The Gay Megathread (see mod note on post #2212)

Black Menorca

katydid wrote: »

But you would deny the LGBT people involved the right to equality...a tad hypocritical, no?

In my view there is a supremacy of rights. A child's right to know her biological mother and father being superior to an adult's right to marry.

I was rounds defeated on the day.

katydid

Black Menorca wrote: »

Go on?

You need me to quote scripture to you? Really? Ok, well John 10, for example; "“I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd."

I see no mention here of separating the sheep here...

katydid

Black Menorca wrote: »

In my view there is a supremacy of rights. A child's right to know her biological mother and father being superior to an adult's right to marry.

I was rounds defeated on the day.

The child's right to know her (or his) mother and father has nothing to do with this and you know it. There were children last Thursday with two fathers or two mothers, and those children have the same parents today. Nothing has changed and nothing will changed.

You lost. You can stop lying now.

Black Menorca

katydid wrote: »

You need me to quote scripture to you? Really? Ok, well John 10, for example; "“I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd."

I see no mention here of separating the sheep here...

One beautiful passage.

I don't see the correlation between this and women Priests though.

katydid

Black Menorca wrote: »

One beautiful passage.

I don't see the correlation between this and women Priests though.

You said the pope was a good shepherd. I pointed out that the original Good Shepherd didn't differentiate between his flock, and gave you an example.

I thought it was obvious...

eviltwin

Black Menorca wrote: »

In my view there is a supremacy of rights. A child's right to know her biological mother and father being superior to an adult's right to marry.

I was rounds defeated on the day.

So why don't Iona and MAFM support adult adoptees in the campaign to access their records?

Black Menorca

katydid wrote: »

You said the pope was a good shepherd. I pointed out that the original Good Shepherd didn't differentiate between his flock, and gave you an example.

I thought it was obvious...

The particular correlation is not obvious to me.

Black Menorca

eviltwin wrote: »

So why don't Iona and MAFM support adult adoptees in the campaign to access their records?

Excellent question.

am946745

eviltwin wrote: »

So why don't Iona and MAFM support adult adoptees in the campaign to access their records?

Or rather why should pass a law banning the deliberate design and removal of father or mother for a child's upbringing. Surrogacy should be banned (for all couples gay or straight). We should value the role a mother and father gives a child, gender balanced parenting and give preference to children to be adopted into gender balanced families. Either Women/Mothers matter or their roles mean nothing.

katydid

Black Menorca wrote: »

The particular correlation is not obvious to me.

That doesn't surprise me..

Delirium

am946745 wrote: »

Or rather why should pass a law banning the deliberate design and removal of father or mother for a child's upbringing. Surrogacy should be banned (for all couples gay or straight). We should value the role a mother and father gives a child, gender balanced parenting and give preference to children to be adopted into gender balanced families. Either Women/Mothers matter or their roles mean nothing.

so you would ban adoption and divorce to avoid the 'removal of father or mother from a child's upbringing'?

Bannasidhe

am946745 wrote: »

Or rather why should pass a law banning the deliberate design and removal of father or mother for a child's upbringing. Surrogacy should be banned (for all couples gay or straight). We should value the role a mother and father gives a child, gender balanced parenting and give preference to children to be adopted into gender balanced families. Either Women/Mothers matter or their roles mean nothing.

I read this about gender balance a lot but not one person has explained why it is so important that this balance is more important for a child than loving parents. Because that is the implication - children are 'better off' having this 'balance' than two loving parents of the same gender. Why exactly is that?

I also notice that no-one seem to advocate taking the children off lone parents - are they not entitled to 'gender balance' too - it's not so long ago that Ireland did exactly that- should we return to those days?

There also seems to be some assumptions about that children raised by same-sex couples will be kept in some isolated bubble far from people of the opposite gender to their parents. A frankly ludicrous notion. Children of lesbians and gay men have grandparents, aunts, uncles - even godparents - they go to school, they do sports. They do all the same things as the children of straight parents.

am946745

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I read this about gender balance a lot but not one person has explained why it is so important that this balance is more important for a child than loving parents. Because that is the implication - children are 'better off' having this 'balance' than two loving parents of the same gender. Why exactly is that?

I also notice that no-one seem to advocate taking the children off lone parents - are they not entitled to 'gender balance' too - it's not so long ago that Ireland did exactly that- should we return to those days?

There also seems to be some assumptions about that children raised by same-sex couples will be kept in some isolated bubble far from people of the opposite gender to their parents. A frankly ludicrous notion. Children of lesbians and gay men have grandparents, aunts, uncles - even godparents - they go to school, they do sports. They do all the same things as the children of straight parents.

The problem is designing a child to intentionally not have a mother. Most kids who did not have a father or mother that I know have always said they missed not having one. Can two men replace a mother? Is gender not important ideal for a child, if not then why do we need gender balance in other areas of society, whats wrong with all male politicians..?? ( I think there is lots wrong) Hasn't balance brought more stability?

katydid

am946745 wrote: »

The problem is designing a child to intentionally not have a mother. Most kids who did not have a father or mother that I know have always said they missed not having one. Can two men replace a mother? Is gender not important ideal for a child, if not then why do we need gender balance in other areas of society, whats wrong with all male politicians..?? ( I think there is lots wrong) Hasn't balance brought more stability?

