School patronage

smacl

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Absolutely nothing, for those parents who want that form of education for their children.

For those parents who don’t want that form of education for their children, they currently have that choice too.

Firstly, hope your over the worst of your infection.

With respect to choice, close on half of those polled in the 2011 Red-C poll preferred that religion be taught in school out of normal hours. Given declining religiosity in this country in the intervening years, I would suggest that this is currently the majority position, yet most people are not given this choice. I think at this stage, the people should be asked exactly what shape they'd like education to take going forward, including pros and cons of various solutions. One thing that seems abundantly obvious is that what we have now is not what people want and the status quo should not stand. Whether we prefer a one size fits all model, with its economies of scale, reduction in travel requirements and potential for better facilities and broader subject choices, or a diverse mix of smaller schools meeting specific religious preferences which comprise the former, should be a matter for debate.

Hotblack Desiato

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Absolutely nothing, for those parents who want that form of education for their children.

For those parents who don’t want that form of education for their children, they currently have that choice too.

The latter violates the human rights of parents, pupils and teachers who are not catholics, especially given that 90% of primary schools are of catholic ethos.

Also it appears that proponents of traditionalist catholic education are now promoting a false "diversity" as their new tactic. Kick out all the prods, muslims, atheists etc. into their own schools, so that catholic schools can become ever more fundamentalist. I regard this as a sinister development. "Diversity" as a code-word for segregation and sectarianism is exactly the direction we should not be going in as a society.

Also establishing a multiplicity of school types leads to greater costs (more school buildings and principals), poorer facilities and lesser subject choice, greater school commuting distances and a larger carbon footprint.

If everyone just goes to their local school then the proportion of pupils who walk there will increase, which is better for their health as well as everything else.

If every teacher can just teach in their local school no matter what religion they happen to be or not be, then their commutes become shorter too.


There are many good arguments for diversity within schools (and there are many RC schools who emphasise how diverse they are - which is good - it's the failure to equally respect non-RC religious viewpoints which is wrong.)

Diversity of schools has a number of very serious drawbacks.

Anteayer

I'd have to say my own experience of Catholic school in Ireland would inform my views on this and it really wasn't good.

I was most definitely discriminated against and bullied by staff. Including being threatened with nonsense like "if you don't go to mass you won't be allowed into secondary school and you'll get no education". "You can go to the library with the rest of the heathens".

I remember basically doing absolutely nothing in 6th class due to confirmation preparation that seemed to go on almost 90% of the day for months. We had a particularly zealous teacher.

All the music I did in primary school was religious. I don't remember doing anything other than hymns and I found some of them actually confusing and weird and taught without explanation: Suffer Little Children wasn't explained and just seemed sinister to me.

Most of the art we did was also religious. Lots of colouring in religious scenes, making stained glass (which had to have a religious theme) by drawing on paper and then treating it with oil, making big posters about religious topics etc etc and that's not including the very heavily religious stuff for Easter, Christmas, St Patrick's Day, St Brigit's Day etc.

We started the day with prayers. We had prayers before "little break" and lunch and we finished the day with the Our Father.

At one stage the principal had the Angulus bells played automatically over the intercom on a daily basis.

Then there were fairly regular visits by priests and the odd nun who'd come in basically to preach about some topic or other.

My experience of it was that it very much depended on who your teacher was. You could have someone who took a more open minded approach or, you could have an ultra type who spent most of the day on these topics.

Then in secondary school we often had prayers between every class. It depended on who the teacher was but one or two used to walk in and start a maths class or an Irish class with prayers. So depending on who you had on any given day, you could have had to say the Our Father up to 6 times a day.

I tried opting out of this and was told to "cop on" or generally told I'd no choice in the matter.

I declined to go to a school mass and I was given 3 days detention.

Freedom of conscience?!

State funded Catholic boot camp is more accurate.

There were also no real choices. ET secondary didn't exist then and geographically and practically ET primary was impractical.

I quite honestly don't see it being reformed. Ireland has absolutely zero ability to see what's wrong with this setup and is brainwashed into being completely blind to how out of step with the rest of the developed world the education systems is.

We've a diversifying country and it's just going to lead to social exclusion, ghettoisation and sectarianism.
The only reason we didn't have those issues is that historically the Republic was a highly conservative monoculture. Those who weren't Catholic were treated as special cases and vaguely accommodated (put up with) but very much made feel they were outsiders.

