School patronage

recedite

The Swords primary school would have been ETB or ESI, not ET. It has been deferred because neither could demonstrate sufficient parental demand.
It must be quite difficult for a new patron to gather parental support; a lot of people don't like to experiment on something new when it comes to their kids education.
ETB is the new name for the VEC, well known for secondary schools but not for primary.
ESI has a website; http://www.educationalsociety.ie/

lazygal

Also, as demonstrated on numerous threads, even parents who claim to be atheist often seem to give into baptisms and send their children to schools where they'll do communion etc, despite objections they may have. Hard to galvanise support when even those who are of no faith decide to raise their children and educate them in faith schools.

expectationlost

recedite wrote: »

The Swords primary school would have been ETB or ESI, not ET. It has been deferred because neither could demonstrate sufficient parental demand.
It must be quite difficult for a new patron to gather parental support; a lot of people don't like to experiment on something new when it comes to their kids education.
ETB is the new name for the VEC, well known for secondary schools but not for primary.
ESI has a website; http://www.educationalsociety.ie/

so this ESI seem to be a superkids! school

seems to be for kids who want to study more then they are in school, talks about home studies packs, and now they want to open a school for those sort of kids

recedite

Yes, they say their pupils are extremely happy and successful.
I'm not sure what school they are talking about though, or whether they even have one.

Hesh's Umpire

expectationlost wrote: »

http://193.178.1.238/DDebate.aspx?F=...&Ex=2259#N2259 2009


Quote:
I take it that the Deputy is seeking copies of each catchment area map in the country.

By way of general background information, catchment boundaries have their origins in the establishment of free post primary education in the late 1960’s.

For planning purposes, the country was divided into about 300 geographic districts, each with several primary schools feeding into a post primary education centre with one or more post primary schools. The intention was that these defined districts would facilitate the orderly planning of school provision and accommodation needs. They also facilitated the provision of a nationwide school transport service, enabling children from remote areas to get to their nearest school.

In view of the number of catchment area maps involved, the Deputy will understand that it would be a major logistical exercise to collate and send all of these maps to him. However, if the Deputy has a particular area in mind I will arrange to have the map forwarded to him.



here's children ombudsman case study with more detail

http://www.oco.ie/complaints/investi...transport.html


Quote:
The issue of which was the correct map to be used in 2005 could have been determined conclusively if the Planning Section of the Department of Education and Science had furnished the Ombudsman for Children’s Office with a copy of a master map to include all catchment boundaries which was identical to that held by the relevant Bus Éireann office or that which was in place in the Local VEC office in 2005, or as near to identical in so much as the variation was negligible.

The Department of Education and Science did not supply a map to meet this standard as required. The map provided to this Office by the Planning Section in June 2006:
1. is different to what is currently being used by Bus Éireann and the VEC;
2. is questionable as to its suitability as it appears to be incomplete;
3. appears to be a large scale map scaled on a ratio of approximately 1:62500 and, as such, does not provide the required detail to administer such a scheme effectively and accurately; and
4. contains excessively thick boundaries for the purposes of clarity and accuracy.

Just to clarify that all this stuff is outdated. The catchment boundaries are no longer used to determine school transport eligibility. A strict distance criteria applies.

Hotblack Desiato

National Schools giving phone numbers to priests, parents getting calls from priests asking why their child is opting out of communion and to 'reflect on their lives'.

You couldn't make this up - could the RCC be more arrogant and patronising if it tried?

swampgas

ninja900 wrote: »

National Schools giving phone numbers to priests, parents getting calls from priests asking why their child is opting out of communion and to 'reflect on their lives'.

You couldn't make this up - could the RCC be more arrogant and patronising if it tried?

This might make some non-religious parents re-consider whether faking it as Catholics and going down the baptism route to get their kids into schools really is the easiest option in the long run.

clairefontaine

swampgas wrote: »

This might make some non-religious parents re-consider whether faking it as Catholics and going down the baptism route to get their kids into schools really is the easiest option in the long run.

I don't think you should have to be religious yourself to get your child first holy communion. In fact I find it quite imposing and cultish in attitude. If you have already gone through catechism etc, and choose to reject it yourself, that does not mean you can't also offer your child catechism, giving them the opportunity to know it and then later accept it or reject it later.

