March for Choice 29th September

OurLadyofKnock

Even under pressure from King Herod, I decided to raise my child - but 33 years later the Romans whacked him.

Min

I wouldn't be seen dead at it, unborn or born.

dark crystal

Actor wrote: »

Oh God forgives alright. But you must repent. If you die with a tarnished soul, chances are you're going to hell. If you repent, you spend time in purgatory in proportion to the severity of your repented sins.

If you really believe that fairy story, then why on earth are you sitting in judgement? Did he appoint you the moral judge, jury and executioner in his place?

Your God supposedly imbued his creations (us) with free will, so instead of sending us all to hell for using that free will, perhaps he should repent and consider just where he went wrong when creating us in the first place.

I have my own issues with abortion, but sitting in judgement on people who dare to make mistakes in their lives by condemning them to an eternity burning in hell reeks of arrogance. WHat is it the bible says?.........judge not lest you be judged and let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

By all means, voice your opinions on the rights and wrongs of abortion if you so wish, but leave the fire and brimstone judgements out of it.

muppeteer

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Why? You only run away and hide in the hills every time the arguments get too hot for you.

Your anti abortion arguments are simplistic at best. You declare that taxonomically speaking the zygote is "Human". You then leap from there to declaring it therefore has a soul and rights and has to be protected from harm like any other human. Covering the chasm you just leapt over with empty rhetoric in the hope that no one notices it is there.

Your entire position in other words is based on one tiny thing. The attempt to base the entire discourse of Human Ethics and Rights on Taxonomy. Thats it. Your entire position in a nutshell. Justified to yourself then by pretending there is a god.... a position you also have zero evidence for.... and declaring that this god just happens to agree with you whole heartedly.

I have yet to see a proper justification from the pro life crowd of why the huge assumption that a human zygote is deserving of any of the same protections and ethical value as a conscious and independent human being. All they seem to do is, like phil above, is appeal to the fact(correctly so) that a zygote and fetus are human and alive. Never have I seen a justification as to why that those two properties are the be all and end all for their position. It certainly isn't for the rest of the world or even themselves, as we kill/allow things to die that are human and alive every day.
Has anyone actually come across such an argument that doesn't fall into the above flaw?

AnonoBoy

Actor wrote: »

They need 24 hour security because what they're doing is morally wrong to most sensible people.

No. You don't need security against people disapproving of what you do.

You only need security if someone is going to attack you.

So are you saying that abortion doctors should be attacked? Are you advocating violence? Lordy Lordy Lordy! What would your God think of that sort of attitude?

nozzferrahhtoo

muppeteer wrote: »

I have yet to see a proper justification from the pro life crowd of why the huge assumption that a human zygote is deserving of any of the same protections and ethical value as a conscious and independent human being. All they seem to do is, like phil above, is appeal to the fact(correctly so) that a zygote and fetus are human and alive. Never have I seen a justification as to why that those two properties are the be all and end all for their position. It certainly isn't for the rest of the world or even themselves, as we kill/allow things to die that are human and alive every day.
Has anyone actually come across such an argument that doesn't fall into the above flaw?

no that is pretty much it really. Except for the showing of photos of aborted fetuses which they think makes an argument, but it doesn't. Oh and of course the making up "souls" and declaring the zygote has one.

But otherwise no, the argument you mention above it pretty much the only one they have. As if Taxonomy is a way to root a discourse on ethics and human rights.

nozzferrahhtoo

philologos wrote: »

I've responded to the objection of the capacity of the emotion or conscious thought, it's about as arbitrary and as meaningful as claiming that I consider that life begins when you finally unicycle while juggling 82414 pears up Kilamanjaro while playing Handel's Messiah.

Bull, they are not equivalent at all. YOUR one has literally nothing to do with the conversation of Human Rights and whether the fetus should get any. Literally nothing.

The faculty of conscious thought however is the very foundation of human rights. Without it there would BE no such thing. Except in the heads of you theist types who like to claim god exists and morality and rights are things that objectively exist outside the human mind.

