Why Are Irish Rail Failing so badly

spank_inferno

steamengine wrote: »

According to AA stats on the total cost of motoring, as gleaned from their website, the minimum figure quoted is 58cent per kilometre. These stats put the perceived high cost of public transport into better perspective, whether it be train or bus - even walk up fares !!!

It is a bit puzzling alright, as when you own a car you just factor in fuel costs and that's it. Nevertheless, the true cost of motoring is as above. Logic can be difficult to understand by times.

Interesting statistic.

I worked it out for my own circumstance using our car and the per KM rate works out as 29c per kilometre.
And the above calculation includes the recent €30k purchase cost of our car (spread over a 10 year lifespan we hope to have it).
if I exclude the purchase cost its 17c per KM.

But I suppose its averages.

bk

steamengine wrote: »

According to AA stats on the total cost of motoring, as gleaned from their website, the minimum figure quoted is 58cent per kilometre. These stats put the perceived high cost of public transport into better perspective, whether it be train or bus - even walk up fares !!!

That is all fine and good and it is the reason I don't own a car.

However it also ignores the sunk cost nature of cars. Once you have already bought a car (for whatever reason), paid road tax, maintained it, insured it, you have already paid for a large portion of this cost and only have the petrol cost. The petrol cost then works out cheaper then the cost of public transport, making it more cost effective for a person who already owns a car to use it over public transport.

That is why there is a very strong argument to switch VAT, duty, road tax and maybe even insurance from being front loaded, to instead been put on the price of petrol.

This would reduce the cost of owning a car, but increase the cost of actually using it. Thus it would encourage people to leave their car at home and use public transport instead.

djpbarry

bk wrote: »

That is why there is a very strong argument to switch VAT, duty, road tax and maybe even insurance from being front loaded, to instead been put on the price of petrol.

This would reduce the cost of owning a car, but increase the cost of actually using it. Thus it would encourage people to leave their car at home and use public transport instead.

I’ve long been an advocate of such a scheme, but it would almost certainly be met by major opposition on the grounds of “double taxation” and/or that it would be unfair to car-dependent rural dwellers.

Solair

The cost of motoring also varies enormously depending on your choice of vehicle!

Take for example, someone driving a hybrid or an A-rated efficiency car. Tax is very low, petrol / diesel consumption is much lower etc.

Someone driving an older-gas guzzler might be paying huge tax, huge insurance, blasting through petrol and paying over the odds for tyres, repairs, maintenance etc.

It's all highly subjective!

I can do Cork-Dublin (return) in the Prius for €52 and still have enough petrol to drive around the city centre in Dublin for a couple of days.

Annual road tax is €160.

So, to be quite honest, hands-down (other than the capital cost) it beats public transport as it gives me flexibility, speed, comfort, and reasonable costs.

Trip time about 2:45...

Cruise control at 120km/h most of the way.
Climate control was on too, and it still produced excellent results in terms of fuel consumption.

I borrowed a large Volvo to do the same trip recently and it cost me over €100 in petrol!!!!

I honestly think the way forward in Ireland in the medium-term will be some kind of plug-in rechargeable hybrids using electric power for short distances and urban driving and petrol when they're out on the open road.

The technology can only improve and reduce in cost so, I think the railways are going to have a very serious competitor that's far more flexible and far more high tech than they are.

Also, I doubt it will be long before we see hybrid long-distance coaches and even trucks. They don't have the same space constraints as a car, so it should be relatively easy to include hybrid-drive technology the costs drop and the batteries improve.

That could leave CIE's DMUs and MK4s way behind in terms of fuel consumption per passenger per km.

foggy_lad

Solair wrote: »

The cost of motoring also varies enormously depending on your choice of vehicle!

Take for example, someone driving a hybrid or an A-rated efficiency car. Tax is very low, petrol / diesel consumption is much lower etc.

Someone driving an older-gas guzzler might be paying huge tax, huge insurance, blasting through petrol and paying over the odds for tyres, repairs, maintenance etc.

It's all highly subjective!

I can do Cork-Dublin (return) in the Prius for €52 and still have enough petrol to drive around the city centre in Dublin for a couple of days.

Annual road tax is €160.

So, to be quite honest, hands-down (other than the capital cost) it beats public transport as it gives me flexibility, speed, comfort, and reasonable costs.

Trip time about 2:45...

Cruise control at 120km/h most of the way.
Climate control was on too, and it still produced excellent results in terms of fuel consumption.

