School patronage

Pherekydes

robindch wrote: »

And Twitter steps in, apparently for an alleged privacy breach by Ms O'Doherty.

I reported one of her tweets. Can I get take the credit? :pac:

smacl

Pherekydes wrote: »

I reported one of her tweets. Can I get take the credit? :pac:

One gold star and a homework pass for the day, go to the top of the class!

Hotblack Desiato

Odhinn wrote: »

These are the folk of the "mental reservation".

Is that some place they inhabit?

Pherekydes

smacl wrote: »

One gold star and a homework pass for the day, go to the top of the class!

I haven't had a gold star since 1966.

robindch

Fixed

robindch

Pherekydes wrote: »

I reported one of her tweets. Can I get take the credit?

More work needed though - twitter has just unclogged the shitshow again, though this time, with around 5,000 fewer followers.

Pherekydes

robindch wrote: »

More work needed though - twitter has just unclogged the shitshow again, though this time, with around 5,000 fewer followers.

I find that with sewers. You unclog it in one place and it just clogs up somewhere else, and eventually it backs right up again.

the culture of deference

smacl wrote: »

Being religious does not imply being honest or trustworthy.

Being religious means you cannot tell reality from fantasy.





The historical information is out there for everyone to read. It is all made up.

robindch

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

It's about bloody time ET did something. I read on Twitter from one of the parents campaigning that parents have been complaining about this to ET for several years now and ET just referred them back to principal/BOM.

Here's a full account of the gyrations out at Castleknock:

https://www.teachdontpreach.ie/2019/06/castleknock-et/

Hotblack Desiato

Even worse than what I'd heard so far.

That school board is accountable to precisely no-one, what possible right do they have to continue in office? Silence from the minister is deafening.

AndrewJRenko

robindch wrote: »

Here's a full account of the gyrations out at Castleknock:

https://www.teachdontpreach.ie/2019/06/castleknock-et/

While I'd agree with the achievement of the parents, they seem to have a misunderstanding about school board minutes. Board minutes are confidential to board members and are not published. The Board can produce an 'agreed report' for the wider community.

AndrewJRenko

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Even worse than what I'd heard so far.

That school board is accountable to precisely no-one, what possible right do they have to continue in office? Silence from the minister is deafening.

Every school board is accountable to precisely no-one. The Minister does have a legal right to remove the Board, but that would obviously be a very serious step.

smacl

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Every school board is accountable to precisely no-one. The Minister does have a legal right to remove the Board, but that would obviously be a very serious step.

So how would you suggest the problem be resolved? Can the staff and parents for example state that they've no confidence in the board and seek to have it dissolved on that basis?

lazygal

smacl wrote: »

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Every school board is accountable to precisely no-one. The Minister does have a legal right to remove the Board, but that would obviously be a very serious step.

So how would you suggest the problem be resolved? Can the staff and parents for example state that they've no confidence in the board and seek to have it dissolved on that basis?

No. Boards of Management are practically untouchable. I saw similar in a local school. The board didn't care what parents said. Withdrawing children and moving school led to a significant decline in numbers.

smacl

lazygal wrote: »

No. Boards of Management are practically untouchable. I saw similar in a local school. The board didn't care what parents said. Withdrawing children and moving school led to a significant decline in numbers.

Looking at the patronage manual p19 the relevant bit is as follows

In the event of serious deficiencies in the work of a Board of Management, the patron may apply to the Minister for permission to either remove a member of the Board or to dissolve it. These powers are detailed in Section 16 and 19 of the Education Act. In the case of a dissolution, such an application will involve the appointment of a manager by the patron to manage the school until a new Board can be established.

Boards also have a fixed term, but from what I can gather that changes from school to school. AFAIK it is four years in the school my daughter attends, no idea what the craic is with Castleknock. Like many minor positions of power, you could argue that wanting to be a member of the board suggests you're not suitable. We certainly ended up with a few 'odd' ones in our school.

lazygal

The key word being 'may'. No patron is obliged to do so. I see no move from the ET patron body to move to apply to the Minister.

AndrewJRenko

smacl wrote: »

So how would you suggest the problem be resolved? Can the staff and parents for example state that they've no confidence in the board and seek to have it dissolved on that basis?

Timing is in their favour. New boards will be appointed in November.

So the parents need to make sure that the two parent nominees elected are in agreement about the need for change. The staff need to ensure that the elected staff nominee is in agreement with the need for change. The patron body Educate Together needs to ensure that the Chairperson is in agreement with the need for change. That group can then appoint the two Community nominees, finding two people who are in agreement with the need for change.

So that's the Board sorted. Now they need to find a way to turn the Principal's way of thinking around. That's the tough bit.

