School patronage

Odhinn

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

........, the existence of gnomes ........

...ye wha?

smacl

Certainly sounds pretty woo enriched. I saw a piece on one of the local Steiner schools, Wicklow AFAIK, and it had a certain 'Lord of the flies' meets Cheech and Chong look to it. Each to their own I guess. Be interesting to see what the kids turn out like.

Hotblack Desiato

Secondary school will be a bigger shock to the system than usual!

Odhinn

One study conducted by California State University at Sacramento researches outlined numerous theories and ideas prevalent throughout Waldorf curricula that were patently pseudoscientific and steeped in magical thinking. These included the idea that animals evolved from humans, that human spirits are physically incarnated into "soul qualities that manifested themselves into various animal forms," that the current geological formations on Earth have evolved through so-called "Lemurian" and "Atlantiean" epochs, and that the four kingdoms of nature are "mineral, plant, animal, and man." All of these are directly contradicted by mainstream scientific knowledge and have no basis in any form of conventional scientific study.

Now if that was the thought process behind HP Lovecrafts novels, its not a problem. But.

smacl

Odhinn wrote: »

Now if that was the thought process behind HP Lovecrafts novels, its not a problem. But.

As opposed to mainstream education involving teaching about an omnipresent being in the sky with a really charismatic zombie for a kid born to a virgin no less, stuffing loads of animals in a boat to preserve biodiversity and the notion that we're all effectively immortal. Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right....

Peregrinus

smacl wrote: »

Certainly sounds pretty woo enriched. I saw a piece on one of the local Steiner schools, Wicklow AFAIK, and it had a certain 'Lord of the flies' meets Cheech and Chong look to it. Each to their own I guess. Be interesting to see what the kids turn out like.

I have a friend who went to a Steiner school (for the primary cycle). She's turned out wonderful - talented, creative, kind, thoughful, loving, caring, competent, courageous.

But she hated the school. She found it claustrophobic, sinister, overbearing, intense.

Make of that what you will.

smacl

Odhinn wrote: »

...ye wha?

Gnomes and their ilk apparently are also a cause of concerns to American Catholics, as US Catholic school bans Harry Potter books over 'spells' claims. Apparently, according to excorcists in Rome

"The curses and spells used in the books are actual curses and spells; which when read by a human being risk conjuring evil spirits into the presence of the person reading the text," the reverend said in an email obtained by local media.

Needless to say, the first thing I did was to try the Cruciatis curse on the mother-laws dog but to little avail despite my best efforts. I guess atheism and muggledom are inextricably linked :rolleyes:

Cabaal

Peregrinus wrote: »

But she hated the school. She found it claustrophobic, sinister, overbearing, intense.

Make of that what you will.

So not unlike the primary Catholics school I went to that the nuns ran :pac:

Peregrinus

Cabaal wrote: »

So not unlike the primary Catholics school I went to that the nuns ran :pac:

And are you talented, creative, kind, thoughful, loving, caring, competent, courageous too?

Cabaal

Peregrinus wrote: »

And are you talented, creative, kind, thoughful, loving, caring, competent, courageous too?

of course, it goes without saying!
Am non religious as well.

Peregrinus

Cabaal wrote: »

of course, it goes without saying!
Am non religious as well.

Although not modest, obviously.

expectationlost

Second-level schools change patronage in effort to attract more students https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2019/0911/1075318-education/

Cabra Community College in Dublin 7 and St Kevin’s College in Dublin 12 are currently listed as "inter-denominational" on Department of Education web pages.

Two Dublin schools may provide answer to second-level choice https://www.rte.ie/news/analysis-and-comment/2019/0911/1075315-educate-together/

Neither school has more than 200 students, Cabra has just 120. This makes it impossible to offer a broad choice when it comes to subjects. It makes it impossible to have dedicated classes for Higher and Ordinary level students in all subjects. It makes high quality extra-curricular activities very difficult.

http://cabracc.ie/News/CDETB-and-Educate-Together-Announce-Partnership/43037/Index.html

is there something else going with these schools ? is there enough school provision in those area, with demographic changes, areas getting "old" ?

were these schools just in a geographic demographic tailspin, older area, less pupils > less resources > less pupils > less resources...****ty school, so ET promoting these might help but its really about geographic demographics

why wouldn't parents have chosen those schools if there was not enough spaces?

were either of these voluntary schools that turned into community schools ? in st Kevin's case?

both of these schools are listed as interdenominational

http://cabracc.ie/page/Mission-Statement-and-Ethos/41590/Index.html https://www.education.ie/en/find-a-school/School-Detail/?roll=70150O
http://www.stkevinscollege.ie/second-level/ https://www.education.ie/en/find-a-school/School-Detail/?roll=70160R

Hotblack Desiato

Dunno about nowadays but "the tech" in Crumlin had a horrific reputation 30-40 years ago.

expectationlost

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Dunno about nowadays but "the tech" in Crumlin had a horrific reputation 30-40 years ago.

