School patronage

expectationlost

Cabaal wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/1023/482131-esri-school/

Drawing on international comparisons, the report concludes that any additional funding provided by the State may have to be matched by a ceding of control on the part of trusts on issues such as the appointment of teachers or school admission policies.

as it should be

expectationlost

couple of articles from conor ryan in the irish examiner who's been doggedly following the redress issue

the government had been trying to get schools in lieu of cash but the orders still don't except that they should pay 50% of compensation
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/order-told-state-to-scrap-vow-on-abuse-redress-248378.html

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/order-told-state-to-scrap-vow-on-abuse-redress-248378.html

robindch

Irish Examiner wrote:

Following meetings with the department, the order wrote a letter making it clear its voluntary contribution in response to the Ryan Report “was not a matter for negotiation”. It said it would not participate in any attempt by the State to revalue its post-2009 offer and it wanted the Programme for Government changed.

“We are not willing to enter negotiations with Government towards its fulfilment of school infrastructure which it made in its Programme for Government for the transfer of school infrastructure,” the order wrote.

In a memo to Mr Quinn, department officials said the compromised proposal, to transfer school sites without changing control, had been put to the 18 orders. Fifteen did not respond and the three that did express an interest only owned 16 schools between them.

I'd put their collective silence down as breath-takingly arrogant, except that they seem to be getting away with it.

kylith

Time to start rounding them up for debtor's jail, imo.

PopePalpatine

kylith wrote: »

Time to start rounding them up for debtor's jail, imo.

Nah, send in CAB.

expectationlost

Official of Irish Bishops' Conference on What Makes a School Catholic
http://t.co/AuXQMPS9CM

Here are notes from an address given by Monsignor Jim Cassin, executive secretary to the Commission for Catholic Education and Formation of the Irish Episcopal Conference.

This address was delivered Nov. 15 to the Catholic Principals Association in Cookstown, Co Tyrone


1. The belief that the human person is made in the image of God
2. The belief that we meet God in the ‘bits and pieces’ of everyday life
3. The belief that we are saved as a community.
4. The fact that we belong to a tradition.
5. The fact that we value knowledge.

five practical applications:
1. For the school it is urgent to focus on deepening young people’s relationship with Jesus
2. ...young people are capable of handing on the faith
3. Parents have a critical role
4. ...catechesis of young people through university
5. The Church and schools need to find ways of vocational recruitment and discernment.

expectationlost

dublin parish shapefiles and country diocese here from the cso http://www.cso.ie/en/census/census2011boundaryfiles/ along with stats to go in them

Pherekydes

five practical applications:
1. For the school it is urgent to focus on deepening young people’s relationship with Jesus

Before they reach maturity and begin thinking for themselves.

2. ...young people are capable of handing on the faith

If they're brainwashed deeply enough.

3. Parents have a critical role

In carrying on the brainwashing. This is the part [of a parent] I signally failed at.

4. ...catechesis of young people through university

Continue the brainwashing.

5. The Church and schools need to find ways of vocational recruitment and discernment.

Because we really need more brainwashers.

expectationlost

Inclusive schools the way forward, writes Quinn http://www.irishexaminer.com/analysis/inclusive-schools-the-way-forward-writes-quinn-250078.html

ruairi qiunn op ed in the irish examiner

However, I am also conscious that while providing a choice of schools may be practicable in urban areas; in many parts of the country geography and distance mean there is often only one school to serve the entire community. There are about 1,700 of these primary schools. This means that they need to cater for the full range of traditions, religions, and beliefs in the local communities which they serve.

One of the challenges for these schools is to strike the right balance to ensure that the religious beliefs of all children in the locality are respected.

Therefore, the forum also looked at promoting greater inclusiveness in all schools,

do rural communities not deserve to get as much freedom from religion as others , they might even need it ore then we city dwellers do

Sarky

expectationlost wrote: »

Inclusive schools the way forward, writes Quinn http://www.irishexaminer.com/analysis/inclusive-schools-the-way-forward-writes-quinn-250078.html

Jesus, for an instant I thought you meant David Quinn, and was sure the End Times had come.

recedite

Garrett Fitzgerald has a new book out ??
I presume there was a ghost writer involved....

freedominacup

The thing that's bugging me most about this survey(?) of parents views is that it's only concerned with the most unimportant subject in the curriculum. There's no danger we're going to be asked about the teaching of Irish or foreign languages, history, even sphe. No we get asked about religion:rolleyes:.