Since THAT claim is unsubstantiated however then consciousness is not just some arbitrary point in a discussion on human rights. It is THE point in a discussion of human rights and your attempt to pretend otherwise is just lame.

Morag

The route for the march has gone up, it will be kicking off at 2pm at the spire and there will be performers and face painters there.

https://maps.google.ie/maps/ms?msid=212386388029326822972.0004ca4b11654d7619d7d&msa=0

Wompa1

Celebrating the right to terminate a pregnancy?

Where's my successful white male age 18-35 celebration?

dr.bollocko

Wompa1 wrote: »

Celebrating the right to terminate a pregnancy?

Where's my successful white male age 18-35 celebration?

That is one of the more hilarious misrepresentations I have read in a while.

Wompa1

dr.bollocko wrote: »

That is one of the more hilarious misrepresentations I have read in a while.

of what? I'd get calling it a protest but a celebration? If the point it to open peoples eyes who may be on the fence maybe something a little more succinct and low key would be better?

UCDVet

Am I the only one that is PRO-Abortion?

Wompa1

UCDVet wrote: »

Am I the only one that is PRO-Abortion?

Probably. Pro-Choice sounds less abortiony

Morag

Wompa1 wrote: »

of what? I'd get calling it a protest but a celebration? If the point it to open peoples eyes who may be on the fence maybe something a little more succinct and low key would be better?

The point is that many people in this country are pro choice but have not felt able to stand up and say so as it has been taboo and all to often they have faced the risk of being called 'baby murders'.

So it is a gathering of people who are pro choice who can unashamedly, unabashedly and happily say they are pro choice in a public way and be there Surrounded by others who are pro choice and know they are not alone.
So that is worth celebrating.

ScumLord

philologos wrote: »

Y
The burden of proof as far as I'm concerned lies with those who are making claims that fly in the face of what we already know biologically. That is that the foetus is not alive biologically, that is that the embryo is not alive biologically and that they aren't formed of human biological material.

Nobody can claim an embryo isn't "alive" even one cell is alive but on the grand scale of life it's no more alive than a clump of bacteria. Large bacteria colonies have all sorts of communication going on between the other cells in the colony they don't act independently.

It is true that an embryo contains all the data that a child would have and if you want to see the raw genome as the person you could say that once the sperm and egg combine to come up with the unique code that is a new person that code is the same thing as a living person. I don't see it that way though.

If I build a PC it can look like a complete PC until you turn it on, the fact is it's not really a PC until I install an operating system on it. A person isn't just the body, it isn't just the mind and a few lines of code don't make a person either.

On a side note I was watching QI the other night and Fry said that each sperm contains around 37mb of data, so each male ejaculate contains around 15TB of data. Nature is willing to kill 15TB of data just so one 37mb sperm might turn into a person. The data is essentially worthless to nature, it's one small part of the puzzle and it makes no odds if individual lines of code get wasted.

Slurryface

The right to regulate ones body is surely inalienable.
In my opinion, if a woman wants a termination then she should not be answerable to anyone for that decision.
What I dont get is why, bearing in mind abortion is legal in Ireland, has nobody opened a termination centre?

My name is URL

Slurryface wrote: »

The right to regulate ones body is surely inalienable.
In my opinion, if a woman wants a termination then she should not be answerable to anyone for that decision.
What I dont get is why, bearing in mind abortion is legal in Ireland, has nobody opened a termination centre?

It isn't

Morag

Slurryface wrote: »

The right to regulate ones body is surely inalienable.
In my opinion, if a woman wants a termination then she should not be answerable to anyone for that decision.
What I dont get is why, bearing in mind abortion is legal in Ireland, has nobody opened a termination centre?

It's not legal and currently with the Ruling of the High Court in the X case 20 not being legislated for anyone who preforms an abortion even on themselves can face a 12 year prison sentence.

Morag

This is on this weekend as well.

ATTENTION Change of date and venue. Friday 28th at The Complex, Benburb St. Please note that this is a new location of The Complex i.e. it has recently moved from Smithfield.