What has any of this got to do with same sex marriage? There are same sex partners all over the country with children NOW. Marriage won't change that. It is a totally different issue.

Why are you keeping up this dishonest argument?

Bannasidhe

am946745 wrote: »

The problem is designing a child to intentionally not have a mother. Most kids who did not have a father or mother that I know have always said they missed not having one. Can two men replace a mother? Is gender not important ideal for a child, if not then why do we need gender balance in other areas of society, whats wrong with all male politicians..?? ( I think there is lots wrong) Hasn't balance brought more stability?

Do you think that ability to procreate = ability to parent?
Why do we need Child Protection laws then?


You haven't explained why this gender balance is so important by the way.
Saying the same thing in a slightly different way is not an explanation.
Do we need Daddy to teach boy man things like hunting mammoths?

am946745

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Do you think that ability to procreate = ability to parent?
Why do we need Child Protection laws then?


You haven't explained why this gender balance is so important by the way.
Saying the same thing in a slightly different way is not an explanation.
Do we need Daddy to teach boy man things like hunting mammoths?

the gender balance is important because of the dimension a Father/Mother can give. We lament that there is less than 15% male primary teachers.. Why? what difference does it make. Well the reality is that the example of a man to a boy has an enormous difference. I for example when my daughter has her period would be absolutely lost without my wife. I could read up etcc. But she knows.

The bottom line is that if Gender matters, it matters at every level of society. You can't go into hospital and see breast fed is best fed posters and that its better to breast feed your child and on the other hand say to 2 gay men its fine to buy a newborn baby from india and deny it the right to a relationship with its mother? So either gender matters.. Or it doesn't. If it dosen't matter at the most fundamental unit of society, they why in other areas of society. It would be easier for me to employ all men who don't take maternity leave and who work better than to employ women who you never know will be off having babies, sick or taking time to bring children to etc.. We need to have a balance. We need to value the postive aspects women and men have in society, and value them at all levels.

katydid

am946745 wrote: »

the gender balance is important because of the dimension a Father/Mother can give. We lament that there is less than 15% male primary teachers.. Why? what difference does it make. Well the reality is that the example of a man to a boy has an enormous difference. I for example when my daughter has her period would be absolutely lost without my wife. I could read up etcc. But she knows.

The bottom line is that if Gender matters, it matters at every level of society. You can't go into hospital and see breast fed is best fed posters and that its better to breast feed your child and on the other hand say to 2 gay men its fine to buy a newborn baby from india and deny it the right to a relationship with its mother? So either gender matters.. Or it doesn't. If it dosen't matter at the most fundamental unit of society, they why in other areas of society. It would be easier for me to employ all men who don't take maternity leave and who work better than to employ women who you never know will be off having babies, sick or taking time to bring children to etc.. We need to have a balance. We need to value the postive aspects women and men have in society, and value them at all levels.

No, the bottom lines is that LOVE matters. Ideally, a child should have parents of both genders, but they could have that and be abused and neglected. Children of single parents or of same sex parents who are loved are no worse off than children of a heterosexual couple who are loved. And they will have role models in their lives of the gender that is missing in their parental situation.

am946745

katydid wrote: »

No, the bottom lines is that LOVE matters. Ideally, a child should have parents of both genders, but they could have that and be abused and neglected. Children of single parents or of same sex parents who are loved are no worse off than children of a heterosexual couple who are loved. And they will have role models in their lives of the gender that is missing in their parental situation.

Then why not use that logic in society in general?

Bannasidhe

am946745 wrote: »

the gender balance is important because of the dimension a Father/Mother can give. We lament that there is less than 15% male primary teachers.. Why? what difference does it make. Well the reality is that the example of a man to a boy has an enormous difference. I for example when my daughter has her period would be absolutely lost without my wife. I could read up etcc. But she knows.

The bottom line is that if Gender matters, it matters at every level of society. You can't go into hospital and see breast fed is best fed posters and that its better to breast feed your child and on the other hand say to 2 gay men its fine to buy a newborn baby from india and deny it the right to a relationship with its mother? So either gender matters.. Or it doesn't. If it dosen't matter at the most fundamental unit of society, they why in other areas of society. It would be easier for me to employ all men who don't take maternity leave and who work better than to employ women who you never know will be off having babies, sick or taking time to bring children to etc.. We need to have a balance. We need to value the postive aspects women and men have in society, and value them at all levels.

Yet the children raised by single parents and widowed parents do fine - as do the children of same-sex couples. How do you explain that?

Just because there is not a parent of both genders does not mean there are not role models of both genders.

I ask again, do you believe gender balance is more important than love when raising a child?

katydid

am946745 wrote: »

Then why not use that logic in society in general?

Why not indeed?

uck51js9zml2yt

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Yet the children raised by single parents and widowed parents do fine - as do the children of same-sex couples. How do you explain that?

Just because there is not a parent of both genders does not mean there are not role models of both genders.

