School patronage

Bannasidhe

kylith wrote: »

I'm curious how you were responsible.

.

While she was still married to brother of mine he bought a grave in Kinsale...I jokingly commented that as it was a 'catlick grave in a catlick country' her German Lutheran corpse would have to go elsewhere...she only went and converted :eek:. Germans can be soo literal...!

They are now, ironically, divorced and she has attempted to renounce her Catholicism as she was able to do with her Lutheranism...oopsie. She didn't read the very very small print...how very unGerman of her.

Stereomaniac

I can't remember the last time I heard of someone converting their religious denomination when they got married. A friend got married last year to a girl or a different religion and they just had a representative from both churches at the ceremony. Now I guess one was Catholic and the other Protestant, so maybe that isn't AS different as it once was for people.

Bannasidhe

Stereomaniac wrote: »

I can't remember the last time I heard of someone converting their religious denomination when they got married. A friend got married last year to a girl or a different religion and they just had a representative from both churches at the ceremony. Now I guess one was Catholic and the other Protestant, so maybe that isn't AS different as it once was for people.

If memory serves in order for a non-Catholic to get permission from the bishop to marry a Catholic they used to have to agree that any children would be raised as Catholic. I think this no longer applies but it was an outrageous practice.

robindch

Being an atheist as a teenager in an Irish school:

http://www.trollingwithlogic.com/the-dreaded-yearly-start-of-school-mass/

Trolling with Logic wrote:

I have been having a very easy time about being atheist, from my school recently. A fresh start with a science teacher as my class tutor has made it all a lot more manageable.

BUT last week on the morning of the school mass, I was called out of class by the principle. Who informed me that all the teachers and staff of the school were required to attend the school mass, so i would have to sit in her car studying for the duration of the mass.

I had made arrangements to leave the school and go to my Islamic friends house, but i was told i wasn’t allowed to leave the school unless my parents came and collected me! They weren’t able to do so and had already given me permission to leave the school!

Anyway another student in the school fainted so a teacher had to stay with her, so i told the principle i was staying as well.

All i can say is that i am counting down the days till i can leave that place forever! I have given up hope on the system being made fairer in my time left in school, but it has to change eventually.

clairefontaine

lazygal wrote: »

If you're baptised catholic the church sees you as a catholic forever, hence the fact you can't do count me out any more.

They can see me as a flying monkey if they want, it doesn't make me one.

lazygal

clairefontaine wrote: »

They can see me as a flying monkey if they want, it doesn't make me one.

Why the reference to conversion? To what faith were you referring?

Hotblack Desiato

"Faith-based education is a force for good" says archbishop. Quelle surprise. Usual fallacies invoked.

expectationlost

ninja900 wrote: »

"Faith-based education is a force for good" says archbishop. Quelle surprise. Usual fallacies invoked.

he goes very quickly from not having a religious convictions to having other convictions to having none

and as ever while having relatively privileged position they paint themselves as under threat of being forcefully removed

Cabaal

ninja900 wrote: »

"Faith-based education is a force for good" says archbishop. Quelle surprise. Usual fallacies invoked.

Yeah, cause an Archbishop is going to give a unbiased view of our education system.

Curious if he'd be all for it if 98% of our school systems in Ireland were Muslim, would he be in so much agreement then?

expectationlost

Cabaal wrote: »

Yeah, cause an Archbishop is going to give a unbiased view of our education system.

Curious if he'd be all for it if 98% of our school systems in Ireland were Muslim, would he be in so much agreement then?

another equally useless imagined bit of oppression ^

recedite

This guy is a C of I archbishop, so he is not concerned with catholic schools, except in the sense that his C of I schools have traditionally picked up a lot of pupils who were deliberately avoiding RC schools for one reason or another.

However the maths still works in his favour; the C of I gets paid by the State to educate far more children than are actually in the CofI. As he said himself;

Most schools under Church of Ireland patronage have an enrolment representative of a wider community.

The big threat to him is the ET schools which provide the kind of alternative that many of those people were really looking for, but just wasn't available in the past, and still isn't in most places outside Dublin.

Hence this diatribe against schools which don't base their education around religious "faith".