Obliq

clairefontaine wrote: »

I don't think you should have to be religious yourself to get your child first holy communion. In fact I find it quite imposing and cultish in attitude. If you have already gone through catechism etc, and choose to reject it yourself, that does not mean you can't also offer your child catechism, giving them the opportunity to know it and then later accept it or reject it later.

Well fine, but don't you think the parents should be committed enough to the process to teach them at home or bring them to extra-curricular classes for catechism, etc.? Instead of the current state of affairs where ALL children's education, while attending their local RCC NS, is negatively affected because of the time spent on this, and where children of different beliefs are left in limbo.

Bannasidhe

clairefontaine wrote: »

I don't think you should have to be religious yourself to get your child first holy communion. In fact I find it quite imposing and cultish in attitude. If you have already gone through catechism etc, and choose to reject it yourself, that does not mean you can't also offer your child catechism, giving them the opportunity to know it and then later accept it or reject it later.

Or you could allow them to wait until they are old enough to make an informed decision.

clairefontaine

Obliq wrote: »

Well fine, but don't you think the parents should be committed enough to the process to teach them at home or bring them to extra-curricular classes for catechism, etc.? Instead of the current state of affairs where ALL children's education, while attending their local RCC NS, is negatively affected because of the time spent on this, and where children of different beliefs are left in limbo.

It depends on how seriously you want to take it.

I think religion should be extra curricular for sure.

But I sent my little one to Sunday school and they want the parents to do group prayer, and the way I feel about it is that no, I paid my dues, secondly I fundamentally disagree with how you they are going about this, and thirdly no one should force an adult into catechism when they already had it. I'm not a child. So I pulled him out. They can stuff it.

If you can't cherry pick, then you are a fundamentalist.

clairefontaine

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Or you could allow them to wait until they are old enough to make an informed decision.

Hearts and minds, isn't that how they operate?

Bannasidhe

clairefontaine wrote: »

Hearts and minds, isn't that how they operate?

and fear. :mad:

clairefontaine

Bannasidhe wrote: »

and fear. :mad:

Lol. They never scared me. I remember first communion class and preparing for first confession. I suspected that this was a way for the priest to get to hear all the secrets of the neighbourhood.

Seriously I did not buy a word of it at the time.

recedite

clairefontaine wrote: »

I think religion should be extra curricular for sure.
But I sent my little one to Sunday school and they want the parents to do group prayer, and the way I feel about it is that no, I paid my dues, secondly I fundamentally disagree with how you they are going about this, and thirdly no one should force an adult into catechism when they already had it. I'm not a child. So I pulled him out.

Sunday school is presumably held in a church and is completely separate to national school.
I'm surprised you are willing to make your child attend these extra curricular group sessions, but you won't attend the adult group session yourself.

clairefontaine

recedite wrote: »

Sunday school is presumably held in a church and is completely separate to national school.
I'm surprised you are willing to make your child attend these extra curricular group sessions, but you won't attend the adult group session yourself.

I already went to school. Do you want me to repeat first grade too?

Anyhow I pulled him also because I didn't like the instruction. It may as well have been the Moonies.

kylith

clairefontaine wrote: »

I don't think you should have to be religious yourself to get your child first holy communion. In fact I find it quite imposing and cultish in attitude. If you have already gone through catechism etc, and choose to reject it yourself, that does not mean you can't also offer your child catechism, giving them the opportunity to know it and then later accept it or reject it later.

In order to do communion the child has to be baptised. If you baptise them you are removing their option to join a religion of their choosing, or not, when they are older.

clairefontaine

kylith wrote: »

In order to do communion the child has to be baptised. If you baptise them you are removing their option to join a religion of their choosing, or not, when they are older.

No you're not.

Whether your baptised or not you still have to go through a conversion process.

Delirium

A New Problem in Ireland: Where to Find a Non-Catholic School?

DUBLIN—Sarah Lennon’s son Ethan is just 7 weeks old, and she’s already stressing out about his applications for primary schools. A lapsed Catholic, she hopes to land him a spot at a sought-after multi-denominational school in suburban Dublin—one of few alternatives to the Church-run schools in her neighborhood.

