School patronage

recedite

I think he is basically saying to the school patrons, when you control the schools, use that opportunity to evangelise/indoctrinate any non-RC kids to the maximum, and ignore that multicultural p.c. bullcrap attitude that some of the more liberal teachers might like to adopt.

Brian Shanahan

recedite wrote: »

I think he is basically saying to the school patrons, when you control the schools, use that opportunity to evangelise/indoctrinate any non-RC kids to the maximum, and ignore that multicultural p.c. bullcrap attitude that some of the more liberal teachers might like to adopt.

So much for Bergoglio modernising the church then. A wolf in sheep's clothing comes to mind.:mad:

PopePalpatine

It was clear to me within a few months of his inauguration that he's just a PR-friendly Pope. It's kinda like how everyone remembers JP2 much more fondly than Benny the 16th.

robindch

Educate Together have been granted management of a school in -- wait for it -- Bristol:

http://www.educatetogether.ie/redfield

Educate Together wrote:

The Department for Education in London has announced that Educate Together will run the new primary school to be opened in Avonvale Road in Bristol in September 2014.

The school will be a full two class per year primary school. It is one of three new schools being opened in Bristol in the next two years to address rapidly increasing pupil numbers in the city. The school is part of the British state-funded system, is open to all in the area and is not a private or fee-paying school. Speaking about the announcement, Paul Rowe, CEO of Educate Together said: "We are delighted to work with our partners within Educate Together Academy Trust in the development of this school. We are really excited about the development and are looking forward to working with local parents, the community, the English Department for Education and Bristol City Council to make sure that this school makes a real contribution to the educational landscape of Bristol and an excellent school for children and parents.”

I take my hat off to Educate Together. Well done!

Hotblack Desiato

Is it wrong of me to wish they'd concentrate all their efforts on this country?

recedite

ninja900 wrote: »

Is it wrong of me to wish they'd concentrate all their efforts on this country?

I think so. Wouldn't it be great to see them widespread in N.Ireland? If it works here, it should work in other jurisdictions that have a common historical background.

robindch

ninja900 wrote: »

Is it wrong of me to wish they'd concentrate all their efforts on this country?

For better or worse, Educate Together has to play a political game too and something like this certainly does add credibility to their approach. That said, I'm not sure how much of a distraction it's been, or is likely to be. If it's been a major drain on resources, then perhaps they'd be better employed concentrating on Ireland, but if it's been a relatively minor expense, then yes, I'm with recedite on this one and think it's worth doing for all kinds of reasons.

Sulla Felix

Thought this thread over on the Greystones/Wicklow sub-forum might be of interest here.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057099520

Long story short, it appears CoI camaigned and won the right of patronage to a secondary school on the back of promises that admissions would be interfaith prioritizing seven particular schools.

Now that the deal is done, ink is dry, a new admissions policy for the next admission year has appeared that's giving priority to CoI congregants.

expectationlost

http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/debateswebpack.nsf/takes/dail2014012100056?opendocument#WRA01250

Deputy Mattie McGrath: asked the Minister for Education and Skills Information on Ruairí Quinn Zoom on Ruairí Quinn his views on whether the Forum for Patronage Report was far too narrow in scope and centred much more around the religious education curriculum rather than any meaningful understanding of whole school ethos; his views on whether the forum report's philosophy will impose restrictions on Roman Catholic schools in respect of the way religious education is taught in Roman Catholic schools, on the way the religious artefacts are displayed, on the way prayer-life is conducted and the way the Christian ethos is lived; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

Minister for Education and Skills (Deputy Ruairí Quinn):The Report of the Advisory Group to the Forum on Patronage contains a wide range of recommendations aimed at ensuring that Irish schools cater for the diversity within society. These recommendations were drawn up following a public consultation process and widespread engagement with interested parties.

As part of my Action Plan in response to the Report, I recently conducted a further consultation process to give parents, in particular, an opportunity to give their views on the Group's recommendations on how schools can become more inclusive.

