Do you cringe when people use the C word?

Wibbs

The Sweeper wrote: »

I would also feel that to call them out on it would immediately make me a humourless bitch.

Why TS? Why not call them out for being gobshítes? Why not call them out as being juvenile arseholes? How would being logical in going WTF make one out to be a "humourless bitch"? And so what if it did among juvenile arseholes. Unless of course one was overreacting and being actually humourless. Otherwise it sounds like a right copout to me.

That does irritate me, because it's not up to Naomi W to have a sense of humour in that situation.

Actually in a way it does. If someone, anyone comes up with some largely undefendable and unexplainable set of wolly minded "theories" beyond their own tenuous bullshít and on the back of it ends up having to go to her/his special place for six months in retreat, then all bets are off. You either have a defensible position you're willing to defend or not. If it's not then don't fall back on subjective feelings as a defence because it looks like avoidance at best and bullshít at worst.

It's up to her host to simply not do something. Make pasta vaginas if you must, but don't serve them with sausages and fish because that's just crass.

Oh I dunno, depending on the audience the pasta pussies might have been enough to cause ructions.

To be fair for the most part I conflate N Wolf with utter bollocks, so it's well possible I'm missing an actual and rare point she may be making within the constricts of the utter bollocks she is well known for.

krudler

I thought it was hilarious that Joss Whedon managed to work the insult "you mewling quim" into The Avengers, basically calling the heroine of the film a whimpering cunt in a pg rated summer movie :pac:

Kimia

Millicent wrote: »

My question though would be why do you give it that power? I am one of those people who do not dislike the word. I outlined the reasons why I like it. That has nothing to do with going with the flow of the conversation (not my style! ) and all to do with the fact that I will not allow someone to make me feel ashamed of my bits.

I sincerely don't see any difference in insult between c-word for a lady and c-word for a man. To me, they're both sexual organs, which we all possess in some form or other, with no inherent insult to them. I honestly don't get the level of ire the word draws from some. And yet, when I hear girls greet each other as "slut" or use it pejoratively, I balk because that to me is offensive. The c-word just doesn't have the same effect on me. So someone compared me to a vagina? So what is my reaction. I find that far less offensive than comparing me to a female dog or calling me a slapper.

I simply do not understand why people will take less offence to what, I feel, are far more derogatory words than to an old word for a vagina.

I have huge admiration for the way you don't give a sh*t - and I love the way you don't allow people to make you feel ashamed of your bits. I suppose the point is going to come down to, not everyone feels the same way, unfortunately.

Really, you could reduce this whole discussion down to: what offends some, doesn't offend others. It's just a personal thing.

Lia_lia

I don't care, it's only a word. In France it's also a swear word but it's seen as a lot less harsh. Everyone over there bloody says it.

I use it sometimes. The Mother hates it.

yawha

Cultural context is extremely important. I think it's generally only considered a big deal in the States. When reading criticisms of language by American feminists, you have to understand that they're coming from an American point of view of these things.

This certainly doesn't invalidate anyone's negative feelings towards the word, but you have to deal in generalities based on cultural, and other, factors when determining whether a word is appropriate to use or not. Thus, in general, I don't believe that the word is in a tier above other swear words, or that it really has any sexist connotations in Ireland, whereas I would say that it does in the US.

Millicent

Kimia wrote: »

I have huge admiration for the way you don't give a sh*t - and I love the way you don't allow people to make you feel ashamed of your bits. I suppose the point is going to come down to, not everyone feels the same way, unfortunately.

Really, you could reduce this whole discussion down to: what offends some, doesn't offend others. It's just a personal thing.

Yep, it's definitely a very personal thing. That's why I used "c-word" throughout my post as I know it's a word that bothers you and I respect that. Different horses and all.

The Sweeper

Wibbs wrote: »

Why TS? Why not call them out for being gobshítes? Why not call them out as being juvenile arseholes? How would being logical in going WTF make one out to be a "humourless bitch"? And so what if it did among juvenile arseholes.

Because it's never easy being that person.

There's a mixed group. Everyone is talking and laughing and joshing about, even those there's a certain air of subtle tension (because everybody has seen 'the thing' that may cause a reaction, and they're waiting to see what everybody else does). If you're that person, you call a half for a moment and say 'Hey, what's this? What's this all about? Isn't this a bit crass?'

'Oh seriously, it's just a joke.'