I borrowed a large Volvo to do the same trip recently and it cost me over €100 in petrol!!!!

I honestly think the way forward in Ireland in the medium-term will be some kind of plug-in rechargeable hybrids using electric power for short distances and urban driving and petrol when they're out on the open road.

The technology can only improve and reduce in cost so, I think the railways are going to have a very serious competitor that's far more flexible and far more high tech than they are.

Also, I doubt it will be long before we see hybrid long-distance coaches and even trucks. They don't have the same space constraints as a car, so it should be relatively easy to include hybrid-drive technology the costs drop and the batteries improve.

That could leave CIE's DMUs and MK4s way behind in terms of fuel consumption per passenger per km.

don't forget the normal family car gives the option to carry up to 5 people for only a small increase in feul costs which is far cheaer than the cheapest web sale rail fares booked in advance which always have punitive terms and conditions.

Solair

I honestly can't see a diesel-railway system competing in the long term as road vehicles just get more and more high-tech, efficient and ultimately move towards being all-electric and as fuel costs will inevitably rise a oil becomes more and more scarce.

Electric rail has a huge advantage as it has all that fuel-efficiency for decades. Sadly, in Ireland only the DART and Luas ever took advantage of this.

You could easily convert the MK4 trains to electric by just adding two power cars to each train. However, switching the 22000 trains to electric or hybrid drive would be a huge ordeal and very expensive. It's not impossible though.

I'm sure the 22000 diesel "power packs" could be replaced for an electric power pack if it ever were needed.

The problem however, is you'd still face enormous capital outlay in converting the trains and also in electrifying the network with overhead lines and I can't see that ever happening.

However, I would think it might be worth looking at electrifying Cork-Dublin, the Dublin Commuter routes i.e. Kildare, Maynooth etc and maybe even Cork-Midleton/Cobh.

Perhaps there might even be some EU funding or long-term loans available as it could be some kind of eco-project.

Chazz Michael Michaels

Too expensive and stubbornly inflexible ticketing policy.

Solair

There would be no harm in having it in the long, long, long term plan though and ensuring that whatever space / infrastructure needs to go in for such a project is included in any re-building of stations / bridges / track relaying etc.

I can't see it happening myself either, but I do think that with IE being stuck with diesel vehicles the cost:benefit analysis of rail begins to stop making sense when compared to road transport.

Cars are DRASTICALLY more efficient than they were even a decade ago.

Given Ireland's energy production mix i.e. we have a lot of potential with wind, biomass, wave/tidal etc, as well as natural gas and our population spread, I am increasingly thinking that ESB's E-Car project might be where we should be looking and perhaps expanding it to look at E-Busses too.

As it stands, our entire economy and transport system is beholden to a bunch of nutty dictatorships in the Middle East and elsewhere as well as Russia's mood swings.

Regular instability in the Middle East = higher oil prices = higher transport costs = higher costs of everything..

We need to prioritise secure electricity grids, wind, tidal, wave, biomass, whatever we can do locally + major interconnections to the UK and onwards to France to tap friendly-nation produced nuclear and/or other power too.

Ultimately, the EU should be looking at things like developing vast solar farms in unpopulated parts of Spain for example and transmitting that power right across the EU. There are loads of possibilities.

One proposal I saw made a lot of sense - they were suggesting putting solar panels on every house / building in sunnier parts of the EU. It had almost zero visual or environmental impact, it cooled the cities / houses involved and it produced huge amounts of power.

There's loads of power within the EU, if we made a decisive effort to ween ourselves off oil for the bulk of transport operations and direct heating.

bk

Solair wrote: »

The cost of motoring also varies enormously depending on your choice of vehicle!

Take for example, someone driving a hybrid or an A-rated efficiency car. Tax is very low, petrol / diesel consumption is much lower etc.

Someone driving an older-gas guzzler might be paying huge tax, huge insurance, blasting through petrol and paying over the odds for tyres, repairs, maintenance etc.

Actually that would be an advantage of such a scheme. It rewards people for using small, fuel efficient cars.

If such a scheme was implemented across Europe, you would see a revolution in car design almost overnight.

flyingsnail

bk wrote: »

Actually that would be an advantage of such a scheme. It rewards people for using small, fuel efficient cars.

If such a scheme was implemented across Europe, you would see a revolution in car design almost overnight.

But the problem there is the people who are stuck with older cars who just cant afford to upgrade or change

bk

flyingsnail wrote: »

But the problem there is the people who are stuck with older cars who just cant afford to upgrade or change

Remember the up front cost of buying a car would decrease significantly. Making it easier for people to buy a new, much more fuel efficient car.