Hotblack Desiato

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/catholic-archbishop-of-dublin-defends-protestant-schools-1.1560841

Catholic Archbishop of Dublin defends Protestant schools

In a country like Ireland “there is a public interest in supporting and defending independent Protestant schools in order to allow the particular role of the Protestant communities in Irish society to flourish,” the Catholic Archbishop of Dublin Diarmuid Martin has said. “These separate schools have in fact lead to an enrichment of Irish society through allowing the specific contribution to society of the Protestant communities to emerge,” he said.

Speaking last night at a Contending Modernities conference in the University of Notre Dame’s London centre, he noted Catholic dominance of the educational system in Ireland was “an unintended fruit of history”. He said “the national school system introduced in Ireland in the mid-19th century aimed at having a system of State schools for all, but with separate religious education within the school. Some Protestant authorities rightly saw that this system might effectively leave them as a permanent minority in every school. They withdrew from the system, leaving the majority of schools demographically Catholic and with the passage of time they became institutionally Catholic.”

Isn't that totally revisionist? I believe the RCC played their part in wrecking the intended secular, non-sectarian nature of the national school system.

Now there was, he said, “a growing pluralism in patronage of schools in Ireland but the vast majority of the population attends a school that is Catholic.” He believed “denominational education has a place within a pluralist society but for that to work it requires that those in leadership in both religious education and education of other inspiration have to change attitudes and be mutually respectful and open to dialogue”.

96% isn't 'a place' it's utter domination, there is a growing plurality but it's still absolutely tiny.



Meanwhile, part 2 of last week's ode to the Church of Ireland:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/preparing-for-a-future-with-a-mixed-faith-education-1.1560448

Irenaeus of Lyons once said that the glory of God is a human being fully alive.

Oh, FFS :mad:

Oh and inclusivity means accommodating more than one type of christianity in a school, apparently.

expectationlost

Church of Ireland's Bishop of Cork

said https://twitter.com/b2dac/status/370452255603830784

Bandon GS and Midleton where I'm involved are effectively fee-charging community schools, not elitist.

look at the facilities these schools have
http://www.midletoncollege.ie/secondary-school-cork/facilities

http://www.bandongrammar.ie/facilities.htm

the bishop is delusional

recedite

ninja900 wrote: »

Meanwhile, part 2 of last week's ode to the Church of Ireland:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/preparing-for-a-future-with-a-mixed-faith-education-1.1560448

an archbishop wrote:

My own view is that a proverbial ‘clear blue water’ between faith schools and non-faith schools is desirable.

I can agree with him there.
I presume he still wants State funding for his faith schools though. That would be another matter, up for debate.

expectationlost

can anyone follow what this guy was on about, it seems even his fellow bishop didn't know what he was on about http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/c-of-i-row-over-sectarianism-comments-by-dublin-archbishop-1.1566097 he was talking about sectarianism but it seemed to involve other protestents and use of TCD as a teacher trainer rather then St Patricks, (a catholic college)

and

Use of ‘Polyester Protestant’ term criticised by archbishop
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/use-of-polyester-protestant-term-criticised-by-archbishop-1.1568728

ps nativity plays are safe http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/nativity-plays-not-at-risk-says-department-of-education-spokeswoman-1.1567550

recedite

The term ‘Polyester Protestant’ is offensive.
Polyester is an excellent material for base layers and the like.

recedite

expectationlost wrote: »

can anyone follow what this guy was on about, it seems even his fellow bishop didn't know what he was on about http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/c-of-i-row-over-sectarianism-comments-by-dublin-archbishop-1.1566097

Its a row about whether people who think protestants and catholics shouldn't mix are sectarian, or whether they are just trying to preserve their own ethos.

magicbastarder

reminds me of the term 'rino' - republican in name only, coined by tea party types to label republicans who voted for the fiscal deal.

i was thinking it'd be good to have a similar label to pin on catholics who only want to go to mass when they get married. would just need to think of a good word for the H in chinos, maybe.

recedite

This Jackson guy comes from Northern Ireland where the C of I is confident and dominant. He does not realise that when members of a minority religion mix with a majority religion which is heavily involved in the running of community structures such as schools, community centres and sports facilities, the minority religion is liable to become extinct.