It's basically a policy of educational apartheid based on notions of sectarianism that we aren't even able to call out because they're so deeply culturally embedded.

So I'm sorry to say but I've absolutely zero confidence in the Irish state or it's sheep like electorate to ever manage to sort this out. It'll just drift on until it becomes a real social disaster and then we'll be wringing our hands wondering why "somebody" didn't do something to address educational sectarianism decades ago.

I've basically given up on it though. I think it's just one of those public policies that will drift on, unreformed and much like the inability to reform health services. It will just cause significant problems and see lots of commentary but, because of ingrained institutional culture, it won't change.

Even when it comes to a general election, I don't know which party I could vote for who would actually press for reform. They all seem equally useless.

smacl

Anteayer wrote: »

It's basically a policy of educational apartheid based on notions of sectarianism that we aren't even able to call out because they're so deeply culturally embedded.

Well said.

Nobelium

Critical thinking should be taught in schools, as it helps identify and examine not just any false claims about religion but also policy, politics and other ideologies as well . . . or in the future we could be back to having similar problems with other ideologies. In fact if they fail to bring in schooling in critical thinking methods, either intentionally or unintentionally . . . . it's not a good sign.

tretorn

My children went to a Catholic primary school and a Protestant secondary one.

Both were fantastic schools and I had no problem with the Catholic priest attending school events or the Deacon either. The nicest parts of my childrens education were the preparation for First communion with their classmates, I remember the excitement of this fondly. I remember the school nativity play, the shepherds, the lambs, Mary and Joseph etc and then the play in the packed church at mass on Xmas Eve. The children sang in the choir, they had practiced in the school and the local catholic community attended packing the church.


Im not sure what athiests do at this time, I hope they have their own traditions, Im not too bothered but I am damned if they were going to interfere with mine. I can see where the parents of North Dublin are coming from, I wouldnt have wanted much changed in my school either and nothing has changed in the last twenty years, Irish traditions are important.

smacl

tretorn wrote: »

Im not sure what athiests do at this time, I hope they have their own traditions, Im not too bothered but I am damned if they were going to interfere with mine. I can see where the parents of North Dublin are coming from, I wouldnt have wanted much changed in my school either and nothing has changed in the last twenty years, Irish traditions are important.

I'm not too sure what Christians do at this time, nor do I really care, so long as they don't try to inflict their beliefs and religious traditions on my kids. As per my previous post, in the last survey carried out, about half the parents preferred that any religious instruction was carried out after school hours. While I don't doubt that you love dressing your kids up in little suits or faux wedding dresses and giving them huge wads of cash to make sure they love communion, there are a lot of parents that want no part of that tradition. What exactly are you teaching them, that you can buy love? That Jesus will fund a new XBox? If you took the money aspect out of it, do you seriously think kids would still be willing participants? It is another wonderful con by the church in bribing the next generation to join the ranks while getting the cash strapped parents to fund it. Thanks, but no thanks.

tretorn

What traditions do you celebrate in your community, how do you mark rites of passage for your children.

Most religions mark chapters of their children’s lives with traditional coming together of families, why do you need to be so offensive about the Catholic celebrations. The Protestants celebrate confirmation, do you frown down your atheist nose at them too or do you reserve your loathing for Catholics. Some of the Protestant families hired limousines to take their children to the Kildare outlet to spend their confirmation money, my child hitched a ride but she isn’t Protestant, she had a lovely day out.

You may think a lot of your countrymen agree with you because the media give your view disproportionate coverage, you are in a complete minority, hence the controversy in Kinsealy. The only way to get your hearts desire is to move to an area with a large young population, ie an area with a large number of immigrants. The Government are building new schools in these areas and they are all ET, the more established areas do not want their schools divested, what happened in North Dublin will happen in South Dublin too and most definitely in rural Ireland. Divestment is a great idea in theory but NIMBY.

smacl

tretorn wrote: »

What traditions do you celebrate in your community, how do you mark rites of passage for your children.

Which community exactly? ET tends to emphasize parental involvement and inclusivity, so in the school they'd tend to mark a whole range of religious festivals from Christmas, Easter, Eid, Diwali or whatever else any particular family may be celebrating. As a family, we've a long standing tradition of getting to music events together on a regular basis, which we all enjoy and the basis for many a find memory.