My kids attend a small rural school with quite a few different (mainly christian) religions or none amongst the families attending. I don't hear too many complaints and my kids are friendly with some of the kids from non-catholic backgrounds and their parents would be in my kitchen or vise versa fairly regularly. One concession that should be made in schools like this one is for religion class/religious instruction to be held as the last lesson of the day which would facilitate anyone wanting to opt out to take their kids home a bit earlier. It would certainly be interesting to see what sort of participation rates there would be in that class if the option to leave was there.

Hotblack Desiato

expectationlost wrote: »

Inclusive schools the way forward, writes Quinn http://www.irishexaminer.com/analysis/inclusive-schools-the-way-forward-writes-quinn-250078.html

Bah.

However, I am also conscious that while providing a choice of schools may be practicable in urban areas

Not if you live in a long established suburb with a stable rather than growing population - there will be no new schools built here. There are TWO gaelscoils in the area so that skims off a lot of potential ET pupils. There are FIVE RCC schools. The only 'choice' is a small CoI school, which is excellent, but still permeated by a religious ethos throughout the school day.

There is NO choice at all at second level - all schools are RCC patronage.

This myth that most, or even many, people in urban areas have a choice of avoiding religious indoctrination for their kids, really boils my wee.

Hotblack Desiato

freedominacup wrote: »

The thing that's bugging me most about this survey(?) of parents views is that it's only concerned with the most unimportant subject in the curriculum. There's no danger we're going to be asked about the teaching of Irish or foreign languages, history, even sphe. No we get asked about religion:rolleyes:.

Well you're lucky if you get asked at all, most parents aren't going to be. Quinn is hastening towards inclusive education as slowly as possible.

Religion is not important at school?
It's the only subject which is used to segregate kids (except gaelscoils!)
It's the only subject which can get a teacher fired due to whether they live their private life according to a disputed interpretation of a disputed translation of a 2000 year old book.
It's the only subject (except gaelscoils, again ) which is used to favour certain groups of kids over others and give them extra funding, smaller pupil teacher ratios, free buses, even grants for boarding, because they can't reasonably be expected to go to the same school as other kids :rolleyes:
It's the only subject, apart from English (Irish in gaelscoils) which gets to permeate the entire school day.

One concession that should be made in schools like this one is for religion class/religious instruction to be held as the last lesson of the day which would facilitate anyone wanting to opt out to take their kids home a bit earlier. It would certainly be interesting to see what sort of participation rates there would be in that class if the option to leave was there.

That's what the national school system was supposed to be like, 150 years ago, until the RCC and presbyterians hijacked it towards their own sectarian ends.

expectationlost

ninja900 wrote: »

Bah.



Not if you live in a long established suburb with a stable rather than growing population - there will be no new schools built here. There are TWO gaelscoils in the area so that skims off a lot of potential ET pupils. There are FIVE RCC schools. The only 'choice' is a small CoI school, which is excellent, but still permeated by a religious ethos throughout the school day.

There is NO choice at all at second level - all schools are RCC patronage.

This myth that most, or even many, people in urban areas have a choice of avoiding religious indoctrination for their kids, really boils my wee.

well he said that he would work towards actual choice in urban areas but wouldn't try in rural areas, it would just be catholic church being tolerant.

Brian Shanahan

freedominacup wrote: »

The thing that's bugging me most about this survey(?) of parents views is that it's only concerned with the most unimportant subject in the curriculum. There's no danger we're going to be asked about the teaching of Irish or foreign languages, history, even sphe. No we get asked about religion:rolleyes:.

Actually religious indoctrination is the most important issue in modern Irish education. Because the religious "teaching" the vast majority of young kids are subjected to is, "accept god because a 2,500 year old book which got everything else wrong says he's real, and because if an old book written by a committee of older men says its real, then it must be. Ignore all the evidence there is out there, and stifle your curiosity because that will all lead you away from god."