“It’s quite urgent to have our name down early and have the Catholic school here as a back up,” Lennon said. “But the Catholic school may not admit our son, unless we have his form in early, because he won’t be baptized.”

Lennon is among a growing number of Irish parents who no longer identify with the Catholic Church and struggle to find schools that don’t clash with their convictions. In Ireland—once considered the most Catholic country in the world—the Catholic Church runs more than 90 percent of all public schools. Other religious groups operate another 6 percent. But Ireland’s religiosity has waned in recent years, amid changing demographics, rising secularism and reports of Church sexual abuse and cover-ups.

Weekly church attendance among Irish Catholics dropped from more than 90 percent to 30 percent in the past four decades. Those in Ireland who identify as religious plummeted from 69 percent in 2005 to just 47 percent last year, according to a WIN-Gallup International poll. And the number of people who chose “no religion” in the last census soared, making non-believers the second largest group in the nation.

These changes are starting to crack the Catholic Church’s monopoly on Irish education, but not quickly enough to meet growing parental demand for school diversity.

full article in link above

lazygal

clairefontaine wrote: »

No you're not.

Whether your baptised or not you still have to go through a conversion process.

If you're baptised catholic the church sees you as a catholic forever, hence the fact you can't do count me out any more.

swampgas

koth wrote: »

A New Problem in Ireland: Where to Find a Non-Catholic School?

I don't remember seeing any TDs getting involved in this - are they all keeping their heads down like they did on abortion? Anyone seen any news items on this that I might have missed?

It strikes me that this is an ideal issue for parents to bring to their TDs.

kylith

clairefontaine wrote: »

No you're not.

Whether your baptised or not you still have to go through a conversion process.

What branch of Christianity is this? I don't recall any kind of conversion process in Catholicism.

robindch

swampgas wrote: »

I don't remember seeing any TDs getting involved in this - are they all keeping their heads down like they did on abortion?

I can't imagine there's much stomach in Leinster House for another pitched battle against religious interests.

Cabaal

clairefontaine wrote: »

I already went to school. Do you want me to repeat first grade too?

So the way you see it is, you've done the mass/learning stuff as a child its not your job to be involved in your child's religious upbringing directly.

Don't you agree to raise your child in the faith when they get baptized though?

If this is the case then its no different to any parent that pushes their kid through communion etc, but hates going to mass with their kid.

You're either practicing the faith and what it requires you to do or you're not, if you don't like practicing the faith then why force your child into it too?

Bannasidhe

kylith wrote: »

What branch of Christianity is this? I don't recall any kind of conversion process in Catholicism.

Ex Sister-in-law went through a conversion process to become a Catholic.

I must admit, I was a ickle bit responsible

swampgas

robindch wrote: »

I can't imagine there's much stomach in Leinster House for another pitched battle against religious interests.

Oh sure, the government is definitely going to drag its feet on it.

I was wondering if enough parents raised it with their local TDs, whether they would see any mileage in voicing support for educational reform. There will be some tough battles fought in the next election, if a TD thought there was enough support for it they might consider it something to give them an edge, especially in large multi-seater constituencies. This looks like one of those issues which isn't going to go away any time soon, so jumping on the bandwagon early could have its advantages.

I won't be holding my breath though.

PopePalpatine

It might be the only way for Labour to rise in the polls.

kylith

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Ex Sister-in-law went through a conversion process to become a Catholic.

I must admit, I was a ickle bit responsible

I'm curious how you were responsible.

I can certainly accept that there would be a conversion process for an adult converting to Catholicism, but not for a child. Presumably the equivalent would be Confirmation, where you confirm the promises which were made on your behalf at baptism.

Anyway, the upshot is that baptising your child into Catholicism means signing them up for life, and taking away their ability to choose whether or not to join the Catholic church. AFAIK conversion to another religion is the only way to get out of the RCC, and even then I'd imagine that they just write "Lapsed)" beside your name.

Morag

kylith wrote: »

What branch of Christianity is this? I don't recall any kind of conversion process in Catholicism.

There is on for adults it's very involved.

lazygal

And adults choose to do it.