ICABS Watch [READ POST #1 BEFORE POSTING]

Sparks

ICABS calls for protest against hare coursing club fundraiser:

Hare coursing club lotto fundraiser in today's Lixnaw Parish newsletter. Please complain to bishop http://www.banbloodsports.com/petition-lixnaw.htm …

Sparks

John Fitzgerald attempts to link fieldsports to a violent attack on a dog with an axe:

It’s difficult to get through the message that type of activity is wrong when wee have people calling thjemselves “sportsmen” terrorising, tormenting, and cruelly killing animals for fun…some bloodsports are banned but others are permitted by law.

edit: reported as defamatory to thejournal.ie, removed.

fathersymes

http://www.banbloodsports.com/ln130221.htm

Gathering removes hunting from events website
21 February 2013

A big thank you to The Gathering for responding positively to an ICABS appeal and removing hunting from its website. One of the deleted listings was for a fair which promotes itself as being "supported by all the main hunting organisations" and includes a digging contest, "rabbits, lurchers and long nets" and hunt horse and hound displays.

Sparks

John Fitzgerald (CACS) in todays Independent

...
Carted stag hunting was banned in 2010. Yet rumours have abounded for months that the activity continues on a small scale in parts of Meath and north Co Dublin.

Anyone with knowledge of illegal stag hunting should contact the gardai or the National Parks and Wildlife Service. The Wildlife Amendment Act 2010 states that "a person who hunts deer with two or more dogs shall be guilty of an offence".

...

Grizzly 45

ICABS website


Ask Dunnes Stores to lift its ban on animal groups
22 February 2013

Dunnes Stores has banned animal groups from fundraising at its stores. Ask management at the supermarket chain to lift the ban and allow struggling animal groups to resume fundraising activities.

Despite complaints and protests, Dunnes Stores has so far refused to reveal what prompted its decision to reject groups who are working hard to try and alleviate the suffering of animals across Ireland. Labour Party Senator, John Kelly, raised the issue in Seanad Eireann on 12th February 2013 and called for answers.

Grizzly 45

From the AFAR website

Bestiality Reports invited and condoned on Irish Escort website.


We in AFAR are trying to get the Escort Ireland website to remove all references to Bestiality.

A section where visitors are invited to "confess" acts of bestiality and apparently are given virtual absolution by Father Casey should be removed, this was reported to us by concerned members of the public.

Grizzly 45

22 February 2013
NPWS trappers to kill foxes, crows and shoot mink through their brains

The National Parks and Wildlife Service has announced that a six month mink killing operation will begin next week. The body is spending funds on employing trappers despite an earlier admission that "escapes from mink fur farms would invalidate any attempts to eradicate feral populations". Foxes and crows are also to be targetted up to the end of July and throughout September.

A report in the Irish Examiner (February 22nd, 2013) outlines that "the mink will be captured in live traps set close to the nesting sites of protected birds" and that trappers have been instructed to kill the mink "humanely".

Sparks

From John Fitzgerald on twitter:

New Evidence of hare coursing cruelty in Ireland...The "Irish Cup": http://www.youtube.com/watch?Zcx9n7SEpTI# …!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=el8RIHTQA_U …!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=el8RIHTQA_U

Copied on to other groups:
https://twitter.com/AnimalAbusers
https://twitter.com/A_W_Global_HQ
https://twitter.com/P4AIreland
https://twitter.com/StopFurTrade
https://twitter.com/StopAnimalPain

And to the Minister for Agriculture, Food & Marine
https://twitter.com/simoncoveney

Sparks

From ICABS on twitter:

Feb24 wrote:

Ask Limerick Racecourse to reject hare coursing http://www.banbloodsports.com/ln130219.htm Email: info@limerickraces.ie Tel: 061320000

Feb24 wrote:

Shame on @LimerickRaces for turning a blind eye to the suffering of hares and hosting another coursing meet pic.twitter.com/55JMGNLpuD

fathersymes

The Collected Letters of John Fitzgerald!

http://www.scribd.com/doc/118695741/Animal-Writes

fathersymes

The Irish Council Against Blood Sports has urged Limerick Racecourse to stop hosting an annual hare coursing meeting at its venue.

The JP McManus Irish Cup hare coursing meeting was held at the racecourse last weekend, and the Irish Council Against Blood Sports said the event witnessed "horrific scenes of hares being mauled and battered by muzzled greyhounds".