'But no, really, it's really pretty crass. It's kinda not funny either.'

> This is the point where the person who played the joke gets defensive. They do. I can guarantee it. Because if they were a mature enough adult to not get defensive, they wouldn't be making the 'joke' in the first place.

So now the mood of the party has totally changed, and there's no laughing and joshing: there is a divide. There's the joke folks, and the crass folks. Team joke are clinging to the notion it's a joke - so they're the ones preserving the laughter, the good times, the light heartedness. Team crass are trying to gently make the point that it's not funny - and that's the problem. You have to gently make the point, because you're the one stamping on the laughies. Stop laughing everyone, it's not funny.

Ooo look, it's the fun police.

It is incredibly difficult to lead team crass in an offensive against bad taste jokes and hold onto the position that you're not the party-poopers, even if you take the position that you wanted to have a good time and it's team poor-taste-joke who have in fact ruined it for everyone.

You are overreacting. You are making a big deal. You are being hysterical. You're mental. You're being a drama queen. You're making a fuss. It was just a joke. Jesus like, how highly strung are you? It was just a joke.

And ya know, sometimes I just want to go out and have a few beers and not have to get into a fuckin battle about disrespect for women, but if something obnoxious comes up and I let it slide I feel bloody worse.

SusieBlue

It doesn't offend me and I don't find it sexist. The word is only powerful and offensive if we take it that way. To me its just a word.

I find it really ironic that a lot of people who hate the "c" word swear a lot, but don't find the "c" word acceptable.

Lyaiera

The Sweeper wrote: »

Because it's never easy being that person.

There's a mixed group. Everyone is talking and laughing and joshing about, even those there's a certain air of subtle tension (because everybody has seen 'the thing' that may cause a reaction, and they're waiting to see what everybody else does). If you're that person, you call a half for a moment and say 'Hey, what's this? What's this all about? Isn't this a bit crass?'

'Oh seriously, it's just a joke.'

'But no, really, it's really pretty crass. It's kinda not funny either.'

> This is the point where the person who played the joke gets defensive. They do. I can guarantee it. Because if they were a mature enough adult to not get defensive, they wouldn't be making the 'joke' in the first place.

So now the mood of the party has totally changed, and there's no laughing and joshing: there is a divide. There's the joke folks, and the crass folks. Team joke are clinging to the notion it's a joke - so they're the ones preserving the laughter, the good times, the light heartedness. Team crass are trying to gently make the point that it's not funny - and that's the problem. You have to gently make the point, because you're the one stamping on the laughies. Stop laughing everyone, it's not funny.

Ooo look, it's the fun police.

It is incredibly difficult to lead team crass in an offensive against bad taste jokes and hold onto the position that you're not the party-poopers, even if you take the position that you wanted to have a good time and it's team poor-taste-joke who have in fact ruined it for everyone.

You are overreacting. You are making a big deal. You are being hysterical. You're mental. You're being a drama queen. You're making a fuss. It was just a joke. Jesus like, how highly strung are you? It was just a joke.

And ya know, sometimes I just want to go out and have a few beers and not have to get into a fuckin battle about disrespect for women, but if something obnoxious comes up and I let it slide I feel bloody worse.

I've sat here thinking about your post for a good fifty minutes. I've started typing thinking I'll eventually get somewhere where the words are simply flowing out of my fingers. I've deleted about three big posts of semi-thought out ideas. I've put on music hoping it would get me in the mood of "answering" you.

I don't know what your point or angle is. I don't know if you simply want to decry the ****ty situation a tonne of people, including you and I are in. I do however relate to your idea that you "just want to go out and have a few beers."

I don't know if your ideas of hateful language match up with mine. I don't know if my ideas of feminism would ever match up with yours. But if I could grant everyone a Friday night (and a hangover Saturday) off to just be happy, relaxed and comfortable I would. Then we might start working towards a Monday morning of comfort, and a Wednesday evening of chilling out.

Spread

I hope this kinda joke doesn't offend anyone that finds the c word offensive.

SNIP. I suggest you look up the words "joke" "context" and "crass" in the oul dictionary. Works in both Websters and the Oxford versions. No more posts like this FFS. Think before you click Submit.

Rosy Posy

Wibbs wrote: »

The salmon story was beyond risible. That it affected her sooooo deeply*sob* that she had writers block for 6 months was the icing on the cake.

The icing on these cakes...for dessert...love the menstruating ones and the vajazzle!