That is the worst possible thing anybody could teach to their children, to accept something simply because it is written, and to stifle their curiosity and urge to learn. And that kind of lesson spreads to all areas of education.

Hotblack Desiato

expectationlost wrote: »

in rural areas, it would just be catholic church being tolerant.

That'd be a first.

freedominacup

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

Actually religious indoctrination is the most important issue in modern Irish education. Because the religious "teaching" the vast majority of young kids are subjected to is, "accept god because a 2,500 year old book which got everything else wrong says he's real, and because if an old book written by a committee of older men says its real, then it must be. Ignore all the evidence there is out there, and stifle your curiosity because that will all lead you away from god."

How is that now? The vast majority of young kids are in a class where at least some of the other children are not participating in religion class. They'd have to be pretty obtuse to have their curiosity stifled to the extent that they don't wonder why Emma or Darren or whoever doesn't seem to be suffering too many ill-effects from doing their homework or reading whatever Darren Shan book they're currently on during religion class.

freedominacup

ninja900 wrote: »

Well you're lucky if you get asked at all, most parents aren't going to be. Quinn is hastening towards inclusive education as slowly as possible.

Religion is not important at school?
It's the only subject which is used to segregate kids (except gaelscoils!)
How does this segregation manifest itself?

It's the only subject which can get a teacher fired due to whether they live their private life according to a disputed interpretation of a disputed translation of a 2000 year old book.
When was the last teacher fired over their private life?

It's the only subject (except gaelscoils, again ) which is used to favour certain groups of kids over others and give them extra funding, smaller pupil teacher ratios, free buses, even grants for boarding, because they can't reasonably be expected to go to the same school as other kids :rolleyes:
It's the only subject, apart from English (Irish in gaelscoils) which gets to permeate the entire school day.
A bit of a double standard at play here. There are countless threads around the subject of religion in schools but none around the favouritism shown towards gaelscoils and the manner in which this favouritism disadvantages pupils in mainstream schools. Why is that?

The unwillingness to change the school patronage system could at least be explained to some degree by inertia, at least there wasn't a concious wilful decision taken to disadvantage one group of students in favour of another, certainly in the past 50 years as there has been on numerous occasions in relation to the funding of gaelscoils.



That's what the national school system was supposed to be like, 150 years ago, until the RCC and presbyterians hijacked it towards their own sectarian ends.
If only all hijackings had such benign outcomes. For all of the faults they had they were the only schools available to the vast majority of people.

.

Hotblack Desiato

The segregation manifests itself in a sectarian education system which is not equally tolerant and welcoming of all children, and it's wasteful of resources.

Many teachers have to lie about their religious beliefs to gain employment, this form of discrimination is explicitly legal. Gay teachers in particular live in fear in catholic schools. At least one teacher was fired in the 80s for becoming pregnant.

I disagree with the favouritism shown towards gaelscoils but that's not relevant to this thread or indeed forum.

CoI schools have been (until very recently) given extra state funding. You can get a free school bus or a grant towards boarding purely on religious grounds.

150 years of sectarianism and religious conflict, brainwashing of the populace at taxpayer expense, and forced religious indoctrination is far from a benign outcome as far as I'm concerned.

freedominacup

ninja900 wrote: »

The segregation manifests itself in a sectarian education system which is not equally tolerant and welcoming of all children, and it's wasteful of resources.

Many teachers have to lie about their religious beliefs to gain employment, this form of discrimination is explicitly legal. Gay teachers in particular live in fear in catholic schools. At least one teacher was fired in the 80s for becoming pregnant.

I disagree with the favouritism shown towards gaelscoils but that's not relevant to this thread or indeed forum.

CoI schools have been (until very recently) given extra state funding. You can get a free school bus or a grant towards boarding purely on religious grounds.

150 years of sectarianism and religious conflict, brainwashing of the populace at taxpayer expense, and forced religious indoctrination is far from a benign outcome as far as I'm concerned.