Also such a scheme would have to be introduced gradually over a number of years to make it fair. Each year you would have a gradual decrease in vat and duty rate and an equal increase in the duty on fuel.

So people wouldn't be hit over night.

Solair

You have to replace your car eventually anyway! It only takes about 10 years or so to have an almost complete fleet change in most countries in Europe.

Also, because a lot of the cars are actually built in Europe, it has a direct impact on the European manufacturing economy.

dowlingm

The power cars would only be a fraction of the cost required - replacing overbridges and other structures would be the major cost. Apparently the plan (such as it is) for whole system electrification involves 25kV AC outside of the DART zone which requires larger clearances to structures and vehicles to avoid electromagnetic effects. Implementing even DART 1.5kVDC catenary on the Heuston-Hazelhatch route may for example invalidate the clearance for 9'6" containers on standard wagons recently given and at the least force a return to pocket wagons unless additional clearance was created by replacing low structures (possibly requiring a dig down of the Phoenix Park Tunnel which would have significant impacts during the period of construction).

As for the capital cost of car ownership, car-sharing is starting to gain momentum in Toronto, there are a lot of public car parks now with spaces reserved for shared cars from various companies. You could see a scheme like that being operated from/near Irish bus/rail stations so that people could use public transport to get most of the way but where it is impractical to get buses to the destination (particularly in provincial towns or poorly laid out networks in provincial cities) then you could jump in your reserved shared car to get the rest of the way.

MJohnston

Ah, I think I've conquered this age-old dilemma (not really):

Wandering to Clontarf Road DART station this morning, I noticed upon the extremely and inordinately heavy traffic heading into town (this being at around 10am, a time when the roads there are practically empty; today they were nose to tail the whole way beyond the DART station and on around the coast) and thought "wonderful, not only am I reaffirmed in my usage of public transport, Irish Rail could take this opportunity to show a no-doubt inflated passenger count "Yes, you CAN take the train". I had dreams of pleasant DART journeys surrounded by former drivers gazing at wonder at being able to make it across the Liffey in 10 minutes or so. Enter Irish Rail.

"Ladies and Gentlemen, this train will be waiting here (at Connolly) for the minute, there has been an incident between Lansdowne Road and Pearse station and there is a backlog of trains after Connolly"

Ah well. There's always next time, right?

goingnowhere

If idiot truck drivers would stop crashing into bridges it would help the service immeasurably

Services have resumed between Pearse and Lansdowne, following truck hitting bridge at Macken Street

MJohnston

goingnowhere wrote: »

If idiot truck drivers would stop crashing into bridges it would help the service immeasurably

Actually, my problem wasn't necessarily with the delay (I get the train regularly, I know how to cope), but with the continuance of the Irish Rail policy of "erm, erm, eh" style PR instead of just being honest. Being a regular traveller, I knew the announcement meant "get off here, or you'll be sat on your arse for an hour", but tourists and new-to-DART people wouldn't. And, my DART was stuck at Connolly, can't imagine how annoyed I'd be if I was stuck somewhere on the Loopline.

davidlacey

Took yesterdays 11:00 belfast service, but low and behold the train was caught by the dublin signalling system and the enterprise was stopped 10 minutes at Kilbarrack, so clearly you are not avoiding traffic on the train , as i arrived at my destination(newry) at 12:26 when the scheduled time of arrival was 12:15. at least the free ulsterbus shuttle service waits for you! Bus 1 rail 0

CIE

davidlacey wrote: »

Took yesterday's 11:00 Belfast service, but lo and behold, the train was caught by the Dublin signalling system and the Enterprise was stopped 10 minutes at Kilbarrack, so clearly you are not avoiding traffic on the train, as I arrived at my destination (Newry) at 12:26 when the scheduled time of arrival was 12:15. At least the free Ulsterbus shuttle service waits for you! Bus 1, rail 0

Wow, a mere eleven minutes lost and with the existing double tracking in Dublin, and still a respectable 46-mph average speed versus the timetabled 52 mph. Try getting delayed on the motorway; it'll be a lot longer of a wait, and it's not legal to travel at 80 mph on the motorway in any vehicle. And Ulsterbus' Route 200 "Goldline" service is timetabled to make the parallel journey in 1:30 without taking the motorway foibles into account, i.e. Busaras to Newry Bus Centre, which is a 43-mph average speed in spite of the motorway, and just one intermediate stop at Dublin Airport versus two on the Enterprise at Drogheda and Dundalk. Bus still score 1?

parsi

bk wrote: »

That is why there is a very strong argument to switch VAT, duty, road tax and maybe even insurance from being front loaded, to instead been put on the price of petrol.