Most religions mark chapters of their children’s lives with traditional coming together of families, why do you need to be so offensive about the Catholic celebrations. The Protestants celebrate confirmation, do you frown down your atheist nose at them too or do you reserve your loathing for Catholics. Some of the Protestant families hired limousines to take their children to the Kildare outlet to spend their confirmation money, my child hitched a ride but she isn’t Protestant, she had a lovely day out.

If you read my last post, you'll note I said Christians. Last time I checked, Protestants were Christians too. Nor did I say I loathe anyone, I just think that many of the Christian traditions in this country seem to centre around money, gifts, chocolate and various other forms of excessive consumerism and greed.

You may think a lot of your countrymen agree with you because the media give your view disproportionate coverage, you are in a complete minority, hence the controversy in Kinsealy. The only way to get your hearts desire is to move to an area with a large young population, ie an area with a large number of immigrants. The Government are building new schools in these areas and they are all ET, the more established areas do not want their schools divested, what happened in North Dublin will happen in South Dublin too and most definitely in rural Ireland. Divestment is a great idea in theory but NIMBY.

Nothing to do with the media. As per my previous post here, I'm basing my assertion on the fact that when last polled in 2012, just under 50% of those interviewed indicated they did not want religious instruction to happen in school hours. There has been an ongoing decline in religious observation in the intervening period along with plenty more church scandals, so I'm of the opinion that the figure would be more than 50% at this point in time.

Scare mongering and NIMBYism really is a last ditch mechanism to stifle divestment. Given ongoing decline in religion in Ireland, this is only going one way.

recedite

tretorn wrote: »

Some of the Protestant families hired limousines to take their children to the Kildare outlet to spend their confirmation money

Check out items 4 and 5 here...
https://www.dailyedge.ie/grew-up-protestant-2802677-Jun2016/

tretorn

I have been to confirmation parties for Protestant children and party was full outside catering with waiter service. The children would be brought to New York to spend their confirmation money, they would laugh at the idea of a prayer book.

If you think the Catholic clergy only are against secular education you havent met many Protestant church leaders, over their bodies will their schools be divested or their grants to attend Protestant schools be withdrawn. There are quite a few Protestant politicans and they know where their votes come from.

evolving_doors

tretorn wrote: »

What traditions do you celebrate in your community, how do you mark rites of passage for your children.

Most religions mark chapters of their children’s lives with traditional coming together of families, why do you need to be so offensive about the Catholic celebrations. The Protestants celebrate confirmation, do you frown down your atheist nose at them too or do you reserve your loathing for Catholics. Some of the Protestant families hired limousines to take their children to the Kildare outlet to spend their confirmation money, my child hitched a ride but she isn’t Protestant, she had a lovely day out.

You may think a lot of your countrymen agree with you because the media give your view disproportionate coverage, you are in a complete minority, hence the controversy in Kinsealy. The only way to get your hearts desire is to move to an area with a large young population, ie an area with a large number of immigrants. The Government are building new schools in these areas and they are all ET, the more established areas do not want their schools divested, what happened in North Dublin will happen in South Dublin too and most definitely in rural Ireland. Divestment is a great idea in theory but NIMBY.

Wow!
So... move to Dublin 15 with the immigrants if you don't like it?

Because don't you know, there's never any of them 'foreigners' in my child's school. Wot wot wot.

That rarefied air is giving ya notions.

smacl

recedite wrote: »

Check out items 4 and 5 here...
https://www.dailyedge.ie/grew-up-protestant-2802677-Jun2016/

The primary I went to initially was Prod before what became the first ET emerged. Main differences for me between Protestants and Catholics I remember as a child were as follows;

- The prods has an extra line on the Lord's prayer. "For thine is the kindom, the power and the glory" or some such. Sounds innocuous enough but when you find yourself going out with a Catholic girl some years later and end up being the only person repeating said line at her sisters wedding while trying to fake it as a Catholic, it gets awkward.

- When the prods talk about bread and wine, they mean bread and wine. Catholics seem more into unsalted pringles and buckfast.

- I suspect most of the protestant kids that I knew growing up didn't actually believe in God. Some of the Catholics apparently did, which was a bit of a surprise to the rest of us.

- The word atheist hadn't entered the Catholic vocabulary yet when I was a kid, so I was referred to as a pagan by my friend's parents. Ironically, I was big on Teutonic mythology as a lad, so they weren't far wrong. Oh yeah, burning in hell, got told that quite a bit, but secretly I knew I was destined for Valhalla.

recedite

smacl wrote: »

secretly I knew I was destined for Valhalla.