Screen for Choice
7.30pm Friday 28th September
Decriminalisation of Abortion Action Global Day 2012
at C2, Benburb St, Dublin 7 by Collins Barracks Luas Stop

Making Change with Art and Film: Irish Premiere of ‘X is for Anonymous’ headlines a programme of selected short films and works on Choice followed by a discussion with film-makers and participants facilitated by Katie Gillum, Disposable Film Festival.

Screen for Choice is a programme of selected films and artworks on the theme of reproductive rights. A new film ‘X is for Anonymous’ about where we stand in Ireland 20 years after the X case ruling will be premiered by student film-makers Heather Browning, Rosi Leonard and Kerry Guinan. The event will also feature short films and excerpts on issues, actions, and ideas about reproductive health and abortion access curated by Katie Gillum, Film-maker and MD of Disposable Film Festival. Gillum will facilitate a discussion with producers, film participants and audience on the context and impact of these works exploring questions such as:
How does criminalised or inaccessible abortion affect political engagement and discourse as demonstrated through these works?
How can art and performance engage communities often inaccessible to political organizing and social movements?
Can art and performance be used as part of strategic social and political movement?

Featured Artists and Film-makers include Heather Ault, Perform for Choice Collective, Paula Geraghty, Anne-Marie Kilshaw, Heather Browning, Rosi Leonard, Kerry Guinan. More TBC

All welcome. Suggested donations €5/€3
Screen for Choice supports March for Choice in Ireland, Dublin 2pm on 29th September 2012

Queries to:
The Complex E: thecomplexgallery@hotmail.com | T: 01 5446922 | M: 086 2471062
Siobhán Clancy E: info@siobhanclancy.com
Heather Browning E: productionsrhk@gmail.com

www.facebook.com/irishchoicenetwork
www.thecomplex.ie

Morag

Due to the number interested in attending Screen for Choice has been moved to
Filmbase in Templebar.

krudler

Slurryface wrote: »

The right to regulate ones body is surely inalienable.
In my opinion, if a woman wants a termination then she should not be answerable to anyone for that decision.
What I dont get is why, bearing in mind abortion is legal in Ireland, has nobody opened a termination centre?

Eh, its not? thats sort of the point of the pro-choice rally, legislation for the x case and decriminalisation of women who want terminations.

philologos

ScumLord wrote: »

Nobody can claim an embryo isn't "alive" even one cell is alive but on the grand scale of life it's no more alive than a clump of bacteria. Large bacteria colonies have all sorts of communication going on between the other cells in the colony they don't act independent

An embryo differs to a single cell insofar as the embryo is the defacto life that is born, that is a child, that is a teenager, an adult and ultimately the very life that dies. There's no comparison. The comparison to bacteria is very weak when we consider that the embryo is the same life. When I was in embryonic form, that was still the same life I now live.

ScumLord wrote: »

It is true that an embryo contains all the data that a child would have and if you want to see the raw genome as the person you could say that once the sperm and egg combine to come up with the unique code that is a new person that code is the same thing as a living person. I don't see it that way though.

Not just the data. It is the very same life biologically.

ScumLord wrote: »

If I build a PC it can look like a complete PC until you turn it on, the fact is it's not really a PC until I install an operating system on it. A person isn't just the body, it isn't just the mind and a few lines of code don't make a person either.

The life is "turned on" from conception. It grows and develops from that point.

ScumLord wrote: »

On a side note I was watching QI the other night and Fry said that each sperm contains around 37mb of data, so each male ejaculate contains around 15TB of data. Nature is willing to kill 15TB of data just so one 37mb sperm might turn into a person. The data is essentially worthless to nature, it's one small part of the puzzle and it makes no odds if individual lines of code get wasted.

I don't see what this adds to your point. Sperm is a prerequisite to the human life. It in and of itself cannot form a human life. It is a prerequisite. Likewise of an ova.

The pro-choice argument still is logically unsound when it comes to considering the reality of what actually happens.

nachocheese

I'm pro-choice but would never bother attending a march, they accomplish nothing.

The Government here is ran by the elderly who themselves are ran by an organisation of theives and pedophiles. We passed a ****ing blasphemy law in 2009, do you really think something of logic is going to make its way into our legislation any time soon?