A minority religion needs to employ one or more of these strategies to survive;

1. Be pro-active and aggressive in recruitment (eg scientology, jehovahs witnesses, mormons)

2. Segregate the minority population socially by controlling schools and having certain youth organisations in which they hold a a local majority.
(C of I achieve this by controlling a segregated education system and with local over-representation in certain youth clubs, scout troops and sports clubs. Badminton in church halls. Hockey and rugby as opposed to GAA)

3. Immigration. Once associated with protestants (the plantations etc.) nowadays it is associated with muslims.

There used to be a significant Jewish population in the bigger cities in Ireland as a result of 3. above, but they failed to employ either ofstrategies 1. or 2. and no longer exist as a viable population.

magicbastarder

according to the forum list, this thread has 325 posts - but the latest is 320? does the forum list count posts which may have been deleted?

recedite

I see 320 replies shown on the forum list.

magicbastarder

this is what i see:

donspeekinglesh

I'm seeing 328 now in the forum list

magicbastarder

similar in the gay marriage thread - the forum list claims 4,065 posts, but there are currently 3,851 posts in the thread.

recedite

expectationlost wrote: »

ps nativity plays are safe http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/nativity-plays-not-at-risk-says-department-of-education-spokeswoman-1.1567550

An interesting quote in that article;

Secular agenda
She said there was a risk that secularising schools would have a “detrimental effect on parish communities” and that “in pursuing his own secular agenda the Minister is at risk of throwing the baby out with the bathwater and dismantling a system that has placed the school at the core of the parish community.” Malahide rector Rev Norman Gamble described spending cuts in education as “part of a campaign to remove the churches from the education system and push us to the fringe.
“Yet 80 per cent to 90 per cent of people in our own country identify with a Christian denomination of some sort”.

Religiosity of the population is much higher in the USA than in Europe, even Ireland, yet they maintain a strict separation between church and state. Publicly funded schools are secular. Minority religions thrive.
Jews have thrived there, but have been almost wiped out in Ireland. A jewish child can attend school in the USA without constantly receiving the subliminal message that he is in the "wrong" religion.

If minority religions want to survive in a modern democracy, Secularism is the answer, not Sectarianism.

USA and France are secular Republics where minority religions can go about their business in peace. Iran is an Islamic Republic, where it is difficult for a minority religion to survive.
Ireland would appear to be a Multi-denominational Republic. If your religion reaches a certain (unspecified) critical mass or status, you receive state support.

Sierra 117

magicbastarder wrote: »

similar in the gay marriage thread - the forum list claims 4,065 posts, but there are currently 3,851 posts in the thread.

I think the forum list is counting posts that were deleted while the thread itself isn't.

robindch

magicbastarder wrote: »

according to the forum list, this thread has 325 posts - but the latest is 320? does the forum list count posts which may have been deleted?

Yes - the count on the front page includes deleted posts (of which there are currently five), but the post number within the thread (the bit after the '#') doesn't.

robindch

expectationlost wrote: »

can anyone follow what this guy was on about [...]

I read a few news items about the spat, but while I'm much better informed about it, I can't honestly say I'm any the wiser.

Cabaal

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/1023/482131-esri-school/

Religious-run secondary schools in Ireland are more likely to receive voluntary contributions from parents and the level of payment they receive is also likely to be higher than in the case of non-religious schools.

expectationlost

to bring it back to school patronage http://www.irishtimes.com/debate/letters/polyester-protestants-and-sectarianism-1.1571673?page=3