Hotblack Desiato

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Every school board is accountable to precisely no-one.

They're supposed to be accountable to the patron body, but ET were asleep at the switch for years and ignored the complaints of parents about the board.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/schools-refusing-tuition-for-students-who-opt-out-of-religion-1.3973478


State secondary schools are refusing to implement a directive which requires them to provide students who opt out of religious instruction with access to another subject.

Last year, the Department of Education issued a circular requiring State schools to timetable alternative tuition throughout the school year for students who opt out of religious instruction.

This was aimed at ending the practice of assuming that pupils are predominately Catholic and requiring non-religious or minority faith students to do homework during religious instruction.

The circular applies to State-run schools, such as community schools or those run by Education and Training Boards (ETBs), which account for about half of secondary schools or 160,000 pupils.

Voluntary secondary schools, typically run or owned by religious organisations, are not affected by the circular.

However, new documents show most State schools are not implementing the circular on the basis that they do no have resources to provide alternative tuition.

ETB schools, for example, were recently directed by their umbrella body to “maintain the status-quo in relation to the provision of religious education and opting-out arrangements”.

A spokesman for the department has confirmed that the circular, issued in October last year, remains in place and schools are required to follow it.

The campaign group Atheist Ireland said the failure of State schools to implement these measures means non-religious students are being discriminated against.

“The practical application of maintaining the status quo means students who exercise their constitutional and human right not to attend religious teaching cannot access another optional subject,” said Jane Donnelly of Atheist Ireland.

Nessa White, general secretary of Education and Training Boards Ireland, confirmed that the umbrella body’s advice to schools has been to maintain the “status quo” in relation to allowing students to opt out of religious instruction.

“Religious education is open to all students regardless of their religion or world view. In some instances, parents or students over the age of 18 wish to opt out of religious education. This is fully permitted in ETB schools.

“However, our schools have not been provided with any additional resources to provide alternative classes to students who opt out. Our schools cater for these students to the best of their ability with the resources currently available to them.”

Ms White insisted that ETB schools are “multidenominational and cater for all students regardless of their religious or non-religious beliefs”.

Many community schools are also not implementing the circular, which also requires schools to proactively establish the wishes of parents in relation to opting out of religious worship or instruction.

The circular states this should be integrated with the school’s processes for establishing subject choices generally.

“Past practice of assuming that the pupil body is predominately Catholic and arranging religious instruction accordingly is no longer an appropriate approach,” the circular states.

“ In a changing context the constitutional right not to attend religious instruction must be given effect through changed practices.”

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/schools-and-religion-non-believers-treated-like-second-class-citizens-1.3973464


Helen O’Shea’s daughter is used to doing her homework at the back of the classroom during religious education.

As an atheist parent, she says it is the price pupils pay in an education system which is still dominated by religion.

“There’s an assumption that everyone is okay with religious instruction or a priest coming into the classroom . . . and if you’re not, you’re relegated to the back of the class and treated like a second-class citizen.”

So she was encouraged when the Department of Education published a circular last year which instructed State-run secondary schools to offer alternative subject choices to students who did not wish to study religion.

In the mostly conservative world of education, this was a game-changer.

It stated that the past practice of assuming that pupils were predominantly Catholic and arranging religious instruction accordingly was no longer appropriate.

Instead, parents would have to be polled on whether they wanted their children to study religion or, significantly, a different, timetabled subject.

The circular applied only to State-run schools, which account for about half of secondary schools.

These are run by local Education and Training Boards (ETBs) and community schools, which are run jointly by ETBs and the Catholic Church.

Voluntary secondary schools, typically run or owned by religious organisations, were not affected by the circular.

“I was delighted,” says O’Shea, whose daughter attends a community school in Ardee, Co Louth.

“I never baptised my daughters and went out of my way to send them to an Educate Together primary school . . . But religion has a way of encroaching into your life, especially in the education system.”

The department’s move, however, was fiercely opposed by groups such as the Catholic Church, Education and Training Boards and the Teachers’ Union of Ireland.

Documents obtained by The Irish Times last year show Catholic bishops warned the department that students who would receive tuition in an exam subject instead of religion would receive an unfair advantage.

(Instead, they proposed that such students who opted out of religion should be offered a course in “religious heritage and values as well as ethics”).

Education and Training Boards complained of having to offer an alternative subject without being given additional resources to do so.

Religion teachers were also highly critical and insisted the circular was leading to widespread confusion by not clarifying the difference between “religious instruction” and “religious education”.

While it said “religious instruction” related to the teaching of a particular religion for pupils of that faith, “religious education” was a much wider subject open to all pupils, regardless of their belief.