Any admissions policy will favour one group over another. Nephews of mine attend a school where top priority for access is given to children of teachers in the school regardless of where they live in relation to the schools catchment area. I really don't agree with the sectarian jibe maybe I have a diiferent understanding of the word. It would imply that most of our schools were being run to emphasise the differences between people of various religions or none at all, I've seen no evidence of this, not once has any of my children come home to tell me how they had been taught the ways they were different to people of other religions or races.

How many facets of Irish society today have anything to do with policies from the 1980's. You could be right about the religious beliefs bit and there can be no defense for it TBH. Something that should be changed immeadiately no questions asked and something our esteemed minister should crack on with survey or no survey.

I'm not sure I said it was a benign outcome just that if all hijackings had the result that their victims were better off after the hijacking. When the religious schools started to ply their trade there were no alternatives for most of the population. Hijacking would imply that they took over a system already in place against the will of the people or the state that AFAIK did not happen. They certainly had the effect of helping to improve peoples lot in this country in the beginning.

Sarky

freedominacup wrote: »

Any admissions policy will favour one group over another.

Only if you don't call policy makers on their bullsh*t, like what's being done here.

swampgas

freedominacup wrote: »

Any admissions policy will favour one group over another. Nephews of mine attend a school where top priority for access is given to children of teachers in the school regardless of where they live in relation to the schools catchment area.

Is this a state school? And is this admissions policy explicitly stated by the school?

I really don't agree with the sectarian jibe maybe I have a diiferent understanding of the word. It would imply that most of our schools were being run to emphasise the differences between people of various religions or none at all, I've seen no evidence of this, not once has any of my children come home to tell me how they had been taught the ways they were different to people of other religions or races.

When a primary school is preparing students for the sacraments of a single religion, how is that not sectarian?

How many facets of Irish society today have anything to do with policies from the 1980's. You could be right about the religious beliefs bit and there can be no defense for it TBH. Something that should be changed immediately no questions asked and something our esteemed minister should crack on with survey or no survey.

I'm not sure I said it was a benign outcome just that if all hijackings had the result that their victims were better off after the hijacking.

How do we know what educational system might have evolved had the RCC not been given so much control? It's silly (IMO anyway) to think that no schools would have eventually been provided to fill the educational gap without the RCC. In fact the British were trying to implement non-denominational state schools but were thwarted by the churches.

One of the reasons so many people think the school system under church control is "benign" is because they themselves were processed by it, and have been indoctrinated by it during their most impressionable years. In my day the schools seemed to spend as much time explaining how the church was some kind of saviour for the Irish people down through history as it did on actual religion, and it was only many years later I discovered what a distortion of the truth that was.

When the religious schools started to ply their trade there were no alternatives for most of the population. Hijacking would imply that they took over a system already in place against the will of the people or the state that AFAIK did not happen. They certainly had the effect of helping to improve peoples lot in this country in the beginning.

And at a great and hidden cost. Would all the child abuse scandals have been possible, to the scale they did, had the population not been brain-washed en-masse by the school system to give unquestioning respect to the church?

How many brilliant teachers have we lost because they refused to partake in religious indoctrination?

Were we really so bloody helpless as a people that we could not sort out schooling for our children without the crutch of the church? The church teaches a culture of fatalism and learned dependence. That hasn't helped Ireland much either, IMO.

freedominacup

swampgas wrote: »

Is this a state school? And is this admissions policy explicitly stated by the school?


When a primary school is preparing students for the sacraments of a single religion, how is that not sectarian?


How do we know what educational system might have evolved had the RCC not been given so much control? It's silly (IMO anyway) to think that no schools would have eventually been provided to fill the educational gap without the RCC. In fact the British were trying to implement non-denominational state schools but were thwarted by the churches.

One of the reasons so many people think the school system under church control is "benign" is because they themselves were processed by it, and have been indoctrinated by it during their most impressionable years. In my day the schools seemed to spend as much time explaining how the church was some kind of saviour for the Irish people down through history as it did on actual religion, and it was only many years later I discovered what a distortion of the truth that was.



And at a great and hidden cost. Would all the child abuse scandals have been possible, to the scale they did, had the population not been brain-washed en-masse by the school system to give unquestioning respect to the church?

How many brilliant teachers have we lost because they refused to partake in religious indoctrination?