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/animal-rights-group-urges-racecourse-to-stop-hosting-hare-coursing-586297.html

Sparks

John Fitzgerald on twitter:

Hare Coursing at major Irish racecourse exposed! http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/animal-rights-group-urges-racecourse-to-stop-hosting-hare-coursing-586297.html …

Forwarded by him to:
https://twitter.com/thejournal_ie
https://twitter.com/IrishJournos
https://twitter.com/News__com
https://twitter.com/IrishEcho
https://twitter.com/Irishwildlife
https://twitter.com/DrBrianMay
https://twitter.com/IrishNewsTweets
https://twitter.com/spin1038
https://twitter.com/randomirishnews
https://twitter.com/politico_ie
https://twitter.com/DyaneconnorTV3
https://twitter.com/vincentbrowne
https://twitter.com/sinnfeinwomen
https://twitter.com/careforthewild
https://twitter.com/FarmersWeekly
https://twitter.com/MorningEdition
https://twitter.com/irishfemnetwork
https://twitter.com/SocialistParty
https://twitter.com/JoeHigginsTD
https://twitter.com/CRKC1
https://twitter.com/GoVeganRadio
https://twitter.com/VeganPatriot
https://twitter.com/3_News
https://twitter.com/rtenews
https://twitter.com/TheCorkNews
https://twitter.com/ShannonsideFM
https://twitter.com/JoeFinneganShow
https://twitter.com/indymediaUK
https://twitter.com/Newstalkfm
https://twitter.com/jonathanhealy
https://twitter.com/LimkNewsWire
https://twitter.com/limerickpost

fathersymes

Animal rights group urges racecourse to stop hosting hare coursing

The Irish Council Against Blood Sports has urged Limerick Racecourse to stop hosting an annual hare coursing meeting at its venue.

The JP McManus Irish Cup hare coursing meeting was held at the racecourse last weekend, and the Irish Council Against Blood Sports said the event witnessed "horrific scenes of hares being mauled and battered by muzzled greyhounds".

http://www.carlow-nationalist.ie/2013/02/27/animal-rights-group-urges-racecourse-to-stop-hosting-hare-coursing/

Sparks

By ICABS on twitter:

When hunts attack pets http://www.scribd.com/doc/121981437/When-hunts-attack-pets …

http://www.scribd.com/doc/121981437/When-hunts-attack-pets

An Irish Council Against Blood Sports report into attacks on pets by hunting dogs. Also included in the report is a section focusing on the threat posed to public safety by hunting hounds.

Sparks

From the ICABS website:

Petition: Ask Limerick Racecourse to stop hosting coursing
Please join us in calling on Limerick Racecourse to stop hosting hare coursing. ICABS filmed hares being hit and severely mauled by greyhounds at a coursing meeting at Limerick Racecourse this month. Please sign the petition now

Scenes of appalling cruelty to animals have been filmed by the Irish Council Against Blood Sports at hare coursing venue, Limerick Racecourse. We witnessed hares being battered into the ground by muzzled greyhounds at the JP McManus-sponsored meeting. One hare could be heard crying out in pain before it was carried away and thrown into a box. Join us in asking Limerick Racecourse to stop hosting this disgusting activity which a majority of Irish people want outlawed and which is already illegal in the neighbouring jurisdictions of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

186 signatures so far. Lots of twittering to corral signatories. They're looking for 1000 signatures in total.

Grizzly 45

03 March 2013 Sunday independant

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/a-bad-day-for-democracy-29105483.html


Madam – It is disturbing to learn that a visitor to these shores cannot go for a quiet drink in a hotel without finding himself the subject of an online witch-hunt orchestrated by animal rights radicals.

I am referring to the report in your newspaper (Sunday Independent, February 17, 2013) concerning the Scottish singer, Paolo Nutini, whose attendance at a hunt ball in Co Westmeath provoked yet another outpouring of rage from those who seek to denormalise hunting using a variety of tactics, one of which is to mobilise a social media lynch mob against anybody in the public eye who finds disfavour with them through any association – no matter how tenuous – with hunting.
-

Sparks

Posted on twitter by ICABS:

Hunters unhappy that campaigners are exercising democratic right to speak out against cruel hunting! Comment at http://dld.bz/cmBXy

Sparks

From the Irish Examiner letters page from John Fitzgerald:

There is no excuse for hare coursing
On Feb 23 and 24, members of the Irish Council Against Blood sports attended part of the so-called “Irish Cup”

...

This footage, which can be viewed on the ICABS website banbloodsports.com bears out the content of reports filed for the 2011/12 coursing season by rangers of the National Parks and Wildlife Service (NPWS) which detail many other such instances of hares being mauled or otherwise horribly injured in this medieval pastime.

Hare coursing, already banned in many jurisdictions, is a relic of a different, less animal welfare-conscious Ireland where such practices were deemed normal and acceptable. Today there is no excuse for such public exhibitions of recreational cruelty to animals.