In October last year, in the face of this opposition, the department issued a “clarification” of its circular which watered down much of the meaning of the original.

In a significant reversal, it said the State-approved curriculum on religious education did not contain any element of “religious instruction, formation, indoctrination or worship”.

As a result, opting out of the subject and being timetabled for an alternative subject “does not arise”.

However, the revised circular still included some significant changes.

It said students who opted out of religious instruction (such as worship or faith-specific teaching) should be timetabled for alternative subjects, rather than doing homework at the back of class.

It also said schools should proactively establish the wishes of parents in relation to opting out of religious worship or instruction.

This should be integrated with the school’s processes for establishing subject choices generally.

New documents, however, show most State schools are ignoring this revised circular.

ETB schools, for example, have been recently directed by their umbrella body to “maintain the status quo in relation to the provision of religious education and opting-out arrangements”.

The evidence on the ground in many community schools, similarly, is that the latest circular is not being implemented.

Sources in these schools argue that the lack of funding to provide for additional teaching for non-religious students is a key obstacle.

However, schools are required to follow procedures set down in department circular letters.

In a statement, a Department of Education spokesman confirmed that the circular applied to all “community and ETB post-primary schools”.

Meanwhile, parents such as Helen O’Shea remain as frustrated as ever over what she sees as the violation of non-religious students’ rights and those of their parents.

“Schools shouldn’t be allowed to cherry-pick what suits them when it comes to religion . . . It shouldn’t be so hard to uphold a child’s constitutional right to drop out of religion.”

Odhinn

Every one is progress.

A small south Kerry primary school is among three rural schools to make history by becoming the first to transfer from Catholic to multi-denominational patronage.
Scoil an Ghleanna, which has 14 pupils, will reopen on Thursday as a State-run Community National School.
While the Catholic Church has previously transferred a small number of empty school buildings to multi-denominational patronage under lease arrangements, this is the first time that an existing Catholic school will have made a 'live' transfer to multi-denominational status.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2019/0827/1071103-patronage/

Hotblack Desiato

I wonder are the Steiner schools mentioned keeping their nutty ideology?

expectationlost

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

I wonder are the Steiner schools mentioned keeping their nutty ideology?

3 Steiner schools in Clare changnig patronage, good but whats going on there https://www.rte.ie/news/2019/0827/1071103-patronage/

Three other Steiner schools – Mol an Oige, Co Clare; Galway CNS; and Raheen Wood, Co Clare – that were already multi-denominational have been chosen to become Community National Schools (CNS).

I now don't know what that means ?https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/four-religious-run-schools-switching-to-multi-denominational-model-1.3998803 no mention on their websites about it https://www.lifeways.ie

Two County Clare Steiner National Schools to Become Community National Schools Under Patronage of the Authority https://lcetb.ie/two-county-clare-steiner-national-schools-to-become-community-national-schools-under-patronage-of-the-authority/

Under the new patronage arrangement the Steiner pedagogy in both schools will be maintained.

ffs

note none of these 3/4 fours schools tranferring patronage are going to Educate Together, it must be to a patron that will continue the woo

lazygal

Steiner schools are rooted in woo and some very questionable ideology.

Odhinn

Onionesque in terms of accuracy.

WATERFORD harridan Deirdre Malley has spent the morning in floods of tears as she attempted to come to terms with her son’s decision to send his kids to a local Educate Together, instead of a “normal Catholic national school”.




Malley, 78, had managed to hold it together with the absolute minimum amount of passive aggressiveness throughout the summer after her son David and his sly, trouble-making protestant wife, initially told her that they would be sending their twin girls to Knockamassan Educate Together, believing that they would come to their senses and send the kids to St. Colmfearshagh of the Bleeding Aorta NS, which they were in the catchment area for and where ‘there were places readily available for fucks sake’.

http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2018/08/29/local-grandmother-heartbroken-after-grandkids-start-at-educate-together/?fbclid=IwAR0u4LESbxtz4YgKl7h0O47iek1BtCk12fNbMVcxRbBsFT5f3n79Y9RDeUE

Hotblack Desiato

How the hell Steiner schools ever managed to get established here beats me. I think most parents in the areas concerned simply had no clue as to what they were really like.

Meanwhile, overwhelming demand for ETs nationally but not one divestment to ET.

Unless and until we see divestment of stable, successful, not on their last legs, schools to woo-free ethos then I'm going to remain entirely sceptical of this process.

Hotblack Desiato

Correction for the info of the 'harridan' on WWN - up to half of the kids in ETs do get communion

There isn't a :rolleyes: big enough for that, though...

Mark Hamill

lazygal wrote: »

Steiner schools are rooted in woo and some very questionable ideology.

