherds become Aboriginal hunters, the angels are dreamtime figures, the census is administered by whitefellas in police uniform, the flight into Egypt becomes a story of dispossession. And of course there is no tableau which cannot be improved by the addition of a kangaroo!

I honestly don't see why you think this would be problematic. You just have to use a bit of imagination.

I asked you as you seem to be singing the praise of what is in effect a form of subliminal messaging - oh, we can have kangaroos and didgeridoos and Jesus is significant for Muslims and Hindus are inclusive so what's the harm but the fact remain that the underlying message remains a play celebrating Christianity and the birth of it's 'founder'.

Not to mention the harm done to native Australians by Christians... talk about adding salt to the wound

iguana

Peregrinus wrote: »

It's not that difficult. There's a long tradition of introducing non-scriptural elements into nativity plays, and it's comparatively easy to pick some of those elements from non-Christian cultures.

Ah I get you. Like holding nativity plays in December just because the pre-Christian Europeans had various big festivals in December when the scriptures put Jesus' birth somewhere between April and October.

expectationlost

City school first to be handed over by church authorities http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/education/city-school-first-to-be-handed-over-by-church-authorities-29595101.html basin lane at last handed over but with ethos strings attached?

Archbishop of Dublin Dr Diarmuid Martin had previously agreed that the Christian Brothers' boys' primary school could merge with a local girls' Catholic school to facilitate Educate Together. The amalgamated, co-ed school, called St James' Primary School, opened this month.

The agreement follows months of wrangling between the two sides over the terms of the handover of the Basin Lane site, which stymied Mr Quinn's hopes of opening a new Educate Together school on the site this month.

im sure the dept can make use of the school as a religious one, but we still need more non-religious and we're not going to get them via the cbs.

lazygal

Peregrinus wrote: »

It's not that difficult. There's a long tradition of introducing non-scriptural elements into nativity plays, and it's comparatively easy to pick some of those elements from non-Christian cultures. I don't see why you think this would be difficult. Obviously it depends on what cultural traditions are represented in the school, but Muslims are generally happy to be involved in nativity festivals, what with Jesus being a significant figure in Islam, and Hindus are typically also very keen, their own tradition being an extremely inclusive one when it comes to acknowledging and incorporating new traditions that they encounter. Here in Australia I've attended several nativities with indigenous Australian elements added - the shepherds become Aboriginal hunters, the angels are dreamtime figures, the census is administered by whitefellas in police uniform, the flight into Egypt becomes a story of dispossession. And of course there is no tableau which cannot be improved by the addition of a kangaroo!

I honestly don't see why you think this would be problematic. You just have to use a bit of imagination.

Why does there need to be a nativity play at all, which is a Christian story? Plenty of other plays children could do which don't have a religious message.

mohawk

expectationlost wrote: »

City school first to be handed over by church authorities http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/education/city-school-first-to-be-handed-over-by-church-authorities-29595101.html basin lane at last handed over but with ethos strings attached?



im sure the dept can make use of the school as a religious one, but we still need more non-religious and we're not going to get them via the cbs.

Reading the comments section was frustrating. I don't know who these people hate more atheists or 'foreigners'.

Brian Shanahan

lazygal wrote: »

How is that done when its a Christian story?

Easy, do all the bits in the bible stolen from other religions and cultures.

The only problem is that the kids would be too old for college by the time it finished.

PopePalpatine

mohawk wrote: »

Reading the comments section was frustrating. I don't know who these people hate more atheists or 'foreigners'.

I think I've seen other Boardsies compare the Indo to the Daily Mail, and I'm starting to see their point.

Hotblack Desiato

Peregrinus wrote: »

I didn't write about "smug, lazy atheists". For the record, I don't consider atheists to be either smug or lazy.

I wrote about a smug, lazy trope. It's a trope advanced by secularists, not athiests, and then not by all secularists; my impression is only by a minority. And, even then, I am not saying that those who advance this trope are smug, lazy people; all I am saying is that they are advancing a smug and lazy trope.

And I can't resist pointing out that the trope in question is that people - including secularist people - who disagree with a certain claim about what secularism requires are practising a hypocrisy. Should I ask why you don't comment when someone says, without bothering to advance an argument, that disagreement with his favoured view is "hypocrisy", but when I suggest that claim is a smug and lazy one you find it "a bit much"?