Sparks

From John Fitzgerald on twitter:

There is no excuse for hare coursing | Irish Examiner: http://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/letters/there-is-no-excuse-for-hare-coursing-224329.html#.UTSLIG7L9n8.twitter … via @irishexaminer

Sparks

From John Fitzgerald on twitter:

"The Gathering" condemns bloodsports! http://www.indymedia.ie/article/103365

Retweeted on request by "Animal Warriors Global", https://twitter.com/FunkyPigeon1 and https://twitter.com/ISF_Activist

Forwarded on twitter to:
https://twitter.com/tv3NewsIreland
https://twitter.com/SMurphyTV3
https://twitter.com/FergalTodayFM
https://twitter.com/TodayFMNews
https://twitter.com/politico_ie
https://twitter.com/PoliticsIE
https://twitter.com/pressassoc
https://twitter.com/MercyForAnimals
https://twitter.com/UnitedLeft
https://twitter.com/EFComrade
https://twitter.com/P4Animals
https://twitter.com/NinaAwad
https://twitter.com/Savetheanimal14
https://twitter.com/anagirlempath
https://twitter.com/BlueFoxCAFH
https://twitter.com/HoundsOff
https://twitter.com/CarlaYoung
https://twitter.com/Irishwildlife
https://twitter.com/veganmusic
https://twitter.com/OpenPaws

From Indymedia.ie (reprinted in full as the Indymedia reprinting conditions allow this):

Recreational animal cruelty takes direct hit as "The Gathering" rejects bloodsports!

Hare coursing and foxhunt clubs crave good PR. In recent days they've got the opposite: Mega pop star Paoblo Nutini denounced bloodsports after attending a hunt ball in Westmeath without realising its connection to foxhunting...and then members of the Irish Council Against Blood Sports captured horrific footage of hare maulings at the so-called "Irish Cup" coursing festival at Limerick racecourse. Now one of the most important Irish cultural iniatives of recent decades has effectively disowned the cruel baiting of live animals for "sport"...

A fox untroubled by human predators...


In a significant blow to the credibility of bloodsports in Ireland, the "The Gathering" has removeed hunting from its events website

The Irish Council Against Blood Sports has reacted to this heartening development with this statement: " A big thank you to The Gathering for responding positively to an ICABS appeal and removing hunting from its website. One of the deleted listings was for a fair which promotes itself as being "supported by all the main hunting organisations" and includes a digging contest, "rabbits, lurchers and long nets" and hunt horse and hound displays.

A spokesperson for The Gathering told ICABS that "like Failte Ireland, we do not support blood sport and will not advertise any Gathering that promotes it."

ICABS greatly welcomes this positive response. In a year when Ireland is portraying its many positives, it is appropriate to exclude bloodsport-related events. Internationally condemned hunting and hare coursing bring shame on the nation.

We are encouraging all compassionate Irish citizens, at home and abroad, to join the campaign to rid Ireland of animal cruelty and help secure a ban on hunting and coursing".

Grizzly 45

Animal Rights Milita...

[Nice original cog of the German Red Army Faction logo of a HK Mp5 and star:rolleyes:.]
The headbangers that ALF rejected for being too violent.As they breach ALF's so called nonviolence to sentinent beings rule.
Delightful bunch that dont even stop at desecrating graves of people they hate...:mad:
overview
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_Rights_Militia
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2004/oct/17/theobserver.uknews
http://www.redorbit.com/news/international/501128/uk_animal_activists_jailed_in_grave_desecration_case/
http://brianoconnor.typepad.com/animal_crackers/2004/10/more_on_grave_d.html

Sparks

Mod Note: Folks, we're wandering and losing focus. Please reread post #1. Thanks.

Grizzly 45

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/village-school-targeted-over-pigs-29119700.html


9 MARCH 2013

A village primary school has been plagued with hate mail from animal rights activists after launching a pig rearing scheme, it has been reported.

The tiny school in Suffolk, which has just 25 pupils, has been subjected to 400 complaints along with threatening emails from all over the world.

Kath Cook, the headteacher of Peasenhall Primary School, in Peasenhall, near Ipswich, told The Daily Telegraph that she has spoken to police because of the level of harassment.

yubabill1

NI minister refusing to fund hunting

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/minister-rules-out-backing-hunting-29122869.html

Sparks

John Tierney (Hunt Sabs) in todays Independent:

...
Reports have indicated that a revival of the red squirrel population is under way as the grey squirrel is being curtailed by the resurgence of the pine marten, acting as a natural brake on the grey squirrel population, thus reducing the impact on the red squirrel.