...but not yet

Cash and consumerism are generally frowned upon at the prod confo, but maybe tretorn has plugged into some lost tribe that never got the memo.

tretorn

evolving_doors wrote: »

Wow!
So... move to Dublin 15 with the immigrants if you don't like it?

Because don't you know, there's never any of them 'foreigners' in my child's school. Wot wot wot.

That rarefied air is giving ya notions.

Well, if something is that important then move your family to where there are lots of ET schools. Surely its simpler to this do this than proposing you force your desires on other people.The divesting process has stopped in North Dublin because the majority of parents want the religious ethos of their schools to remain, the staff want the status quo to remain too. The Government is not going to force ET schools on sreas where locals have influence and clout, its easier to stick ET schools in marginalised areas, same as its easier to put halting sites and refugees in poorer areas too.

Next on the agenda lads...........

tretorn

recedite wrote: »

...but not yet

Cash and consumerism are generally frowned upon at the prod confo, but maybe tretorn has plugged into some lost tribe that never got the

Are you a Protestant.

Doubt if you are, Protestants generally dont become athiests and religion is very important to them, family is too and keeping the ethos strong so Protestants generally marry other Protestants and they prefer their children to be educated alongside others of their faith. Hence the number of very expensive Protestant schools in the country, some Protestants even get Government grants to travel to “their” schools even though thete are community schools they could attend.

How many of the political elites went to community schools and were are their children going. Check out the orofessions too and check out RTE big earners.

evolving_doors

tretorn wrote: »

Well, if something is that important then move your family to where there are lots of ET schools. Surely its simpler to this do this than proposing you force your desires on other people.The divesting process has stopped in North Dublin because the majority of parents want the religious ethos of their schools to remain, the staff want the status quo to remain too. The Government is not going to force ET schools on sreas where locals have influence and clout, its easier to stick ET schools in marginalised areas, same as its easier to put halting sites and refugees in poorer areas too.

Next on the agenda lads...........

That air is getting rarer

recedite

tretorn wrote: »

Are you a Protestant.

Doubt if you are, Protestants generally dont become athiests and religion is very important to them, family is too and keeping the ethos strong so Protestants generally marry other Protestants and they prefer their children to be educated alongside others of their faith. Hence the number of very expensive Protestant schools in the country, some Protestants even get Government grants to travel to “their” schools even though thete are community schools they could attend.
How many of the political elites went to community schools and were are their children going. Check out the orofessions too and check out RTE big earners.

I'm an atheist, but I come from a long line of priests. There's not so many young Irish prods nowadays, most are either geriatrics or new immigrants.
I'll say one thing for the schools though, the poorest prod is usually educated sitting right next to the wealthiest one. Its actually very socialist, even though most people imagine it to be an elitist "private" system. That aspect can't be faulted.

tretorn

recedite wrote: »

I'm an atheist, but I come from a long line of priests. There's not so many young Irish prods nowadays, most are either geriatrics or new immigrants.
I'll say one thing for the schools though, the poorest prod is usually educated sitting right next to the wealthiest one. Its actually very socialist, even though most people imagine it to be an elitist "private" system. That aspect can't be faulted.

You mean the poorest Protestant is getting a Government grant to attend a school of their choice, this continues to be the case while Catholic schools are told to divest.

recedite

tretorn wrote: »

You mean the poorest Protestant is getting a Government grant to attend a school of their choice, this continues to be the case while Catholic schools are told to divest.

Protestant churches are experiencing a bit of a boon these days because unlike their RC comrades they often manage to recruit more members than they lose. So the divestment issue is less relevant when most of the schools are already over-subscribed.

Nevertheless, one of the first ever schools to divest was a small rural CoI school in Mayo.

Three of the new schools will open in temporary accommodation in Tramore, Co Waterford, Trim, Co Meath, and Malahide, Co Dublin, said Minister for Education and Skills Ruairí Quinn. A fourth will open at Newtownwhite NS, Ballysokerry, Ballina, Co Mayo where parents and existing school patrons the Church of Ireland are in discussions to shift patronage to Educate Together.

Anyhow, I have often said that I don't favour segregated education, whether religious based, or wealth based, or anything else. Check back on this very thread if you like; you'll find I am very consistent on that.

Hotblack Desiato

Nobelium wrote: »

Critical thinking should be taught in schools

Well that's not going to happen in religious ethos schools, for very obvious reasons.