Sir, – Congratulations to Archbishop Michael Jackson in highlighting sectarianism among some Protestants.
However, it seems obvious to me that this is an inevitable consequence of our denominational school system. If in two houses, the children of one go to a Catholic school, and their next door neighbours go to a Protestant one (with parents usually having to choose one or the other, whether they believe in the differences or not), then this emphasises a purposely engineered divide. It is only a small step for some families to attain the mindset that “we” are different (and better) than “them”.
The much-trumpeted Catholic or Protestant “ethos” has clearly not served us well. While the Catholic church has suffered very bad publicity recently, I expect this is because the great majority of people actually or nominally adhere to it ­ and have little choice.
My experience is that people who have opted out of a denominational affiliation retain at least as good an “ethos” as those remaining. Of course parents should be able to arrange religious instruction for their children if they so wish. But this should be provided outside school hours, and there should be no denominational schools.
I was one of a small group which supported the redoubtable Dr Michael Johnston, who was the man responsible, under the then title “Dalkey School Project’, for the setting up of what has become “Educate Together”. Progress has been impressive since, but it is a slow business.
If both Dublin archbishops could stop championing “their” schools, and allow a faster development of “schools for all”, this would surely discourage the sectarianism which Archbishop Jackson has highlighted, and which I also have observed. ­– Yours, etc,
CHARLES MOLLAN,
Newtownpark Avenue,
Blackrock, Co Dublin.

expectationlost

Cabaal wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/1023/482131-esri-school/

Drawing on international comparisons, the report concludes that any additional funding provided by the State may have to be matched by a ceding of control on the part of trusts on issues such as the appointment of teachers or school admission policies.

as it should be

expectationlost

couple of articles from conor ryan in the irish examiner who's been doggedly following the redress issue

the government had been trying to get schools in lieu of cash but the orders still don't except that they should pay 50% of compensation
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/order-told-state-to-scrap-vow-on-abuse-redress-248378.html

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/order-told-state-to-scrap-vow-on-abuse-redress-248378.html

robindch

Irish Examiner wrote:

Following meetings with the department, the order wrote a letter making it clear its voluntary contribution in response to the Ryan Report “was not a matter for negotiation”. It said it would not participate in any attempt by the State to revalue its post-2009 offer and it wanted the Programme for Government changed.

“We are not willing to enter negotiations with Government towards its fulfilment of school infrastructure which it made in its Programme for Government for the transfer of school infrastructure,” the order wrote.

In a memo to Mr Quinn, department officials said the compromised proposal, to transfer school sites without changing control, had been put to the 18 orders. Fifteen did not respond and the three that did express an interest only owned 16 schools between them.

I'd put their collective silence down as breath-takingly arrogant, except that they seem to be getting away with it.

kylith

Time to start rounding them up for debtor's jail, imo.

PopePalpatine

kylith wrote: »

Time to start rounding them up for debtor's jail, imo.

Nah, send in CAB.

expectationlost

Official of Irish Bishops' Conference on What Makes a School Catholic
http://t.co/AuXQMPS9CM

Here are notes from an address given by Monsignor Jim Cassin, executive secretary to the Commission for Catholic Education and Formation of the Irish Episcopal Conference.

This address was delivered Nov. 15 to the Catholic Principals Association in Cookstown, Co Tyrone


1. The belief that the human person is made in the image of God
2. The belief that we meet God in the ‘bits and pieces’ of everyday life
3. The belief that we are saved as a community.
4. The fact that we belong to a tradition.
5. The fact that we value knowledge.

five practical applications:
1. For the school it is urgent to focus on deepening young people’s relationship with Jesus
2. ...young people are capable of handing on the faith
3. Parents have a critical role
4. ...catechesis of young people through university
5. The Church and schools need to find ways of vocational recruitment and discernment.

expectationlost

dublin parish shapefiles and country diocese here from the cso http://www.cso.ie/en/census/census2011boundaryfiles/ along with stats to go in them

Pherekydes

five practical applications:
1. For the school it is urgent to focus on deepening young people’s relationship with Jesus

Before they reach maturity and begin thinking for themselves.

2. ...young people are capable of handing on the faith

If they're brainwashed deeply enough.

3. Parents have a critical role

In carrying on the brainwashing. This is the part [of a parent] I signally failed at.

4. ...catechesis of young people through university

Continue the brainwashing.

5. The Church and schools need to find ways of vocational recruitment and discernment.

Because we really need more brainwashers.

expectationlost

Inclusive schools the way forward, writes Quinn http://www.irishexaminer.com/analysis/inclusive-schools-the-way-forward-writes-quinn-250078.html

ruairi qiunn op ed in the irish examiner

However, I am also conscious that while providing a choice of schools may be practicable in urban areas; in many parts of the country geography and distance mean there is often only one school to serve the entire community. There are about 1,700 of these primary schools. This means that they need to cater for the full range of traditions, religions, and beliefs in the local communities which they serve.