so poor area, poor school, and the reputation lingered and now ET is saying middle classes come on in, its ok

Hotblack Desiato

In fairness the area is gentrifying rapidly, but their kids mostly won't even be in primary yet.

expectationlost

Parents welcome change of patron for two Dublin secondary schools https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/parents-welcome-change-of-patron-for-two-dublin-secondary-schools-1.4015301

“Today’s announcement to develop Cabra Community College as a centre of excellence in second-level education will be a huge boost for the community,” it said.

it previously wasn't a centre of excellence?
https://www.facebook.com/d7secondaryoptn/

A need for good co-ed multi-denominational Secondary options in Dublin 7
Dublin 7 & Ashtown Secondary Options·Tuesday, 2 October 2018·
We've a need in our community for a local, co-ed, multi-denominational secondary, with a strong range of leaving certificate honours and pass subjects.
Many of our children are going to a primary in this or nearby areas which have co-ed, multi-denominational ethos. Other parents would like their boys and girls to learn in the same environment.
We have some excellent schools in the area. But they either cater for one gender, are religious, are all-Irish, or don't have the resources to provide for this growing need. And that’s where we come in.
We’re working to support the future of secondary education within our community. A quick analysis of CSO statistics, or a walk about our area, shows our community is young and growing. We've several Educate Together schools in this and surrounding community. Now is the time for us to help our elected and unelected officials understand this growing need.
Please follow our page and support this campaign.

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2019-05-08/6/ cabra needs new tech block?
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2019-03-06/10/ only began to do the leaving cert recently is it again my middle class brain that asks why would a secondary school not do leaving cert

Hotblack Desiato

In some places those doing the LC would go to a "senior college" after JC

expectationlost

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

In some places those doing the LC would go to a "senior college" after JC

why would a senior college not have junior college?
cos there are small but why were they ever separate and built small?

Hotblack Desiato

Depends on when the schools were set up. The majority of students didn't sit the leaving cert years ago.

So you could have two (or more) junior schools in an area, and then a senior college on the grounds of one of the junior schools to cater for LC students from all of the junior schools.

Hotblack Desiato

Catholic practices ‘normalised’ in many multidenominational State schools

In addition, the majority of these non-designated schools reported that the local diocesan examiners visited the school to meet the principal or religion teachers or both.

Many reported that the diocesan examiners looked for evidence of the amount of religion classes per week that were on the timetable, while others reported that diocesan officials provided training for religious teachers,

“Some ETB schools reported being sent surveys by diocesan advisors seeking information on the names and qualifications of RE [religion] teachers, numbers of periods per week of RE etc. Many questioned the purpose of these surveys and the appropriateness of them being sent to ‘non-designated’ schools,” the report notes.

NB these are schools fully owned by the State!

rainbow kirby

How ridiculous. It's literally none of their business.

end of the road

rainbow kirby wrote: »

How ridiculous. It's literally none of their business.

while the majority continue to claim to be catholic, dispite the majority of that majority not being so, then such groups are going to believe it is their business to insure that such teaching is available in schools.
as i have said before, the people have to take some responsibility here. stop identifying as a member of a religion you don't even believe in.
plenty of us already manage to do this without any issues.

Hotblack Desiato

Missed this from a couple of weeks ago:

Children who opt out of religion in primary are denied teaching for 129 full school days

In concluding its 2012 report, the Forum for Patronage and Pluralism recommended the divestment from church to community patronage for primary schools on a phased and incremental basis.

With 96 per cent of all primary schools patronised by a single religion, the forum stated that it would be inadvisable to recommend “a big bang radical upheaval” and cautiously called for a softly, softly approach.

Little did the authors of the report realise that eight school years later, the rate of divesting could be measured by a junior infant on one hand with a spare thumb to suck, with single-faith school patronage continuing on a dominant 96th percentile.

Admission policies to these schools invariably claim to be welcoming to children of all faiths and none.

The welcome mat is rolled out for all children, but for those whose parents do not wish them to receive religious instruction it reads “welcome but . . .”.

The “but” is the opt-out, where those children must sit out religion class. While the class teacher works with his/her class in fulfilling the faith (including a majority who do not practise this faith with their families outside of the school), the opt-outs sit down the back of the class and count down the 30 minutes while colouring in yet another dinosaur.

In my 20 years as a principal of a Catholic school, parents acquiesced to this mono-ethos system without question.

The only times issues arose might have been at time of First Communion and Confirmation, when rehearsals impinged hugely on the integrity of the school timetable, with their children more clearly left on the outside.

However, the daily teaching of religion directly affects this integrity of the school timetable.

Children who opt out are denied teaching for half an hour every day. With 1,464 days in the eight-year primary school cycle, this amounts to 129 full school days.

This equates to 26 full school weeks in a child’s primary school career. That’s a lot of time for colouring dinosaurs.

Surely this time would be better spent being helping all our children to “know about and understand the cultural heritage of the major forms of religion, beliefs, traditions and world views which have been embraced by humankind”.