Yes I take your point about this being a bad thing in general, not just in relation to religious ideological bullshI*t but all other kinds of bullsh*t as well.

Hotblack Desiato

tretorn wrote: »

Well, if something is that important then move your family to where there are lots of ET schools. Surely its simpler to this do this than proposing you force your desires on other people.

Duh, it's the tiny minority of actual devout catholic believers who are forcing their beliefs on everyone else in 90% of primary schools.

I'm not moving anywhere :mad: and telling people they should move away from "normal people" into some sort of ghetto - well we have heard this before, haven't we? Of course the catholic church admires fascists.

Change is coming, and the more stubborn the likes of you are will make the change more sudden and.. eh.. vigorous than you would otherwise like.

A compromise now would bie in your church's interests, but they're as bad as Paisley -- not an inch. :rolleyes:

robindch

Mod:

tretorn wrote: »

[...] do you frown down your atheist nose at them too or do you reserve your loathing for Catholics [...]

tretorn - that's a brand-new yellow card for you right there!

Please have a read of the forum charter - here, especially the First Commandment.

Feel free to bone up on Matthew 7:12 while you're at it

One eyed Jack

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Yes I take your point about this being a bad thing in general, not just in relation to religious ideological bullshI*t but all other kinds of bullsh*t as well.

Hmm...

smacl

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Hmm...

Wow, the lunatics have apparently taken over the asylum. Take the read pill dude and have a nice life. Can I recommend the virtual streak?

One eyed Jack

smacl wrote: »

Wow, the lunatics have apparently taken over the asylum. Take the read pill dude and have a nice life. Can I recommend the virtual streak?

Bit “Spanish Inquisitiony” there smacl, as in I didn’t see that coming! ‘‘Twas a joke is all, given HD was making the point about ideological bull being taught in schools and the idea that teaching critical thinking in schools would not just be more of the same ideological bull.

As a philosophy I take it is what is meant by proponents of teaching critical thinking in schools as though children aren’t thinking critically already and the implication being adults aren’t thinking critically if they fail to form the same conclusions as those proponents of critical thinking and what they imagine is critical thinking from their own perspective entirely based upon their own prejudices.

smacl

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Bit “Spanish Inquisitiony” there smacl, as in I didn’t see that coming! ‘‘Twas a joke is all, given HD was making the point about ideological bull being taught in schools and the idea that teaching critical thinking in schools would not just be more of the same ideological bull.

Nobody expects the Spanish inquisition. Chief among our weapons is surprise!

As a philosophy I take it is what is meant by proponents of teaching critical thinking in schools as though children aren’t thinking critically already and the implication being adults aren’t thinking critically if they fail to form the same conclusions as those proponents of critical thinking and what they imagine is critical thinking from their own perspective entirely based upon their own prejudices.

Critical thinking isn't a philosophy though, it is merely a set of techniques for being able to differentiate between probably true in the objective sense, and probably false or subjective. While I understand those pushing a religious agenda don't appreciate children being able to think for themselves, this is something which is important beyond religion given the huge amount of rubbish that is being pushed at kids from very many sources. Rote learning by comparison is becoming less valuable as a teaching tool year on year as the sum total of human knowledge increases. More simply, 'how' and 'why' are becoming more important questions than 'what' and 'when'. If you look at where the world is moving in terms of AI, skills that involve amassing and selecting from large amounts of primarily static data (e.g. medical diagnosis, law) and working to fixed rule sets (e.g. accounting) will be better done by machine within the next ten years or so.

One eyed Jack

smacl wrote: »

Critical thinking isn't a philosophy though, it is merely a set of techniques for being able to differentiate between probably true in the objective sense, and probably false or subjective.

You’ve just described philosophy?

While I understand those pushing a religious agenda don't appreciate children being able to think for themselves, this is something which is important beyond religion given the huge amount of rubbish that is being pushed at kids from very many sources.

I can’t be certain if that’s directed at me or not, but based upon evidence from our previous conversations, I’m leaning more towards the conclusion that it isn’t, given I’ve never tried to push a religious agenda on anyone’s children but my own, and certainly I’ve never tried to push a religious agenda on adults, not even anti-theists on here who have tried to drag an opinion out of me in relation to my own personal religious beliefs.