Rosy Posy

I have to say that the word has a whole different impact in Ireland compared with elsewhere. I would have used it a fair bit as would my peers when I lived in Ireland, went down like a lead balloon abroad...I've had to train myself out of swearing so much since emigrating (and every time I come back from being home). I think that when a word is used a lot and not in a shocking context we become desensitised to it and it loses its power. Which is no bad thing. Its just a word. Its the intent that makes it insulting.

I have to say that I find books like Naomi Wolf's to be somewhat counter productive. I read 'Misconceptions' when I was pregnant and it was a very depressing read that made me feel negative about my position and perception in the world. I think that the best way to overcome subtle oppression like she describes is to create your own reality by surrounding yourself with positive and affirming ideas. IMHO she is contributing to the destructive power of sexist language by inflating its physical, emotional and intellectual impact.

pickarooney

Kimia wrote: »

Everytime I see one of these threads pop up my heart sinks. This really reminds me of the thread NP did before she quit boards for good. I know my opinion will be unpopular but here goes.

Calling someone a c*nt is comparing them to a vagina, and by doing this, conveys the idea that a vagina is something bad, offensive, and distasteful. This, I think, is what the OP and the author felt was worthy of discussion.

The fact that everyone leaped up to say that they don't get offended when someone calls them a c*nt is great, it shows that many of us are not easily offended and can banter with the best of them. But equally, shouldn't it be ok for some people to get offended? The shaming and judgement that went on at the start of the thread was unfortunate.

Someone pointed out that calling someone a d*ck doesn't even offend anyone anymore, that it's totally lost all meaning. The author may argue that calling someone a d*ck doesn't get taken seriously because the masculine connotation is not as negative. It's not as bad to be referred to as something male.

Whatever you say about the writing, the point was - are you offended by swear words that convey that being a woman is disgusting? And if I'm honest, yes, I am. I do think that there is a disparity between using c*nt as offensive language and using d*ck as offensive language. One is seen as more serious than the other.

And to the person who said that words don't mean anything? What a pile of steaming bull****. I've never heard anything more ridiculous in my entire life. Words are powerful, compelling and deeply meaningful - they are the way we communicate with each other ffs. They mean everything.

Every time someone trots this out they never seem to be able to explain why twat and pussy are not just as offensive to them as cünt.

Maybe you can?

dave3004

krudler wrote: »

hell no, its a horrible word. moist.

MOIST

^ look at it! rotten word.

Someone has been watching Des Bishop stand-up me thinks

The Big Red Button

Kimia wrote: »

And to the person who said that words don't mean anything? What a pile of steaming bull****. I've never heard anything more ridiculous in my entire life. Words are powerful, compelling and deeply meaningful - they are the way we communicate with each other ffs. They mean everything.

I've read through the whole thread again, and I honestly can't see a post where someone has said that words don't mean anything.

Of course words are very powerful - I don't think anyone is denying that. But in my opinion it's all about context.

My friends and I (male and female) would use the words "c*nt" "bitch" "dick" "slut" "gobshite" "eejit" "asshole" etc, interchangeably, as banter amongst ourselves. I'm probably making it out as though I swear non-stop - I really don't!

But what I'm saying is that I don't see that word as being inherently more or less offensive than any other word. That's what others have said, too - that c*nt is just a word, no different than any other.

I am sensitive to the fact that some people are offended by hearing that word spoken (just as others, as mentioned, are offended by hearing the words "bitch" or "slut".) Because of this, I'd never use such language around someone unless I knew them well.

An example of where innocent words can be far more hurtful than any curse word ... I was in a fitting room yesterday, where three girls were working. From what I heard of the conversation, it seemed that two of the three were absolutely grinding down the third girl with seemingly innocent comments ...

"Oh you're so brave to come into work every day without makeup, I could never do it" ... "It must be strange having a boyfriend who's so much more stylish than you are" ... "You're so lucky having a flat chest, I wish I could go without wearing a bra" ... "Do you even own another pair of shoes? Haha, they must be really comfy seeing as you wear them every day."

This was all within the space of the ten minutes I was there. The third girl sounded as though she was on the verge of tears. But she couldn't really say anything, I guess, as the other girls weren't being overtly offensive.

And this is where I see words as being so powerful and meaningful, but in a very subtle way. It was all about the context, and the tone in which those things were said.