One of the challenges for these schools is to strike the right balance to ensure that the religious beliefs of all children in the locality are respected.

Therefore, the forum also looked at promoting greater inclusiveness in all schools,

do rural communities not deserve to get as much freedom from religion as others , they might even need it ore then we city dwellers do

Sarky

expectationlost wrote: »

Inclusive schools the way forward, writes Quinn http://www.irishexaminer.com/analysis/inclusive-schools-the-way-forward-writes-quinn-250078.html

Jesus, for an instant I thought you meant David Quinn, and was sure the End Times had come.

recedite

Garrett Fitzgerald has a new book out ??
I presume there was a ghost writer involved....

freedominacup

The thing that's bugging me most about this survey(?) of parents views is that it's only concerned with the most unimportant subject in the curriculum. There's no danger we're going to be asked about the teaching of Irish or foreign languages, history, even sphe. No we get asked about religion:rolleyes:.

My kids attend a small rural school with quite a few different (mainly christian) religions or none amongst the families attending. I don't hear too many complaints and my kids are friendly with some of the kids from non-catholic backgrounds and their parents would be in my kitchen or vise versa fairly regularly. One concession that should be made in schools like this one is for religion class/religious instruction to be held as the last lesson of the day which would facilitate anyone wanting to opt out to take their kids home a bit earlier. It would certainly be interesting to see what sort of participation rates there would be in that class if the option to leave was there.

Hotblack Desiato

expectationlost wrote: »

Inclusive schools the way forward, writes Quinn http://www.irishexaminer.com/analysis/inclusive-schools-the-way-forward-writes-quinn-250078.html

Bah.

However, I am also conscious that while providing a choice of schools may be practicable in urban areas

Not if you live in a long established suburb with a stable rather than growing population - there will be no new schools built here. There are TWO gaelscoils in the area so that skims off a lot of potential ET pupils. There are FIVE RCC schools. The only 'choice' is a small CoI school, which is excellent, but still permeated by a religious ethos throughout the school day.

There is NO choice at all at second level - all schools are RCC patronage.

This myth that most, or even many, people in urban areas have a choice of avoiding religious indoctrination for their kids, really boils my wee.

Hotblack Desiato

freedominacup wrote: »

The thing that's bugging me most about this survey(?) of parents views is that it's only concerned with the most unimportant subject in the curriculum. There's no danger we're going to be asked about the teaching of Irish or foreign languages, history, even sphe. No we get asked about religion:rolleyes:.

Well you're lucky if you get asked at all, most parents aren't going to be. Quinn is hastening towards inclusive education as slowly as possible.

Religion is not important at school?
It's the only subject which is used to segregate kids (except gaelscoils!)
It's the only subject which can get a teacher fired due to whether they live their private life according to a disputed interpretation of a disputed translation of a 2000 year old book.
It's the only subject (except gaelscoils, again ) which is used to favour certain groups of kids over others and give them extra funding, smaller pupil teacher ratios, free buses, even grants for boarding, because they can't reasonably be expected to go to the same school as other kids :rolleyes:
It's the only subject, apart from English (Irish in gaelscoils) which gets to permeate the entire school day.

One concession that should be made in schools like this one is for religion class/religious instruction to be held as the last lesson of the day which would facilitate anyone wanting to opt out to take their kids home a bit earlier. It would certainly be interesting to see what sort of participation rates there would be in that class if the option to leave was there.

That's what the national school system was supposed to be like, 150 years ago, until the RCC and presbyterians hijacked it towards their own sectarian ends.

expectationlost

ninja900 wrote: »

Bah.



Not if you live in a long established suburb with a stable rather than growing population - there will be no new schools built here. There are TWO gaelscoils in the area so that skims off a lot of potential ET pupils. There are FIVE RCC schools. The only 'choice' is a small CoI school, which is excellent, but still permeated by a religious ethos throughout the school day.