These are the aims of the Education about Religion and Beliefs (ERB) programme proposed by the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment (NCCA) as part of its new primary school curriculum

Atheist Ireland are dead right on this though - the ERB programme isn't neutral, not surprising given the Dept of Education's track record - and there is no way a religious ethos school could be trusted to teach it in a neutral fashion anyway.

The answer is staring us in the face, but as a nation we continue to look the other way and pretend everthing is fine when it's not.


Two other stories which will be little surprise to anyone here:

Catholic school backs ‘homework pass’ for attending religious event

The parent of a child at Yellow Furze national school, in Co Meath, has made a formal complaint, claiming her son was one of two out of 33 in his class who was “penalised” with homework for not attending a religious ceremony.

“He came out of school crying. He told me the teacher had told the class that children who did not participate in the Communion choir would not receive a homework pass,” said the mother, who declined to be named on the basis that it would identify her son.

Parents finding it ‘impossible’ to opt children out of religion education

Many parents are finding it “impossible” to opt-out their children from religion classes despite their legal right to do so, according to campaigners.

Under both the Constitution and the Education Act (1998), parents have a right to have their children opt out of religion classes if they wish.

A spokesman for the Department of Education confirmed this was the case and said practical arrangements to accommodate children whose parents have chosen this option is a matter for each individual school.

However, the campaign group Atheist Ireland claims it is aware of dozens of cases where parents have been told the subject is a core subject and the right to opt-out should not arise. “It’s like the public services card – it’s mandatory, but not compulsory,” said Jane Donnelly of Atheist Ireland.

“If you do manage to opt your child out, they’re given no other subject and you’re asked why do you want to do this. Parents are questioned as to their reason. It’s like a form of coercion.”

lazygal

When you scratch the surface of any religious school you'll find any and all claims of inclusion are non existent. These schools are set up to evagelise first and foremost and children not of the schools' religion are seen as hassle, if they're a different religion, and as having parents who just have a grudge against the Catholic church, if they're of no religion. I don't know a single parent who has opted out children and feels the system works well and that their children are treated appropriately. Every single one has a story of a teacher, other child or principal who has othered their child or children.

Hotblack Desiato

True, there's one teacher in particular in my kids' primary who is a bit of a religious nut and has caused a few issues, a quiet word with the principal sorted it out though

lazygal

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

True, there's one teacher in particular in my kids' primary who is a bit of a religious nut and has caused a few issues, a quiet word with the principal sorted it out though

You shouldn't even have to do that, but yet everyone I know who has navigated opting out has at least one story like this.

AstraMonti

People that have pulled your junior/senior infants kids out of the religious bull****, were you given a plan what your child will do during prayers and all the other nonsense they are doing? My daughter came back with a "GOD Loves autumn and trees" colouring exercise and it just made my blood boil immediately and I want to remove her from every religious activity.

lazygal

AstraMonti wrote: »

People that have pulled your junior/senior infants kids out of the religious bull****, were you given a plan what your child will do during prayers and all the other nonsense they are doing? My daughter came back with a "GOD Loves autumn and trees" colouring exercise and it just made my blood boil immediately and I want to remove her from every religious activity.

The school and teacher will tell you the JI and SI programme is GRAND, just about learning about being kind and everyone else is doing it so it would be tricky to opt her out and they can't really do anything with her in the class. Then there's the ****e that is the integrated curriculum which means the religion is stuffed into every possible subject, like art and music for religious occasions, spellings with religious words, geography and history with reference to religion etc.

So opt out of the grow in love and sundry stuff as a start but it can be a weary and irritating road. Ours are in an ET and we still have to counter the religious crap they cover in the learn together programme and from other children.

KWAG2019

rainbow kirby wrote: »

How ridiculous. It's literally none of their business.

I agree with you that it should not be but as long as the current legal structure remains in place in Irish education it is. The evils of the 1998 Act are very clear now and the underlying outrage that is the whole "patron" system sails merrily on. In a new area parents should realise that there are huge advantages to not having RE taught in school: you get the same amount of teachers but they can all teach real subjects. It gives more choice at 2nd level and more options for kids be it in subjects or smaller classes. For example if there are 20 class groups in a school across 5 years and each group has to get 2-3 classes per week in RE that means 40-60 periods in all. That means the school has to set aside 1-2 teachers to do that from its allocation of teachers. If they could teach Maths then think of smaller groups or maybe bring in a new subject. Parents in a new area being "advised" about the type of school need to know that.

Cabaal

Surprised nobody has posted this

https://www.thejournal.ie/waterford-bishop-alphonsus-cullinan-yoga-mindfulness-4857160-Oct2019/

Bishop of Waterford warns against yoga and mindfulness in schools
Bishop Alphonsus Cullinan said that yoga was “not suitable for a parish school setting”.

For a change nice to see the vast majority of comments on the journal making fun of such an outdated view by the Bishop,