Of course c*nt, slut, bitch etc are words that can be used in a very hurtful and offensive way. Personally, though, I don't find these or any words to be inherently offensive myself.

awec

This post has been deleted.

flowerchild

Kimia wrote: »

Calling someone a c*nt is comparing them to a vagina, and by doing this, conveys the idea that a vagina is something bad, offensive, and distasteful. This, I think, is what the OP and the author felt was worthy of discussion.

True.

Kimia wrote: »

And to the person who said that words don't mean anything? What a pile of steaming bull****. I've never heard anything more ridiculous in my entire life. Words are powerful, compelling and deeply meaningful - they are the way we communicate with each other ffs. They mean everything.

Very true.

Lyaiera wrote: »

I disagree Wibbs. I am quite in favour of the word "Bitch." I think it recognises that there can be a form of female nastiness that is quite distinct and separate to the male ideas of acceptable or unacceptable behaviour. I think it is a truly useful word that to a degree delineates male and female interaction.

I'd love to actually sit down and talk to someone about this, and tease out my ideas. I don't think there are many words that are so unequivocally used and owned by woman, to describe women, amongst women.

Yes, it can be used broadly by a lot of people to apportion something to obviously feminine expression, but that's where it's value is. It's obviously feminine. Even if a huge amount of people don't grasp the severity and impact of the word, it is very much particular and quite involved when it is used amongst people who do understand it. Because, as people have said, when someone says, "Bitch" That can cause a lot of breaths to be drawn, much more so than ****. And that's because it is more powerful. But I do think it's more powerful because it's a word female understanding owns, rather than male understanding.

My husband was coaching a woman who was seeking to change the performance of a bunch of highly sexist men. At one point she raised the question of what they were thinking. He leaned in very close and said "Bitch!!!". She was initially very shocked and then laughed out loud. After that she had no problems taking on their performance directly.

I don't know about female vs male understanding, but sometimes I think we risk pulling back from being strong because we dread being labelled as "a bitch". The term can be used just as much by men towards women as woman to woman. The key issue is that the same behaviour from a guy may not elicit the label.

That said, some women can be very destructive towards other women. Is it being a bitch or is it simply undermining, controlling sabotage of others?

LittleBook

Sharrow wrote: »

I think it's thought provoking, esp the first part and yes the second part of the extract is a sharing of a personal experience and it is subjective and american women do have a very different reaction to the use of that word.

Wibbs wrote: »

IMHO a word way worse than C U Next Tuesday? A word with more real world impact, both subtle and overt and used a lot more? Bitch.

Interestingly (to me anyway ), for my American girlfriend, the word "bítch" is practically a term of endearment.

The Black Oil

Lia_lia wrote: »

I don't care, it's only a word. In France it's also a swear word but it's seen as a lot less harsh. Everyone over there bloody says it.

I don't know the French word, but they were definitely liberal in the use of putain (whore) when I did a French exchange in 2000. Sitting in traffic, various situations - 'putain!'

Anyway, whilst reading this thread yesterday I heard a kid outside on the street should 'come back here ya raspberry c***'...I did cringe a bit because the child was pretty young.

Wibbs

The Sweeper wrote: »

Because it's never easy being that person.

I dunno, I've no problem with being that person if I see the piss being taken out of me or someone else, party or not. Now unless it was a serious breach of the social rules, I'd not make a scene about it as I'd consider the others there, but the author of the joke would know about if afterwards.

You are overreacting. You are making a big deal. You are being hysterical. You're mental. You're being a drama queen. You're making a fuss. It was just a joke. Jesus like, how highly strung are you? It was just a joke.

It depends on the person taking offence too though TS. If the person doesn't generally overreact, make a big deal and isn't a drama llama then it carries far more weight. If they're usually the whingers or handwringers of the group I'd tend to two reactions; "oh FFS" and more "what the hell was the host (not) thinking when they thought this would go over well".

pickarooney wrote: »

Every time someone trots this out they never seem to be able to explain why twat and pussy are not just as offensive to them as cünt.

Very good point. I'd say it's cultural/learned response. On the latter, look how many have namechecked "moist" and it's well possible they do so on the back of a Des Bishop joke(three words rarely associated). Throw in what Awec wrote...

awec wrote: »

What is unfortunate is when a lady with an audience (in this case Naomi Wolf), instructs women on what to be offended by.

kimia wrote:

Calling someone a c*nt is comparing them to a vagina, and by doing this, conveys the idea that a vagina is something bad, offensive, and distasteful. This, I think, is what the OP and the author felt was worthy of discussion.