The process to date has given ample opportunity for the views of all interested parties to be taken on board. In accordance with the Programme for Government commitment, the submissions received, together with the Forum Report findings and recommendations, are now being considered with a view to developing a White Paper outlining Government policy in this area.

Hotblack Desiato

recedite wrote: »

I think so. Wouldn't it be great to see them widespread in N.Ireland? If it works here, it should work in other jurisdictions that have a common historical background.

In Northern Ireland, absolutely.
but it seems bizarre to me in England where secular education is the norm.

Qs

Sulla Felix wrote: »

Thought this thread over on the Greystones/Wicklow sub-forum might be of interest here.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057099520

Long story short, it appears CoI camaigned and won the right of patronage to a secondary school on the back of promises that admissions would be interfaith prioritizing seven particular schools.

Now that the deal is done, ink is dry, a new admissions policy for the next admission year has appeared that's giving priority to CoI congregants.

Shouldn't have surprised anyone. The CoI school in Wicklow Town has the exact same policy. They are much, much more exclusionary than any of the RCC schools.

Brian Shanahan

ninja900 wrote: »

In Northern Ireland, absolutely.
but it seems bizarre to me in England where secular education is the norm.

Not really, one of the goals of the academy process was the back door christianisation (as in teaching ID as an alternative to reality) and other religionisation of the state sector.

And don't forget England is also the country where it's the law to say prayers daily in school.

recedite

Qs wrote: »

Shouldn't have surprised anyone. The CoI school in Wicklow Town has the exact same policy. They are much, much more exclusionary than any of the RCC schools.

But that older school is privately owned, it was built by the COI.

This new one is being constructed entirely with public money (its not open yet) and the patronage vote was won narrowly by COI. The non COI (ie non faith school) vote was split between ET and VEC. The only other secondary school in Greystones is RC, and many RC people seem to have voted for the COI as there was no RC bid for the patronage.

Anyway as I'm living locally I've been making all these points since before the patronage was decided, but its amazing how many people think its only fair and right for the "winner" of the patronage competition to do whatever they want with the school afterwards. Its a "winner take all" attitude, similar to what you might see when politicians get into government.
Its probably best not to flood that thread with < intemperate > comments at this stage though

lazygal

It is baffling how many people see no issue whatsoever with a private organisation like a church getting state funding to further its business with the added incentive of not having to serve all those who fund it and are protected under law from treating everyone equally. If this was Nike getting the state to build a school with public funds and refusing access to anyone who didn't agree with wearing Nike and told everyone who didn't wear Nike they might not let them in there'd be calls to Joe. But because its religious there's no problem.

expectationlost

recedite wrote: »

But that older school is privately owned, it was built by the COI.

This new one is being constructed entirely with public money (its not open yet) and the patronage vote was won narrowly by COI. The non COI (ie non faith school) vote was split between ET and VEC. The only other secondary school in Greystones is RC, and many RC people seem to have voted for the COI as there was no RC bid for the patronage.

Anyway as I'm living locally I've been making all these points since before the patronage was decided, but its amazing how many people think its only fair and right for the "winner" of the patronage competition to do whatever they want with the school afterwards. Its a "winner take all" attitude, similar to what you might see when politicians get into government.
Its probably best not to flood that thread with < intemperate > comments at this stage though

where did COI make the promise people says it's broken.
..ok gone through both threads...
here ? http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=88012884&postcount=90
is there a link to the original admissions polcy they use to pitch the school with? apart from this, ont that detailed the categories

recedite

Someone has posted it in post#108 on the thread. I know the claim of equal access for all the 7 local primary schools, all to be in "Category 1" was well publicised verbally at public meetings. You won't find the original list of criteria on the school website; it was taken down.
It was a devious master stroke to insert a new Category Zero in front of Cat 1 after the patronage was awarded, and then introduce a "special mechanism" whereby those languishing in Cat 2 could also be propelled ahead of Cat 1.
Thereby leaving Cat 1 at the bottom instead of at the top in terms of priority.

expectationlost

post a link to the page it was on and I'll see if i can find it, http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=88039519&postcount=108

who believed it though?