For years Ireland's hunting lobby has lectured that grey squirrels were a threat to red squirrels and that the only solution was a wholesale slaughter of the greys.

Now we find that a natural predator, who has also suffered at the trigger fingers of Ireland's gunners, is doing the job of grey squirrel control in a natural way.
...

Sparks

Courtesy of indymedia, a look at what really uneven moderation looks like ("wageslave" is one of the indymedia moderators):

some of you might be interested in reading this exchange from the mailing list on this topic
by wageslave - (personal capacity) Tue Mar 12, 2013 05:21

Those of you who are not subscribed to our mailing lists may be interested in this exchange which occurred there recently, in reference to one of the above comments and moderation of same as a result of a complaint received.

[1] contact form email

On 7 Mar 2013, at 03:00, contact@indymedia.ie wrote:

Contact Form Submission
From: Mark Dennehy ( mailto:mark.dennehy@xxx.xxxx )

As the automated link is not working, I wish to report several
examples of "playing the player" ad hominem attacks on
this story:
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/103365

Several authors refer to coursing and other fieldsports as
"bloodsports". A blood sport is one where the objective is
to see blood - coursing sees the dogs muzzled, and the conditions
arranged to try to avoid bloodshed. It is as much a bloodsport as
hurling or rock climbing. The word is being chosen specifically to
attack those involved, and since the research (see citations below)
shows that the conservation efforts made by those involved are
helping to keep the Irish Hare species off the endangered species
list, this is exceptionally unfair and defamatory.

A moderator has, however, taken exception to the language used in
defence of coursing in a reprint of a letter from the Irish Examiner
and has had no difficulty in editing such posts and referring to the
word "extremist" as a slur, despite its OED definition.
The campaigners in question have stated openly in the past a goal of
making all hunting, all fishing, all pet-owning, and all meat-eating
illegal. This is not a mainstream agenda, it simply is an extreme
agenda; hence, extremism. That is the Oxford English Dictionary
definition of the word.

Surely this is one-sided, allowing defamation from one side but
having an overly strict moderation policy on the other side of the
argument? Is this Indymedia's official editorial policy, to only
allow one side to make its case and denigrating the other side, no
matter how reasoned their argument or independent the research they
cite? Surely fair is fair and the same rules should apply to both
sides?

citations:
http://www.qub.ac.uk/sites/Quercus/Filestore/Filetoupload,
184050,en.pdf
http://www.qub.ac.uk/sites/Quercus/Filestore/Filetoupload,
134064,en.pdf
http://www.npws.ie/publications/irishwildlifemanuals/IW...0.pdf
End of Msg. Sent at 03:00:38 on 07 Thu Mar

[2] email response

Mark

You referred to a named individual as "extremist" without any real
evidence to back up this rather serious allegation in your post. We
responded to a complaint about this and examined your post. In my
opinion as moderator, your serious allegations were not backed up with
proportionate evidence and did not stand up to scrutiny. You also
broke another "no petitions" guideline which normally should have
meant your post was hidden.

However, as you are aware, the "reasoned" part of your post remained
up despite (IMHO) breaking two of our guidelines.
I think that's more than fair considering the cruel nature of what you
are defending.

Animal rights campaigners are regularly hounded and villified for
their ethical and principled stance in most other media. We try to
give them a fair hearing here and don't tolerate the kind of attacks,
or language that are levelled at them in other media.

The cruel sports you defend have a PR advantage in most other media
and, apparently, the backing of current politicians. Must you have it
all your own way in independent media as well?

Sorry, but giving equal treatment to both David and Goliath is not
really my idea of "fairness". I won't apologise for levelling the
playfield a little here Mark.

A "bloodsport" is a sport which involves chasing and possibly killing
an animal for sport. It's not an unreasonable description IMHO. It's
a "sport" and it often involves "blood". I've personally seen hares
killed in footage of coursing meets, muzzles or no muzzles. The dead
hares clearly had blood on them.

And I believe the muzzles only came into service for PR purposes in
1993, when the true nature of what went on at coursing meets was
becoming more widely known, not because coursers themselves were
having an ethical crisis of conscience and were concerned for the
welfare of the hares they used for their "sport".

This debate is not about who does more conservation work, it's about
whether such cruel "sports" are ethically justified and should be
allowed or not.
Would we let off a murderer on the grounds that when not murdering, he
does a lot of charity work as a cover??
Would we dare make the argument that because his good deeds meant more
humans were alive, he should be allowed to torture and kill a few
without censure?
So why is that argument valid in the case of animals? Why not just
help conserve the hare because it's the right thing to do?