Your opinion presents something of a logical paradox in that you’re critical of people with an agenda pushing a way of thinking on children in the hope that it sticks, yet your own agenda is to push a way of thinking on children... in the hope that it sticks. Children, adults, humans really, are already thinking for themselves. It’s a function of the human mind, regardless of one’s intellectual abilities, it’s a process that every human being does, and were it not for humans thinking for themselves, the world would be a poorer place had Stephen Hawking lacked the technology to be able to communicate and express the ideas he was thinking for himself to the world. He would have had no choice but to keep his ideas to himself. Good thing for humanity then that he was given the ability by other humans who came up with the technology to share his ideas with the world. Some people think his ideas are rubbish, but y’know - everyone’s a critic :pac:

That’s not to say I don’t understand where you’re coming from, I do, I really do, and I actually agree with the main thrust of your position, but I would expand upon it and suggest that there are people who don’t appreciate what appears to them to be people who aren’t thinking for themselves, whether they be adults or children. Those people are undoubtedly thinking for themselves, but the problem arises where they want other people to think the same way they do, and they imagine that teaching children a way to perceive the world before they have the opportunity to experience it for themselves, will give children a frame of reference through which they will parse their perception of reality that they will hold throughout their lives.

You don’t need me to tell you that clearly hasn’t worked, or this forum wouldn’t be as active with adult Irish atheists as if is! And the same principle applies to any form of teaching children a way to think. Dress it up however you like, it’s still the same underlying principle when you strip away all the frills and thrills. Critical thinking is just as ill-defined a philosophy as any other, and depending upon whom you ask, you’re going to get different answers to the question - “What is critical thinking?”, because people are thinking critically about what critical thinking is to them, by parsing it through their own perceptions of reality which are based entirely upon their own prejudices, and inform how they perceive their experiences and expectations (or those experiences they don’t expect, even ).

What I mean by that is basically - your perception of what critical thinking is, is just that - your perception. It may, or may not, be shared by others, depending entirely upon their perception in being asked the question - “What is critical thinking?”


Contemporary critical thinking scholars have expanded these traditional definitions to include qualities, concepts, and processes such as creativity, imagination, discovery, reflection, empathy, connecting knowing, feminist theory, subjectivity, ambiguity, and inconclusiveness. Some definitions of critical thinking exclude these subjective practices.


Taken from here - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_thinking


If you expect Critical Thinking to be imparted in schools as a benign methodology (is the best way I could describe it without the words ‘ideology’ or ‘philosophy’), I would suggest bracing thyself, for if you perceive that now is the winter of our discontent, you haven’t seen anything yet :pac: I do not perceive it will be anything other than as I previously alluded to - the replacement of one ideology with another.

Rote learning by comparison is becoming less valuable as a teaching tool year on year as the sum total of human knowledge increases. More simply, 'how' and 'why' are becoming more important questions than 'what' and 'when'. If you look at where the world is moving in terms of AI, skills that involve amassing and selecting from large amounts of primarily static data (e.g. medical diagnosis, law) and working to fixed rule sets (e.g. accounting) will be better done by machine within the next ten years or so.

I could argue the toss with you as to whether the sum of human knowledge has actually increased, or whether it is simply that the way we perceive knowledge, and the value we put on knowledge, has changed. We have for example a celebrity culture that I would suggest has added very little to the sum of all human knowledge, particularly when one of the world’s most successful and influential artists who is someone of a demi-god as it were for young minds... is also a proponent of the idea that the earth is flat. Neil DgT who very few people have ever heard of and care even less about, weighs in in 140 characters or less (men of letters for a new generation :pac:) -

B.o.B Tries to Convince Twitter Earth Is Flat, Neil deGrasse Tyson Responds


Had Dicky Dawkins been the first responder, he’d likely have been told check his White Privilege :pac:

And so is the way the world has gone, and the sum of human knowledge? All evidence suggests the Age of Enlightenment is no more than a busted flush.

With regards to AI, even an abacus is useless without being taught how to use it to achieve anything, and so it is the same with Big Data - we know how to collect it, we know why we need to collect it, but always, the two questions which are most important in AI and in terms of humans is - what data is relevant, and when is it relevant in any decision making process.

I’m not sure if it was intentional on your part to start by criticising the fact that some people don’t appreciate other people thinking for themselves, and ending up arguing that AI will become more capable than humans in decision making processes. Working at the bleeding edge forefront of this technology, I am at least reassured that while there are many times the source of an error is between the computer and the chair, we’re a long way from Spike Jonze’s vision of the future yet, so far in fact, that I would suggest it shall remain in the realms of science-fiction and fantasy.

smacl

One eyed Jack wrote: »

You’ve just described philosophy?