No, you shouldn't ask a poster why they have or haven't commented on a particular post, and you can't infer agreement or disagreement based on what they don't write.

Care to address the point I did write?

recedite

expectationlost wrote: »

City school first to be handed over by church authorities http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/education/city-school-first-to-be-handed-over-by-church-authorities-29595101.html basin lane at last handed over but with ethos strings attached?

Very lazy journalism there, its mostly old rumours rehashed. A deal has apparently been done, that seems to be all the newspaper knows.

Money was an issue between the sides, with the department wanting to take over the building at little or no cost, but ERST said that it could be constrained legally from releasing the property at less than its commercial value.
Among the issues raised by ERST was that it was only permitted to sell off school buildings to "further the purpose of Catholic Education in the Edmund Rice tradition".

Or, if you prefer, from the same article...

the agreed arrangements did not involve any payments.

It could mean anything, or nothing. It would be interesting to find out though;
1. Whether the Christian Brother trust fund is being paid by the govt. for this lease, while at the same time getting the govt. to cover their abuse redress costs.
2.Whether the Christian Brother trust fund is permitted by the govt. to influence in any way the "ethos" of the new school that occupies the building.

expectationlost

St. James's Primary School
James St., Dublin 8 ,Dublin 8

http://www.schooldays.ie/school/st.-jamess-primary-school-rollnumber-20429F


http://www.education.ie/en/find-a-school/School-Detail/?roll=20429F

Principal's name:MISS NOREEN FLYNN formerly president INTO and principal Mater Dei Primary School http://www.irelandstats.com/school/mater-dei-primary-school-rollnumber-00743w/

http://www.schooldays.ie/school/mater-dei-primary-school-rollnumber-00743W Mater Dei Primary School
Amalgamated Sept 2013
Basin Lane James Street Dublin 8 ,Dublin City 8
Ethos: Catholic

recedite

Yes, but I think what happened is; there was a choice of two schools originally; one for boys run by Christian Brothers and one for girls (presumably run by some class of nuns in the past). For some reason, parents have been reluctant to send their kids to the schools in recent years. So now the RCC have amalgamated the two into this new happy clappy catholic school, St. James. That leaves one spare building, which the Dept. of Education thought the owners might like to hand over to their direct competitors, the new ET school. But apparently this was not such a straightforward process....

expectationlost

yes reading the irish times today seems ET is getting a building http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/ruair%C3%AD-quinn-seeks-parents-views-on-religion-in-primary-schools-amid-plans-for-lessons-about-atheism-1.1536639

recedite

Still, it is annoying that when the school holidays ended a few weeks ago, the new happy clappy multicultural co-ed catholic school was all newly refurbished and staffed at the State's expense, while the ET school had nowhere to go. We still don't know whether the Dept. of Education is paying for the lease of the spare building, and whether this money (if any) will be spent by the trust fund to make the catholic school into the "better" school of the local area.
Schools with access to private sources of money in addition to the normal State capitation grants and State payroll (teacher salaries) can employ extra SNA staff, admin staff, caretakers, PE teachers. They can buy computers, whiteboards etc...

recedite

What happens next is the local atheists and agnostics fall over themselves trying to get their kids baptised, because getting the best education for their kids is what matters most to them.

The local parish priest announces that henceforth parents will have to attend mass once a month before they can apply to have their kids baptised, or get into the school.

Newly arrived immigrants, members of the evangelical churches, and muslims sign up with the new city centre ET school. As they look at the faces around them in the school, they wonder where all the white people are.

I'm not saying all this will happen, just that it would be a mistake to set up things in such a way that it could happen.

expectationlost

Parents get say in school changes http://irishexaminer.com/ireland/parents-get-say-in-school-changes-244059.html

But the issue affecting far more families is how non-Catholic children are catered for in so-called ‘standalone’ schools — more than half 3,250 primary schools, mostly in rural Ireland — where there is no other school within easy access for local pupils.

As an aid to making submissions, leaflets available on his department’s website and from local parents’ associations set out recommendations in last year’s report of the expert group that oversaw the forum, including suggestions that:

- Enrolment policies should be clear on how places are allocated when demand exceeds available space;

- Schools need to make appropriate provision for children whose parents do not want them taught religion.