Were we really so bloody helpless as a people that we could not sort out schooling for our children without the crutch of the church? The church teaches a culture of fatalism and learned dependence. That hasn't helped Ireland much either, IMO.

It is a state funded school if that's what you mean. And yes it is stated school policy. I have seen a copy of the admissions policy when the younger of my nephews was being enrolled in the school and there was a certain amount of humming and hawing about admitting him on an age basis.

How do you define sectarian?

I don't think that no school system would have evolved as you said that's a silly presumption but at the time the schools founded by the teaching orders were a big improvement on what was already in place which was virtually nothing AFAIK.

I must have attended schools run on much different lines to yourself as I don't remember that much indoctrination never mind to say history being taught from the point of view of the church as saviour but then again I had a history teacher who described the 1916 Rising as "That shower of lunatics above in the GPO". He taught in a CBS.

It's not fair to blame the church for all of the fatalism and learned dependence the state wasn't behind the door at any point in encouraging this type of thinking at any point.

Kiwi in IE

freedominacup wrote: »

For all of the faults they had they were the only schools available to the vast majority of people.

And the problem is that they still are. In 2013!

freedominacup

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

And the problem is that they still are. In 2013!

How much of a problem is it? what percentage of parents want changes?

Kiwi in IE

freedominacup wrote: »

How much of a problem is it? what percentage of parents want changes?

The role of a school is to educate. An essential requirement to set up a child for a life time of learning is the encouragement and development of critical thought. Children should be encouraged to explore, be curious and question everything. How is this congruent with being indoctrinated to believe that archaic myths and legends are fact?

Parents who want their children indoctrinated with religion should do it in their own time. There is no place for religion in modern western societies outside the homes and churches of followers.

Hotblack Desiato

freedominacup wrote: »

Any admissions policy will favour one group over another.

True but it doesn't have to be unfair (e.g. kids who live in the area should be favoured, but other admission policies can be a cover for bigotry or snobbery.)

I really don't agree with the sectarian jibe maybe I have a diiferent understanding of the word. It would imply that most of our schools were being run to emphasise the differences between people of various religions or none at all

Sectarian means segregated by religion.
How can running separate schools for different religions NOT emphasise the differences between people?
Especially when all religions say that people in the in-group are 'chosen' or 'saved', people not part of the group are misguided at best, evil at worst.

I'm not sure I said it was a benign outcome just that if all hijackings had the result that their victims were better off after the hijacking. When the religious schools started to ply their trade there were no alternatives for most of the population. Hijacking would imply that they took over a system already in place against the will of the people or the state that AFAIK did not happen. They certainly had the effect of helping to improve peoples lot in this country in the beginning.

I was talking about the national school system. It was (and is) taxpayer funded, and if it had been allowed to be implemented as it was intended, it wouldn't be a million miles away from the ETs of today (although far greater in numbers.)

To call a school a 'national school' when it is effectively controlled by a religion is ridiculous.

Brian Shanahan

freedominacup wrote: »

How is that now? The vast majority of young kids are in a class where at least some of the other children are not participating in religion class.

To make a sound of hollow laughing.

As has been pointed out many times here, there are two big holes with that reasoning to whit:
a) because there often is no supervision outside the class the child is in, even if they are not supposed to sit in on religious brainwashing they are often forced to. Despite the schools supposedly having to allow children not be indoctrinated, there is no requirement to provide alternative, supervised activity, thus effectively forcing them to.
b) the schools are controlled by the church, often biasing appointments in favour of evangelical teachers, and always biasing the schoolbooks used in favour of those pushing religious propoganda (e.g. the Veritas published Alive-O series. Take a look at it, the books nakedly lie to children in the "interest" of "educating" them). Thus even in the few schools where the headmaster/mistress has the balls to stand up to the PP or the PP has the integrity to stay out of an area he has no knowledge or expertise, and religious brainwashing is not mandatory, the church still ensures its message permeates all the classes.

expectationlost

the state of schools is like revolutionaries gaining power over a dictatorship and getting their leader legitimately elected a number of times but then they go too far themselves too controlling and repeating the history of domination.