The word "extremist" is not just a simple descriptive term as you
say. It has been strongly associated by the media with the words
"terrorism" and violence. "Extremist" and "Terrorist" are frequently
used interchangeably on news reports. It is a completely loaded and
perjorative term.
It is this unreasonable association which you (and others)
deliberately wish to perpetuate, and which we do wish to assist you in
doing.

In the US, this process of deliberate and systematic word association
has largely succeeded and has allowed peaceful animal rights activists
and ecological protesters to be demonised, considered as terrorists
and treated under severe anti terrorist legislation, with little
objection from a sleepwalking US citizenry.

We are not willing to be used by apologists such as yourself as a
vehicle for perpetuating that same process of association here.

However if you just continue to make "reasoned" arguments, citing
"independent" research, and it's all as good as you say, then I don't
see why you should need to use loaded terms like "extremist" when
referring to individual named peaceful campaigners, or be upset when
such loaded terms are replaced with more neutral ones. If what you
assert in your email is true then you should easily win out by force
of argument and quality of information sources.

Personally, however I fail to see what a bunch of men screaming as
their vicious dog chases and injures / kills a terrified hare has to
do with rationality at all. It looks to me like it's the lizard
brain that's really at work here. Paint it in any colour you like,
but what happens afterwards seems to me like just so much
rationalisation and excuses for giving in to primitive savagery.

rgds
wageslave (personal capacity)

"Thou shouldst rather be moved with pity to see a silly innocent hare
murdered of a dog,
the weak of the stronger, the fearful of the fierce, the innocent of
the cruel and unmerciful.
Therefore, all this exercise of hunting is a thing unworthy to be used
of free men."
- Thomas Moore

Sparks

Further responses on the Indymedia article:

Hi wageslave,
You can't really call that an email response, because you never sent it to me. What it really is, is you responding in public to a private email.
And it speaks volumes about indymedia's lack of concern at providing a fair platform that you do this. And as to posting in public in a "private capacity" an email which was sent to indymedia and not yourself and which was only visible to you because of your non-"private" capacity, I wonder if that's a breach of the data protection act?

As to your defamatory comments regarding my choice of words, I reject them in their entirety. Extremist and terrorist are not the same word and do not mean the same thing and merely claiming that they do does not mean that they are the same. Extremist is, however, exactly the correct word to describe groups who undertake or advocate or condone acts like property destructing, arson, releasing thousands of nonnative predators into native ecosystems (which are subsequently destroyed), or most recently, sending death threats to a Suffolk school who dared to teach their children where food comes from by rearing pigs.

As you know, we run several public mailing lists so our process is open to scrutiny. When you contact the moderators using our contact form, you are making a post to a public mailing list which can be read by anyone interested who subscribes to the list. This is clearly indicated on the submission form.
more info on lists here: https://lists.indymedia.org/

I merely reproduced that already public domain exchange here, since it's contents were not merely a simple request but were philosophical and clearly part of the debate itself.

Normally, as a courtesy when responding on the list, we also CC the person we are responding, however, after years of having such courtesy abused, I no longer CC potentially hostile posters with a personal email address for them to abuse.

The use of language is an important part of the debate and as such it belonged on the thread itself and not just on a mailing list, which is why I reproduced it here

You'll notice that I have edited out email addresses but other than that, it remains faithful to the list exchange.

In your response, again, you fail to clarify that John F. has absolutely nothing to do with the events you mention, nor have 99.9% of peaceful animal welfare campaigners. Yet, again you insist on smearing him and others in this underhand manner.

Your post essentially implies that ALL animal rights "groups" are involved with such acts instead of just a small minority. You have no proof to back this up. Extraordinary inferences require an extraordinary level of proof. You have not produced this. Not even close.
It is rather like saying "all people who follow Islam are terrorists". No. It's a small radical minority.

In fact, more and more frequently, campaigns of dissent are infiltrated by paid provocateurs who advocate emotive / violent actions which are then splashed across newspapers to undermine the campaign as a whole. Such incidents are documented, even on this very site. Who is to say some / all of the incidents you cite are not also a result of such infiltration?

I recommend you and others research the "kennedy stone" affair as a single example of this:
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/97967

Regarding the school incident, personally I think it is laudable that children are educated as to where their food comes from, but surely it would be more realistic and educational if, as part of that education, they were filed through the local slaughterhouse to see reality in all it's gruesome industrial savagery, rather than some fake staged and sanitised affair using a few extra and unnecessary pig deaths. Guaranteed there would be even more animal rights campaigners in the next generation if they did it that way! It was wrong to threaten anyone, but a protest would certainly be justified, to highlight the complete hypocrisy and also the lack of concern for animal life.