I ask again, do you believe gender balance is more important than love when raising a child?

The love my wife and I show our kids is diffrent . a fathers love is different from a mothers love and expressed differently.
Its grand having role models of the opposite gender but they are not a parent.
I know reality says there are single parents for all sorts of reasons. I know some of my family miss having their dad since he died. While their mother does a fantastic job , she cant replace what he brought to the family.
Having 2 parents of the same gender can't bring what the opposite gendered parent brings.To say they can is fantasy land.

marienbad

Millie Careful Shipwreck wrote: »

The love my wife and I show our kids is diffrent . a fathers love is different from a mothers love and expressed differently.
Its grand having role models of the opposite gender but they are not a parent.
I know reality says there are single parents for all sorts of reasons. I know some of my family miss having their dad since he died. While their mother does a fantastic job , she cant replace what he brought to the family.
Having 2 parents of the same gender can't bring what the opposite gendered parent brings.To say they can is fantasy land.

Lets say for arguments sake you are right and you are defining the ideal family ,a man and women in a loving relationship .

What should we do with those situations that don't measure up to that ideal ?

Bannasidhe

Millie Careful Shipwreck wrote: »

The love my wife and I show our kids is diffrent . a fathers love is different from a mothers love and expressed differently.
Its grand having role models of the opposite gender but they are not a parent.
I know reality says there are single parents for all sorts of reasons. I know some of my family miss having their dad since he died. While their mother does a fantastic job , she cant replace what he brought to the family.
Having 2 parents of the same gender can't bring what the opposite gendered parent brings.To say they can is fantasy land.

See - here is the thing. It's all very vague isn't it. All this talk of 'gender roles' but no details as to what this means in the real world. What exactly a male parent can do that a female cannot and visa versa.

How on Earth can you say a father's love is different from a mother's love when you have no possible way of measuring such a thing - you are assuming based on what?
How you feel?
Do you think every single father feels exactly the same way as you and expresses love the exact same way as you?

Do you have any experience of same-sex parents?
Do you listen to the people who had and say they do not feel like they missed out?

How can you possibly justify saying something is 'fantasy' when you do not know anything about it and ignore those who do?

Meta studies say there is no discernible difference, a 25 year long study showed that in fact having lesbian parents gives kids a slight advantage, the children of same-sex parents have been vocal in saying they do not feel like they missed out - ignoring the evidence to insist that what you feel is right is the fantasy.
But it is a fantasy that people tried to use to deny citizens of Ireland equal protection under the law and that is outrageous. Thankfully the vast majority do not agree with you.

Delirium

Millie Careful Shipwreck wrote: »

The love my wife and I show our kids is diffrent . a fathers love is different from a mothers love and expressed differently.
Its grand having role models of the opposite gender but they are not a parent.
I know reality says there are single parents for all sorts of reasons. I know some of my family miss having their dad since he died. While their mother does a fantastic job , she cant replace what he brought to the family.
Having 2 parents of the same gender can't bring what the opposite gendered parent brings.To say they can is fantasy land.

And neither can any other woman, as I can attest as my dad remarried after my mother died. He was of the "a child needs a mother and father" thinking, as were a lot of his friends/siblings.

I missed ( and still miss) my mother the person because of the person she was and the relationship we had. It is not because she had boobs. The exact same feelings would exist if it had been a mother/father of a same-sex couple.

Doctor DooM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Meta studies say there is no discernible difference, a 25 year long study showed that in fact having lesbian parents gives kids a slight advantage, the children of same-sex parents have been vocal in saying they do not feel like they missed out - ignoring the evidence to insist that what you feel is right is the fantasy.
But it is a fantasy that people tried to use to deny citizens of Ireland equal protection under the law and that is outrageous. Thankfully the vast majority do not agree with you.

Ah now here, bringing facts into it instead of making broad appeals to emotion is cheating, donchooknow. It's part of the librelmejiaconspiracy.

tommy2bad

marienbad wrote: »

Lets say for arguments sake you are right and you are defining the ideal family ,a man and women in a loving relationship .

What should we do with those situations that don't measure up to that ideal ?

The thing is that this " perfect family" is a very restricted and limited version of family. Not only is it one a lot of family's don't measure up to but it's one that no family can measure up to. Families are much more than mum, dad and kids, families are also uncle's, aunts, cousins, grandparents and sundry in-laws.
Theirs an aawful lot of role models of both sexes in every family. I'm not saying a mother and father don't present something special and different from two mothers, one mother or one father give but it's only in degrees.

Families are groups, small tribes, focusing on the nucleus of that institute is convenient for legislative purposes but it misses the bigger picture of what a family is and how it functions.

aloyisious

The ideal or perfect family is an ecumenical matter.

PopePalpatine

Oh, those blasted activist judges!
http://www.thejournal.ie/marriage-ref-challenge-2144931-Jun2015/

MrPudding

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Oh, those blasted activist judges!
http://www.thejournal.ie/marriage-ref-challenge-2144931-Jun2015/

Would love to know what the costs were.

MrP

katydid

MrPudding wrote: »

Would love to know what the costs were.

MrP

Hopefully very high.