National Parents Council-Primary chief executive Áine Lynch urged families to engage in the process.

Minister Quinn launches public consultation on inclusiveness in primary schools - See more at: http://www.education.ie/en/Press-Events/Press-Releases/2013-Press-Releases/PR-%2013-%2009-%2023.html#sthash.nXzchTZI.dpuf

Obliq

"Denominational Religious Education
The Advisory Group recommends that sacramental preparation, or education for religious
rites of other belief systems, should not encroach on the time allocated for the general
curriculum and recommends on-going discussion with parents and clergy with regard to
the parish role in sacramental preparation."

WOW! This'll put the cat among the pigeons, for sure! I'll get going on my submission tomorrow.


This leaflet from the education.ie press release is fantastic btw. I approve thoroughly http://www.education.ie/en/Press-Events/Conferences/Patronage-and-Pluralism-in-the-Primary-Sector/Parents-we-would-like-to-hear-what-you-think.pdf

Fair play to Minister Rory Quinn.

recedite

And some other potentially very important proposals from the Advisory Group there;

A new ethics program called ERB (Education about Religion and Beliefs)

The Advisory Group is of the view that all children have the right to receive education in ERB and Ethics and the State has the responsibility to ensure that this is provided. The Advisory Group requests that the NCCA, with assistance from the partners and mindful of existing programmes, should develop curriculum and teacher guidelines for ERB and Ethics, in line with the Toledo Principles, the RedCo, and the Cambridge Primary Review.
The Advisory Group has a particular concern for those children who do not participate in religious programmes in denominational schools. They may go through their primary schooling without any ERB and ethical education. For these children, the proposed programmes in ERB and Ethics are of central importance.
For other children, where programmes, already in existence, provide for some ERB and Ethics, the proposed NCCA programmes can be supplementary and the amount of the new programmes provided may be flexible within existing timetable provision.

Possible end to legalised religious discrimination in school admission policies, where the school is the only one in the area (but no mention of teacher recruitment policies)

Enrolment in a Stand-Alone school
The Advisory Group endorses the Minister for Education and Skills’ view that equitable enrolment policies are essential for achieving fairness and diversity. Particularly in some Stand Alone schools, the Group noted that the derogation in the Equal Status Act, 2000, Section 7(3)(c) may impede the Department of Education and Skills’ duty to provide for education for all children. In the light of experience, further consideration might need to be given to the amendment of this derogation.

Delete Rule 68 ?

The Advisory Group recommends that, as a first step and in line with the general view expressed at the Forum, Rule 68 should be deleted as soon as possible.

Full text of Rule 68, Dept of Education "Rules for National Schools" (first edition produced in 1965, during the Reign of Archbishop John Charles McQuaid, R.C. Archbishop of Dublin 1940-1971)

"Of all the parts of a school curriculum Religious Instruction is by far the most important, as its subject-matter, God's honour and service, includes the proper use of all man's faculties, and affords the most powerful inducements to their proper use. Religious Instruction is, therefore, a fundamental part of the school course, and a religious spirit should inform and vivify the whole work of the school. The teacher should constantly inculcate the practice of charity, justice, truth, purity, patience, temperance, obedience to lawful authority, and all the other moral virtues. In this way he will fulfil the primary duty of an educator, the moulding to perfect form of his pupils' character, habituating them to observe, in their relations with God and with their neighbour, the laws which God, both directly through the dictates of natural reason and through Revelation, and indirectly through the ordinance of lawful authority, imposes on mankind."

Well I'll be putting my faculties to "proper use" by sending in a submission in support of these proposals.

Don't forget to include the approved submission form Appendix 1 if doing so; it seems it will have to be printed off and posted in with a letter by snail mail. Small sacrifices though, for great progress.

expectationlost

this could cause trouble for the schools already following some of these practises

robindch

Educate Together gets the go-ahead for another two schools:

http://www.educatetogether.ie/media/national-news/knocknacarra-dublin-4-schools
http://www.education.ie/en/Press-Events/Press-Releases/2013-Press-Releases/PR2013-09-26.html

It's baby steps, but by golly, they're steps in the right direction.

expectationlost

Educate Together doesn't get the go-ahead for another two schools

http://news.eircom.net/national/21376087/

in swords and Midleton/Carrigtwohill area of East Cork