What are steiner schools?

smacl

Mark Hamill wrote: »

What are steiner schools?

This gives some idea, http://www.teach-nology.com/teachers/methods/waldorf/ but basically very different to conventional schooling with primary focus on personal and social development over academics. The main problem with it is that it tends to be incompatible with conventional teaching if and when the child moves to a different school, e.g. from the link above

Is it really a good idea to forgo academic education, like reading, until the second grade? Waldorf educators believe so. Instead of teaching children to read when they are five or six years old, instead, teachers tell fairy tells and read stories to children. This encourages oral mastery before reading education begins. In the Waldorf curriculum, writing is taught before reading. The alphabet is explored as a way to communicate with others through pictures. This allows writing to evolve out of the art and doodles of children, instead of from their ability to read and reproduce written content.

Hotblack Desiato

That article sounds a bit biased to me - especially describing Steiner as a "scientist".

I was going to say that Steiner's educational stuff reminded me of biodynamics woo, but he was behind that as well. It's basically agricultural astrology.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Steiner#Biodynamic_agriculture

Wikipedia wrote:

Steiner also suggested timing such agricultural activities as sowing, weeding, and harvesting to utilize the influences on plant growth of the moon and planets; and the application of natural materials prepared in specific ways to the soil, compost, and crops, with the intention of engaging non-physical beings and elemental forces. He taught that mushrooms were "very harmful" because "they contain hindering lunar forces, and everything that arose on the old Moon signifies rigidification." He encouraged his listeners to verify his suggestions empirically, as he had not yet done.

But yeah, a scientist :pac:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldorf_education

Wikipedia wrote:

Many of Steiner's ideas influenced the pedagogy of the original Waldorf school and still play a central role in modern Waldorf classrooms. (reincarnation, karma, the existence of gnomes, eurythmy)
...

The structure of Waldorf education follows a theory of childhood development devised by Rudolf Steiner, utilizing three distinct learning strategies for each of three distinct developmental stages. These stages each last approximately seven years, as Steiner believed human beings develop in seven-year-long spiritual cycles. He also believed each stage was imbued with a different "sphere" - the Moon (0-7 years old), Mercury (7-14 years old), and Venus (14-21 years old).
...

One study conducted by California State University at Sacramento researches outlined numerous theories and ideas prevalent throughout Waldorf curricula that were patently pseudoscientific and steeped in magical thinking. These included the idea that animals evolved from humans, that human spirits are physically incarnated into "soul qualities that manifested themselves into various animal forms," that the current geological formations on Earth have evolved through so-called "Lemurian" and "Atlantiean" epochs, and that the four kingdoms of nature are "mineral, plant, animal, and man." All of these are directly contradicted by mainstream scientific knowledge and have no basis in any form of conventional scientific study.
...

In 2008, Stockholm University terminated its Waldorf teacher training courses. In a statement the university said "the courses did not encompass sufficient subject theory and a large part of the subject theory that is included is not founded on any scientific base." The dean, Stefan Nordlund, stated "the syllabus contains literature which conveys scientific inaccuracies that are worse than woolly; they are downright dangerous."
...

In states where nonmedical vaccine exemption is legal – Waldorf schools were reported to have a high rate of vaccine exemption within their student populations. A 2010 report by the UK Government said that Steiner schools should be considered "high risk populations" and "unvaccinated communities" with respect to children's risks of catching measles and contributing to outbreaks.
...

Rudolf Steiner founded the first Waldorf school several years before vaccinations for tetanus, diphtheria, and whooping cough were invented. After such vaccinations became widespread in Europe, Steiner opposed their use in several contexts, writing that vaccination could "impede spiritual development" and lead to a loss of “any urge for a spiritual life." Steiner also thought that these effects would carry over into subsequent reincarnations of the vaccinated person.

The Association of Waldorf Schools of North America released the following in a statement in 2019:

The Association of Waldorf Schools of North America wishes to state unequivocally that our educational objectives do not include avoidance of, or resistance to, childhood immunization. The health, safety, and wellbeing of children are our forefront concerns.
...

Racist attitudes and behaviour have been reported in particular Waldorf schools, including teachers reportedly expressing a view that individuals reincarnate through various races. The BBC and the Independent have both reported that Steiner believed in a hierarchy of races, with the white race at the top, and associated intelligence with having blonde hair and blue eyes.

The American organization for Waldorf schools (AWSNA) has directly rejected the racism purported to exist in the above-mentioned schools, saying that "racist or discriminatory tendencies are not tolerated in Waldorf schools or Waldorf teacher training institutes."

I wonder where the Steiner teachers here are being trained? Are they really expected to believe in all the guff surrounding it?