This would reduce the cost of owning a car, but increase the cost of actually using it. Thus it would encourage people to leave their car at home and use public transport instead.

This is an interesting idea - is it done anywhere at the moment ? How would it affect tourists ? (any exemption scheme would have to be well thought out ).

On a side note diesel was 1.439 in rural France yesterday and 1.599 in Cork today.

parsi

foggy_lad wrote: »

don't forget the normal family car gives the option to carry up to 5 people for only a small increase in feul costs which is far cheaer than the cheapest web sale rail fares booked in advance which always have punitive terms and conditions.

Won't beat the Golden Tickets which don't have any enforced terms and conditions..

n97 mini

Barry Kenny on the Right Hook yesterday. Several people complained about rude/ignorant station staff.

miller50841

The stations are filthy and even the ones that have been refurbished need to be better maintained.

Toilets is another issue either station doesn't have any or they are revolting and I know a lot of that is down to scum bags destroying them but better security and better positioned toilets so there is always an eye on them from station staff.

Dun Laoghaire station is revolting floors are dangerous when wet including escallator at back and stairs need new anti slip inserts as most have worn away.

There is a terrible smell out the back of the station and the lighting out back needs to be sorted there is none.

The shelters along the platform are used for jumping on to get on the train without paying.

dowlingm

What IE need to get is that you can get a LOT of free media when you make small (relatively) investments in stuff like cleanliness, queue busting and so on:
http://www.torontolife.com/daily/informer/streetcar-named-disaster/2012/03/15/andy-byford-reveals-ttc-bathrooms/
http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/01/21/the-ttcs-not-perfect-but-customer-service-chief-chris-upfold-thinks-it-can-be-fixed/

Take this for example:
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/transportation/article/1136486--ttc-s-new-driver-andy-byford-rolls-up-his-sleeves-and-gets-to-work

as the New Year’s bash broke up at Nathan Phillips Square and revelers flooded Dundas station, the man who has handled crowd control after soccer games at Wembley Stadium and for New Year’s fireworks at Sydney Harbour had concerns.

There were gaps in the TTC train service and some crews had called in sick, making crowd control on the platforms a challenge.

Byford, 46, who on Tuesday became the interim successor to politically ousted TTC chief general manager Gary Webster, immediately went to work assisting crews with crowd control — and taking notes.

“I just felt we could have prepared for the night better, deployed the staff better; we just needed a much better plan,” says Byford. “There should have been more people on duty to control the crowds on the platforms, and also the public address system wasn’t working. These things should be tested in advance. We needed a bullhorn. It wasn’t there. Where was it?”

God knows there's a lot to do about getting the culture right here, but the media are willing to give Byford a lot more slack than his predecessors about it because they feel he gets customer issues and is trying to get a hidebound organisation to do something - basic stuff - about it.

gsxr1

And the fairs go up.


While the new little transit connects, fiesta vans and focus cars seem to multiply .

immm . All running around doing loads of work.

But wait. Services have been cut.

Wow.

Hilly Bill

How do you know that they multiply?

Fair enough that you have an issue with IR but at least come up with something more valid to bump a thread.

brokenarms

I was at Malihide station a few weeks ago, late and seen 3 big transits vans parked outside the station.

Full of men sound asleep. Every van.

I wonder if they where supposed to be working?

Losty Dublin

gsxr1 wrote: »

And the fairs go up.


While the new little transit connects, fiesta vans and focus cars seem to multiply .

immm . All running around doing loads of work.

But wait. Services have been cut.

Wow.

Well, so long as public transport subventions are cut by the Cabinet who are eyeing up a wholly privatized transport service in some shape or form and less people use services then fares will be raised and service levels cut to make up the shortfall. It's a long debated vicious circle on here and there very little light that will be shed on the debate.

RonanM123

IR are failing because they force passengers to stand for 2h30m.:mad:

foggy_lad

RonanM123 wrote: »

IR are failing because they force passengers to stand for 2h30m.:mad:

There is no standing allowed on coaches!

dowlingm

RonanM123 wrote: »

IR are failing because they force passengers to stand for 2h30m.:mad:

people love to compare IE to Ryanair but if MOL was running IE he'd be the first to say "should have reserved your seat"