This small minority you refer to damage the perception of animal rights campaigners by the public, as do posts like yours in national newspapers or popular websites using deliberate "have you stopped beating your wife" rhetoric and perjorative language. I have a problem with both.

Mark, you are free to express your philosophical opinions here and debate them. However you are not free to publish deliberate personal smears, untruths or deliberately perjorative language aimed at named peaceful campaigners on this site. It is "playing the player". If you want to do that in public, then might I suggest you start your own blog.

wageslave, to say that the contents of a mailing list which requires an approved subscription and a password in order to access it, is somehow in the public domain is very obviously wrong. I don't have access to the list, for example, so couldn't see it.

To say it was an email conversation and imply it was an email conversation with me while not sending me the email was obviously wrong.

To say I was stating that all animal rights groups were involved is also obviously wrong. It is your reading, not my writing that is at fault here.

To condone, even partly as you have done, the sending of death threats to a children's school over a philosophical difference of opinion is monstrously wrong. To advocate for it, to applaud it, to actually do it - as has obviously been done by animal rights extremists - is beyond wrong and is why the word "extremist" is the correct and accurate one to use.

Meanwhile, you continue to use terms like "bloodsport" in a perjorative manner. Coursing changed its rules and its operating manner, it did research into how to minimise mortality to the hares, and it continues to do so - thus they aim to <i>avoid</i> blood, not seek it out as you imply. And what they do has been proven in peer-reviewed research carried out by animal welfare university groups to be highly beneficial to the Irish Hare species, and to be beneficial to the 96.9% of the hares who are tagged and re-released. So the evidence shows that the word "bloodsport" is pure defamation and nothing more. It's the very definition of the word "slur" that you used erroneously earlier.

Your moderation here is wrong, wrong, wrong. And frankly given your record (your horrific celebration of the accidental drowning of a CEO of the Irish Coursing Club here, for example: http://www.indymedia.ie/article/98105 ), a review of this biased "moderation" you're carrying out is called for by the other indymedia moderators.

edit: it seems that some of these have been deleted from the indymedia page.

Sparks

...yet more discussion on indymedia editorial policy.

ahem!
by wageslave - (personal capacity) Wed Mar 13, 2013 16:34

wageslave, to say that the contents of a mailing list which requires an approved subscription and a password in order to access it, is somehow in the public domain is very obviously wrong. I don't have access to the list, for example, so couldn't see it.

It's completely free and public. You are free to join this list, as are any members of the public who care to do so. You do have access to the lists if you care to bother. Your ineptitude or apathy on the matter is not my fault

To say it was an email conversation and imply it was an email conversation with me while not sending me the email was obviously wrong.

it was an exchange on an email list. As far as I knew, you were a member of the list.
By using the contact form you were submitting an email to an open public mailing list. That is completely clear from the wording on the contact form. It's not my fault if you can't understand simple english either.

As a courtesy moderators sometimes CC people when responding to list posts but after years of taking crap from people like yourself, I no longer CC potential email abusers with my personal email address. That's just inviting problems.

To say I was stating that all animal rights groups were involved is also obviously wrong. It is your reading, not my writing that is at fault here.

Hmm. I think you really need to clarify whether you believe all animal rights activists are involved in bad behaviour or just a very small minority. What percentage would you say? .5%? 1%? 90%?. And if so, are the rest just ordinary conscientious people exercising their right to protest democratically against a cruel and primative activity perhaps? Please elaborate. Currently you leave one with the impression that all animal rights campaigners are "extremists" which is complete nonsense and highly perjorative, given the clear associations and current interchangeability with the word "terrorist"

To condone, even partly as you have done, the sending of death threats to a children's school over a philosophical difference of opinion is monstrously wrong.

Complete Bull****e! I did no such thing. I said a democratic protest was probably justified to highlight the utter hypocrisy involved. That statement is libellous

To advocate for it, to applaud it, to actually do it - as has obviously been done by a tiny minority ofanimal rights extremists - is beyond wrong and is why the word "extremist" is the correct and accurate one to use.

Firstly, where is your evidence that this occurred. I'm not taking your word for anything.
Secondly, if it's indeed true then were they "extremists" or agent provocateurs? That has not been determined yet

Meanwhile, you continue to use terms like "bloodsport" in a perjorative manner.

Nope. It describes the pursuit precisely. It's a sport and there is regularly blood involved. I've seen the blood with my own eyes!

Coursing changed its rules and its operating manner, it did research into how to minimise mortality to the hares, and it continues to do so - thus they aim to avoid blood, not seek it out as you imply.