Delirium

Education minister has said faith formation should happen outside the classroom.

http://www.thejournal.ie/religion-class-schools-ireland-1282335-Jan2014/

Disappointed that the poll voters majority disagrees.

swampgas

SW wrote: »

Education minister has said faith formation should happen outside the classroom.

http://www.thejournal.ie/religion-class-schools-ireland-1282335-Jan2014/

Disappointed that the poll voters majority disagrees.

I'd be willing to bet that if religious education was dropped but the communion and confirmation ceremonies were kept, so that the rituals were preserved, most cultural catholics would be happy enough. The church wouldn't cooperate with secularising (if that is even a word) the rituals like that of course.

robindch

Should indoctrination take place in schools or in churches or at home?

http://www.thejournal.ie/religion-class-schools-ireland-1282335-Jan2014/

As usual with these kind of polls, the voting goes one way, but the comments go the other way.

expectationlost

what use are these suggestions from ruairi quinn, when ministers call for things...

Hotblack Desiato

Exactly. You'd swear he wasn't the fella paying for the running of schools. Doesn't want to accept responsibility.

Sickens me when he says that parents in certain areas want choice (implying parents in other areas don't), out of about 15 primary and secondary schools in our area all are religious run except for 3 gaelscoils. It seems that's our 'choice' already taken care of :mad:

Banbh

Ruairi Quinn has been in office for several years now and has succeeded in doing nothing to change the status quo.

lazygal

I defy anyone to change anything in the department of education and skills. It is one of the most conservative departments. Even the teaching unions never call for change to stop their members being discriminated against in schools employment. Quinn is at least asking these questions of religious bodies.

Banbh

Quinn is at least asking these questions of religious bodies.

Asking questions? He's the Minister in charge of doing things - and he's done nothing but cover his ass by setting up forums and committees.

Very soon he will be out of office forever and the next Minister will be an obedient Catholic but at least the pretence will be over.

lazygal

Banbh wrote: »

Asking questions? He's the Minister in charge of doing things - and he's done nothing but cover his ass by setting up forums and committees.

Very soon he will be out of office forever and the next Minister will be an obedient Catholic but at least the pretence will be over.

As I said I defy anyone to do better than he has with the type of people he has to deal with in his department. It is a notoriously conservative one.

Banbh

Well that's a noble epitaph for him.

He did no worse than anyone else.

I will always remember his time in office for that and how worthwhile it was that he kept going to work at the trough of Irish governance just to keep the seat warm for the next guy.

Zamboni

Ruiari Quinn has done more for the education system than anyone in the history of the state.
ET primary places have multiplied and they became patrons for secondary schools - substantial progress.
We can all ignore the practicalities of lack of funding/politics/church power and whinge about not having a complete secular education system but it would be pointless.
He has done what he can with what he had.

recedite

Zamboni wrote: »

ET primary places have multiplied and they became patrons for secondary schools - substantial progress.

Due to public demand and people voting for them, either with their feet or in polls when new schools were coming on stream. I don't think Quinn is claiming the credit for the spread of ET schools?

expectationlost

Zamboni wrote: »

Ruiari Quinn has done more for the education system than anyone in the history of the state.
ET primary places have multiplied and they became patrons for secondary schools - substantial progress.
We can all ignore the practicalities of lack of funding/politics/church power and whinge about not having a complete secular education system but it would be pointless.
He has done what he can with what he had.

ET = more private schools, what he has is the department of education, ruairi quinn hasn't tackled the fundamental problem of state funding religious education and still the lack of choice for secular students he won't even admit the problem, again he's leaving it up to schools, or saying parents want choice when there isn't choice. he is continuing to breach every human rights body there is on the issue http://www.teachdontpreach.ie/ it's his responsibility he can't be let off of that.