Not really. A philosophy need not involve itself with probability from an objective perspective, it might be rule based or belief based and dismiss contradictory observation. Many philosophies also have a strong ethical element, e.g. secularism, Confucianism, Taoism or Christian philosophy, and as such tend deal with notions of 'good and bad' whereas critical thinking deals with 'likely or unlikely'. Many philosophies are compatible with critical thinking, e.g. secularism, others less so, e.g. dogmatic, religiously derived and belief based philosophies.

Your opinion presents something of a logical paradox in that you’re critical of people with an agenda pushing a way of thinking on children in the hope that it sticks, yet your own agenda is to push a way of thinking on children... in the hope that it sticks.

False dichotomy. I'm for teaching children how to think as opposed to what to think. I'm critical or teaching supposed truths by rote and would rather children were taught to be inquisitive and critical.

What I mean by that is basically - your perception of what critical thinking is, is just that - your perception. It may, or may not, be shared by others, depending entirely upon their perception in being asked the question - “What is critical thinking?”

Far from it. As with scientific method, critical thinking involves observation, testing, refinement and realising that you will be wrong more often than you're right. Critical thinking does not involve acting primarily on your beliefs or opinions, it involves analysing the available information with all the biases that it includes, and taking a position on that basis. That our understanding of critical thinking is changing and growing is entirely positive and to be expected. Our understanding of everything changes and grows, however much it distresses the Luddites and Flat earthers.

If you expect Critical Thinking to be imparted in schools as a benign methodology (is the best way I could describe it without the words ‘ideology’ or ‘philosophy’), I would suggest bracing thyself, for if you perceive that now is the winter of our discontent, you haven’t seen anything yet

Better a benign methodology than a clearly malignant theology, methinks.

I could argue the toss with you as to whether the sum of human knowledge has actually increased, or whether it is simply that the way we perceive knowledge, and the value we put on knowledge, has changed.

It would be a very weak argument. Once we gained the ability to write and archive information, humanity began to accumulate knowledge. Some doubtless gets lost over time but at nowhere near the rate of discovery. That there are many ignorant individuals, and that some knowledge may only exist in archive rather than in the mind of any given person, doesn't mean that knowledge doesn't exist.

And so is the way the world has gone, and the sum of human knowledge? All evidence suggests the Age of Enlightenment is no more than a busted flush.

Which evidence precisely?

With regards to AI, even an abacus is useless without being taught how to use it to achieve anything, and so it is the same with Big Data - we know how to collect it, we know why we need to collect it, but always, the two questions which are most important in AI and in terms of humans is - what data is relevant, and when is it relevant in any decision making process.

I’m not sure if it was intentional on your part to start by criticising the fact that some people don’t appreciate other people thinking for themselves, and ending up arguing that AI will become more capable than humans in decision making processes. Working at the bleeding edge forefront of this technology, I am at least reassured that while there are many times the source of an error is between the computer and the chair, we’re a long way from Spike Jonze’s vision of the future yet, so far in fact, that I would suggest it shall remain in the realms of subject of science-fiction and fantasy.

You couldn't be more wrong on this one. AI, notably deep learning in its current incarnation, is all about making informed decisions based on identifying patterns in data under analysis that are similar to patterns in a much large set of training data. MIT did a brief collation of studies on jobs that will be lost or created due to AI last year here. I've recently finished a part time course myself on convolutional neural nets, which while done initially out of interest in learning the subject matter, has already had a positive impact on how I work. What I think you'll see in ERP in the coming years will be existing decision support systems replaced with what amount to decision making systems, with far few actual planners required.

I do enjoy a bit of sci-fi and was amazed as a kid that Kirk had a little communicator he could talk into, and Picard had a super-computer he could ask questions of and actually get a response from. Alexa! Tea, Earl Grey, Hot!

Anteayer

I don't see how the current system hasn't ever been challenged over its constitutionality.

The state isn't supposed to be compelling people to go to schools that are against their beliefs. It's literally written in the constitution.

School attendance is basically compulsory and the choice of schools in many areas does not include Educate Together or secular options.

It's fairly obvious that the public school system here has been used to evangelise. How many parents baptised kids to ensure choice of schools over the decades ?

I just find we do a lot of a la carte constitutionalism here. Some bits of it are taken very seriously but anything that might challenge the pre independence status quo is ignored, at least if the status quo is more conservative.