Anyone with half a brain should be worrying about financing the one way ticket out of here because if Ireland has proven one thing in the boom and bust, it's that not a ****ing thing changes here.

Morag

philologos wrote: »

The pro-choice argument still is logically unsound when it comes to considering the reality of what actually happens.

Say wut?

Seriously are you saying that people who are pro choice and women who have abortions don't know what an abortion is?

Come of it that is another pro life myth, that if only we relasise what we are doing or being sportive of that abortion will stop. We know full well.

Morag

nachocheese wrote: »

I'm pro-choice but would never bother attending a march, they accomplish nothing.

The Government here is ran by the elderly who themselves are ran by an organisation of theives and pedophiles. We passed a ****ing blasphemy law in 2009, do you really think something of logic is going to make its way into our legislation any time soon?

Anyone with half a brain should be worrying about financing the one way ticket out of here because if Ireland has proven one thing in the boom and bust, it's that not a ****ing thing changes here.

The EU Courts of human Rights has directed the government to legislate for the ruling from the X case which was from our own high court. There is over sight and the government has to report back to the EU court of human rights with reports of progress on this matter.

The march is important cos it makes pro choice people more visible and
hopefully it will result in people who are pro choice taking the time to
lobby thier TDS who then can't turn around and say they don't have a mandate.

sethasaurus

People need to face the facts that people will do what they have to do, what they want to do, or whatever they have the guts to do.

The real problem with abortion issues is that in this country, the current choices are:

KIDS

CONDOMS

or

COATHANGERS

nozzferrahhtoo

philologos wrote: »

An embryo differs to a single cell insofar as the embryo is the defacto life that is born, that is a child, that is a teenager, an adult and ultimately the very life that dies. There's no comparison. The comparison to bacteria is very weak when we consider that the embryo is the same life. When I was in embryonic form, that was still the same life I now live.

An arbitrary distinction though. The "Life" that was "you" in potential... potential being the card you are playing here.... was just as much there in potential the moment before conception, the moment the sperm was flung from your father, the moment your father started waving his testicles in front of your mothers genitals waiting to penetrate, and even techniaclly the night before when your father was eating the steak, the energy and materials from which were to go into the materials which produced the ejaculate in the first place.

A lot of Eastern, and some Western, Philosophies for example do not make the arbitrary distinction you do for example. They think of the creation of life as being a one time only event. Some the first rise of "Life" on this planet. Some of them the first injection of the "soul" into humanity to raise them above the animals.

From that one time event everything else is just a kind of "Lava lamp" effect. There is only one pool of life and each individual is just a blob of it. Like in a lava lamp sometimes there are a few blobs, sometimes loads, sometimes they split and become more blobs, but it is all life the whole way along and nothing is added to it or removed from it. Just different expressions of it.

So I really see no useful way of applying your arbitrary and cherry picked "conception" line in the sand and no arguments from you supporting it. You just draw the line and stand over it as if the line speaks enough for itself. It does not. Pretty much the same tactic you use when arguing for the existence of god actually. When you are not running away from such arguments that it.

philologos

Sharrow wrote: »

philologos wrote: »

The pro-choice argument still is logically unsound when it comes to considering the reality of what actually happens.

Say wut?

Seriously are you saying that people who are pro choice and women who have abortions don't know what an abortion is?

Come of it that is another pro life myth, that if only we relasise what we are doing or being sportive of that abortion will stop. We know full well.

What I meant was that many pro-choice people continue to deny that the embryo / foetus is a human life. I'd respect honesty - if people said they thought killing was the best option, because that's what it is - killing.

Slurryface

My name is URL wrote: »

It isn't

The supreme court says different in the X case, even the anti-choice Talabanis admit the X case Judgement makes abortion legal in Ireland.

Slurryface

Sharrow wrote: »

It's not legal and currently with the Ruling of the High Court in the X case 20 not being legislated for anyone who preforms an abortion even on themselves can face a 12 year prison sentence.

Wrong, by its very nature the X case judgement finds that any blanket ban on abortion is repugnant to the constitutiion. Nobody in anti-choice gang even denies that fact.