I'm calling bull**** on this. They did research into their own failing PR and acted to avoid being closed down in 1994 more like. How much ****ing college research did it take for you "caring coursers" to finally decide to put muzzles on the dogs in 1994??
Clearly you lot couldn't give a **** about the welfare of hares. If you did you wouldn't be torturing them on a regular basis, and without any muzzles until the 1990's. And you'd still be working on their conservation for it's own sake and not just so you continue to have fodder for your ugly bloodsport.

And what they do has been proven in peer-reviewed research carried out by animal welfare university groups to be highly beneficial to the Irish Hare species, and to be beneficial to the 96.9% of the hares who are tagged and re-released. So the evidence shows that the word "bloodsport" is pure defamation and nothing more. It's the very definition of the word "slur" that you used erroneously earlier.

As I stated before, If a murderer does some social work in between killings, does that exonerate him and make him no longer a murderer?. And if his social work saves a few lives, does that give him the right to kill a few people horribly without censure? What horrible twisted moral logic is that?? Don't try to fudge the issue. This is about whether the act of coursing itself is ethically justifiable or not.

Your moderation here is wrong, wrong, wrong. And frankly given your record (your horrific celebration of the accidental drowning of a CEO of the Irish Coursing Club here, for example: http://www.indymedia.ie/article/98105 ), a review of this biased "moderation" you're carrying out is called for by the other indymedia moderators.

sorry, thats not my comment. Smearing me with other people's actions which I neither committed nor advocated again are we? I see a bit of a pattern emerging here Mark! I guess you must do it to everyone you don't agree with. The more you open your mouth and the more ugly weasel words and libellous assertions pour out, the more I feel that I was probably far too soft in my moderation of your post.

If you are talking Data protection act over material you posted to a clearly described open public mailing list, then I should certainly discuss the VERY serious personal allegations that I advocated child murder made by a certain Mr Mark Dennehy on a public forum with my solicitor. He's a really sharp guy, very conscientious, and just loves taking bullies like you to task.

Indymedia editorial policy, continued
by Mark Dennehy Wed Mar 13, 2013 17:52

It's completely free and public. You are free to join this list

It is therefore, by your own admission just there, not in the public domain.

it was an exchange on an email list. As far as I knew, you were a member of the list.

That was not something you made clear in any way. You stated it was an email exchange; the only names there were yours and mine. It was a direct implication that it was an email exchange between you and me when in fact, it was nothing of the sort.

By using the contact form you were submitting an email to an open public mailing list. That is completely clear from the wording on the contact form.

What is completely clear from the wording on the contact form is that the email goes to a closed email list; not to the public domain. Nowhere in the site's terms and conditions is there provision for the publication of that email to the public domain as you so did; nowhere is there an option allowing the user to give such permission; I was not contacted asking for such permission; and for the record I did not give it in any form.

Hmm. I think you really need

Incorrect. I do not need to define already-defined terms according to your whim. The OED defines the meaning of the terms. You may disagree with this; you will simply be wrong if you choose to do so. The average commuter on the Clapham omnibus is not required to be an expert; but they are still required to speak standard English and not redefine words as to their whim.

Complete Bull****e! I did no such thing. I said a democratic protest was

You did not use the word "democratic". You said that "a protest would certainly be justified". You gave no definition of what kind of protest at all. As the topic was whether or not it was wrong to send death threats to a children's school -- and not the merits of that school's program -- it was at best an ambiguous statement, and had to be read generously even then. Any reasonable member of society would have condemned these death threats clearly and unequivocatedly ; you failed to do so. It was not merely wrong to have failed to condemn such an act without caveat; it was monstrously wrong.

Firstly, where is your evidence that this occurred. I'm not taking your word for anything.

This is a laughable statement. Surely you watch the news?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-suffolk-21629888

Or if you also fail to trust the BBC's journalistic integrity, perhaps these further links will convince you that these events transpired?
http://www.fwi.co.uk/articles/11/03/2013/138093/activis...t.htm
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/03/09/headteacher-...ef=uk
http://www.eadt.co.uk/news/peasenhall_police_monitoring...72694
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/breakingnews/offbeat/....html

Secondly, if it's indeed true then were they "extremists" or agent provocateurs? That has not been determined yet

They sent death threats to a school and now you seek excuses for those actions? A "grassy knoll" argument, if you will? You imply some third party agency orchestrated this in order to discredit a group of people whose numbers include people who openly claim credit for arson, vandalism, sabotage and ecological destruction on a massive scale? ( http://www.directaction.info/index.htm )
Again, this is monstrously wrong.

Nope. It describes the pursuit precisely. It's a sport and there is regularly blood involved. I've seen the blood with my own eyes!