There is NO choice at all at second level - all schools are RCC patronage.

This myth that most, or even many, people in urban areas have a choice of avoiding religious indoctrination for their kids, really boils my wee.

well he said that he would work towards actual choice in urban areas but wouldn't try in rural areas, it would just be catholic church being tolerant.

Brian Shanahan

freedominacup wrote: »

The thing that's bugging me most about this survey(?) of parents views is that it's only concerned with the most unimportant subject in the curriculum. There's no danger we're going to be asked about the teaching of Irish or foreign languages, history, even sphe. No we get asked about religion:rolleyes:.

Actually religious indoctrination is the most important issue in modern Irish education. Because the religious "teaching" the vast majority of young kids are subjected to is, "accept god because a 2,500 year old book which got everything else wrong says he's real, and because if an old book written by a committee of older men says its real, then it must be. Ignore all the evidence there is out there, and stifle your curiosity because that will all lead you away from god."

That is the worst possible thing anybody could teach to their children, to accept something simply because it is written, and to stifle their curiosity and urge to learn. And that kind of lesson spreads to all areas of education.

Hotblack Desiato

expectationlost wrote: »

in rural areas, it would just be catholic church being tolerant.

That'd be a first.

freedominacup

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

Actually religious indoctrination is the most important issue in modern Irish education. Because the religious "teaching" the vast majority of young kids are subjected to is, "accept god because a 2,500 year old book which got everything else wrong says he's real, and because if an old book written by a committee of older men says its real, then it must be. Ignore all the evidence there is out there, and stifle your curiosity because that will all lead you away from god."

How is that now? The vast majority of young kids are in a class where at least some of the other children are not participating in religion class. They'd have to be pretty obtuse to have their curiosity stifled to the extent that they don't wonder why Emma or Darren or whoever doesn't seem to be suffering too many ill-effects from doing their homework or reading whatever Darren Shan book they're currently on during religion class.

freedominacup

ninja900 wrote: »

Well you're lucky if you get asked at all, most parents aren't going to be. Quinn is hastening towards inclusive education as slowly as possible.

Religion is not important at school?
It's the only subject which is used to segregate kids (except gaelscoils!)
How does this segregation manifest itself?

It's the only subject which can get a teacher fired due to whether they live their private life according to a disputed interpretation of a disputed translation of a 2000 year old book.
When was the last teacher fired over their private life?

It's the only subject (except gaelscoils, again ) which is used to favour certain groups of kids over others and give them extra funding, smaller pupil teacher ratios, free buses, even grants for boarding, because they can't reasonably be expected to go to the same school as other kids :rolleyes:
It's the only subject, apart from English (Irish in gaelscoils) which gets to permeate the entire school day.
A bit of a double standard at play here. There are countless threads around the subject of religion in schools but none around the favouritism shown towards gaelscoils and the manner in which this favouritism disadvantages pupils in mainstream schools. Why is that?

The unwillingness to change the school patronage system could at least be explained to some degree by inertia, at least there wasn't a concious wilful decision taken to disadvantage one group of students in favour of another, certainly in the past 50 years as there has been on numerous occasions in relation to the funding of gaelscoils.



That's what the national school system was supposed to be like, 150 years ago, until the RCC and presbyterians hijacked it towards their own sectarian ends.
If only all hijackings had such benign outcomes. For all of the faults they had they were the only schools available to the vast majority of people.

.

Hotblack Desiato

The segregation manifests itself in a sectarian education system which is not equally tolerant and welcoming of all children, and it's wasteful of resources.

Many teachers have to lie about their religious beliefs to gain employment, this form of discrimination is explicitly legal. Gay teachers in particular live in fear in catholic schools. At least one teacher was fired in the 80s for becoming pregnant.

I disagree with the favouritism shown towards gaelscoils but that's not relevant to this thread or indeed forum.

CoI schools have been (until very recently) given extra state funding. You can get a free school bus or a grant towards boarding purely on religious grounds.

150 years of sectarianism and religious conflict, brainwashing of the populace at taxpayer expense, and forced religious indoctrination is far from a benign outcome as far as I'm concerned.