OK K but tease out that discussion further and as pickarooney ask why pussy and twat don't appear to have nearly the same weight, yet should illicit the same response as they refer to the same thing. I'd also seriously debate that calling someone a c*nt is comparing them to a vagina. Take other swear words. When I say "my fcuking car won't start" I'm not thinking of fornicating automobiles, nor am I denigrating the act of sex. If I call someone a fcuking dickhead I'm certainly being insulting, but not thinking of the actual word picture this conjures up. Thank god! :eek:

Actually, in the context of Wolf's type genderist thinking let's examine further the various swear words/insults that reference the male member. These tend to be used more and are considered more acceptable in general. This very website's (very good)golden rule of "Don't be a dick" an example. Now Wolf would suggest it's a phallocentric type world, so how come every one of those words is (outside the bedroom) used to denigrate? How does that work then? How does comparing someone to what is supposed to be the sex organ of those in a position of power denigrate? Surely rather than insult, being a dick would be seen as a good thing?

She says this "Because of the subtlety of the mind-body connection, words about the vagina are also what philosopher John Austin, in his 1960 book How to Do Things with Words, calls "performative utterances", often used as a means of social control". OK then what social control is going on with words referencing the male member, words that are more socially acceptable? If c*unt(though not the other words it seems) is exercising "social control" then dick etc is also exercising social control over men. But of course it's not and neither is the word in this thread. She's just trying to find a pattern where none exists. If she truly believes her position then she must also by extension believe that the male member is equally disgusting. Which of course is a nonsense, just like her "theory".

LittleBook wrote:

Interestingly (to me anyway:) ), for my American girlfriend, the word "bítch" is practically a term of endearment.

Yea remember that one hit wonder song "Bitch" by Meredith Brooks? I'm happy to report her name escaped me and had to look it up. Very popular song for a time. Good god, do not get me started about that songs lyrics... A better title may have been "I'm a self involved, self indulgent unbalanced child who thinks my possession of bewbs exonerates me of being a mentaller", though hard to fit on the CD cover.

fits

Has noone posted the Azealia Banks song yet?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3Jv9fNPjgk

pickarooney

flowerchild wrote: »

I don't know about female vs male understanding, but sometimes I think we risk pulling back from being strong because we dread being labelled as "a bitch". The term can be used just as much by men towards women as woman to woman. The key issue is that the same behaviour from a guy may not elicit the label.

I would say often the opposite behaviour from a guy would be more likely to earn him the label. A woman acting aggressively might be called a bitch while a man acting meekly is called the same thing. Or a person of either sex complaining instead of acting. There's no real sense to it.

flowerchild

pickarooney wrote: »

I would say often the opposite behaviour from a guy would be more likely to earn him the label. A woman acting aggressively might be called a bitch while a man acting meekly is called the same thing.

Then that is homophobic since it clearly makes a link between being gay and being submissive.

pickarooney wrote: »

Or a person of either sex complaining instead of acting.

This is interesting. I have always seen the reaction against endless complaints but not noticed the silent omission - willingness to act.

pickarooney

flowerchild wrote: »

Then that is homophobic since it clearly makes a link between being gay and being submissive.

I don't follow. There's no reference to homosexuality in anything I mentioned.

flowerchild

pickarooney wrote: »

I don't follow. There's no reference to homosexuality in anything I mentioned.

Referring to a guy being meek as a bitch is clearly making a homophobic reference 'you are my bitch'.

Honey-ec

flowerchild wrote: »

Referring to a guy being meek as a bitch is clearly making a homophobic reference 'you are my bitch'.

Er, not it's not, it's deriding him for having perceived feminine qualities. Which is ironic, because women are generally called bitches for not being feminine enough. Which I'm pretty sure is what Pickarooney was getting at in the first place.

Rosy Posy

fits wrote: »

Has noone posted the Azealia Banks song yet?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3Jv9fNPjgk

my word! I had to google the lyrics to understand what she was saying...I hope this isn't the kind of stuff my kids will be listening to in a few years time- I feel old and prudish. It seems so disrespectful to everyone including herself.

awec

This post has been deleted.

Millicent

awec wrote: »

Disrespectful? Really?

It's not exactly "All Kinds of Everything", to be fair.

Toast4532

Doesn't bother me in the slightest, I use it myself every now and then.