You have seen something that is not intended and which the sport takes steps to avoid.
Likewise, we've seen people injured playing chess; it doesn't make it a bloodsport. Hurley is not regarded as a bloodsport; yet there is almost always blood. An egg-and-spoon race could draw blood should someone fall and scrape their knee - would this make it a bloodsport in your dictionary?

Because it doesn't in the real dictionary. The term bloodsport is already defined - it means a sport where the animal is deliberately harmed, where that is the objective. In coursing, it is not; this is why the dogs are muzzled, it is why the hare gets a head-start, it's why the animals are rested for months before the event and fed well and treated by vets. The point of coursing is the chase, not the hare being caught. The majority of hares escape without any contact with the dogs at all; and the vast majority - over 98% - survive. And the species is kept off the endangered list, a feat which none of those groups protesting coursing have the finances or manpower or influence to carry out themselves; indeed those same groups calling for hare coursing to be banned are simultaneously calling for the cessation of culling the hare's main predator, the fox -- with apparently no conception of what happens when you take a prey species that has a poor conservation outlook and a 50% to 80% mortality rate in the wild, and then stop culling its main predator species, which has seen a population explosion in recent years.

Calling for those two policies is, frankly, very nearly a deliberate attempt to wipe out a native species that we've had here since the last ice age.

I'm calling bull**** on this.

If you're going to do so, provide proof.
You're quick enough to demand it and it's been provided when you did; now cease with the defamation and baseless accusations and actually provide some proof or admit that you have none and withdraw the comment and moderate this article fairly, removing defamation from both sides. That's all that has been asked - even-handed adherence to the law and to fair play. You may phrase it differently, but all your efforts so far have been to permit one side of the argument to flout the law (and indeed, to ignore it yourself in some cases) and maintain an unfair editorial policy on behalf of Independent Media Center Ireland.

As I stated before, If a murderer
The answer is that a murderer violates the legal rights of the murdered. while animals have no legal rights in this country or any others.

They do, however, have legal protections, and coursing violates none of these protections. If it did, it would be shut down by the courts. This has not happened. ICABS has more than sufficient funding (with about €80,000 in their declared accounts) to take a court case challange if they believe they could win such a case; they have not. One can only infer therefore, that such a case would have no merit and would fail.

Your comparison therefore is a baseless slur, on a par with the "when did you stop beating your wife" fallacy and violates the indymedia editorial guidelines. You were willing to remove any comment of mine which you felt met such a description; will you now display an objective and fair editorial policy or will you take sides even when the point is put to you publicly?

If you are talking Data protection act over material you posted to a clearly described open public mailing list, then I should certainly discuss the VERY serious personal allegations that I advocated child murder made by a certain Mr Mark Dennehy on a public forum with my solicitor. He's a really sharp guy, very conscientious, and just loves taking bullies like you to task.

Please do so. I suspect he may find it quite entertaining, and if you listen while he explains the law to you and why such a case would be thrown out of court, you may even find it educational, if expensive.

edit: All above posts on moderation on indymedia have now been deleted from the article by wageslave under the heading of "trolling" and the article locked.

Sparks

John Tierney (Hunt Sabs) in the Southern Star, calling for the army to take over from the police outside of Dublin, because that would let the army handle poaching:

... it is time for a radical approach to rural policing which will only involve realigning of existing personnel and resources rather than the need for government expenditure. Namely, switching the Irish Army to a rural policing role, thereby giving this organisation a real role to play in Irish society.
As a country our need for an army is of dubious merit. But since we have one, we might put it to good use rather than its present role as an overseas police force. The rural policing role would see Army units patrolling the roads on a 24-hour basis with powers to stop, search and if required exercise reasonable force.
......
Criminals know that rural Ireland is devoid of immediate policing cover and that the chances of meeting a garda are slim.
This is especially so late at night, when unarmed gardaí prefer not to be within the vicinity of potentially armed individuals.
This is shown up by the complete failure of the gardaí and the Wildlife Service to get a handle on illegal hunting at night. This issue has caused so much damage, injury and death to animals, humans, and property.
...

Sparks

John Fitzerald (CACS) in the Irish examiner:

Papal welcome
...
I’m delighted the new pope has taken the name of the saint widely associated with kindness to animals.
...animal cruelty is still sadly widespread and in many instances permitted by law and even encouraged by governments. I would like to think that Pope Francis will follow in his footsteps in speaking out against the horrific practices that shame humanity and bring unfathomable suffering to the so-called “lesser beings”.

Saint Francis had compassion for the tortured bull, the coursed hare, and the hunted fox. So, I am confident, will Pope Francis.
...