Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread II

jm08

Deleted User wrote: »

link to relevant quote btw

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rugby/earls-i-can-follow-bod-as-best-13-in-the-world-193296.html

That is not what Foxtrol quoted - see below for what was actually said:

“Hopefully, the first day he comes, I’ll be going straight into him and saying, ‘look, I want to play 13’.

“I don’t want to play on the wing any more. It’s not my position and I don’t enjoy it so, hopefully, I want to improve as a 13.

“I don’t want to keep mixing and matching. Hopefully I can start creating space for my wingers.”

Foxtrol

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

Really? You're getting all that from him saying he's going to ask Penny can he play 13 because he doesn't like the wing

You're making it out as if he stormed into Pennys office shouting orders. In reality we both know he probably went and asked to be played at 13 and didn't demand anything (btw, we don't actually know because we weren't in there so which scenario do you think is honestly more realistic?)

Earls himself phrased it that he was going to ‘go straight in’ and ‘tell’ not ask or discuss with him, he was going to ‘tell’ his coach what position he was going to play. Don’t blame me for the words Earls used to the media. None of us know what happened in that meeting but all we know is Earls went from being very headstrong prior to the meeting to being a lot more coy after, so obviously it didn't go as well as he'd hoped at the time he made the initial comments.

Lads he’s come out himself now and said he was wrong and apologised for saying this, I really don’t know why you’re all getting your knickers in a twist defending him when he’s pled guilty.

Foxtrol

jm08 wrote: »

That is not what Foxtrol quoted - see below for what was actually said:

Take your complaints up with the Limerick Leader, which is by the way the first article that comes up for me relating to this issue when you type 'Earls wants to play centre' into google. I quoted the entire 3rd paragraph from start to finish apart from 'Keith Earls said...'

http://www.limerickleader.ie/sport/earls-wants-to-be-the-best-centre-in-the-world-1-3820231

finatron

Foxtrol wrote: »

I'm sorry, the way that's phrased by him in the interview prior to speaking to Penney it is a demand, he's straight stating his plans to go into Penney and say he doesn't want play anywhere but 13, there’s no equivocation like the later interviews where he’s toned it down a bit to say he’ll do what’s best for the team. If want to get strung up on semantics go ahead, it’s still the same ends]

No where in the interview is the word demand used. Want and demand are too very different things your use of the word demand implies Earls was acting up and confronting Penny

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

finatron wrote: »

No where in the interview is the word demand used. Want and demand are too very different things your use of the word demand implies Earls was acting up and confronting Penny

basically this

I don't have a problem with Earls asking to play 13. In fact he was sorely needed /missed there for Munster this season given Casey LLL was indifferent to awful for the most part of it

jm08

Foxtrol wrote: »

Earls himself phrased it that he was going to ‘go straight in’ and ‘tell’ not ask or discuss with him, he was going to ‘tell’ his coach what position he was going to play. Don’t blame me for the words Earls used to the media. None of us know what happened in that meeting but all we know is Earls went from being very headstrong prior to the meeting to being a lot more coy after, so obviously it didn't go as well as he'd hoped at the time he made the initial comments.

Lads he’s come out himself now and said he was wrong and apologised for saying this, I really don’t know why you’re all getting your knickers in a twist defending him when he’s pled guilty.

He apologised to Rob for telling the media about a private conversation.

"I spoke to Rob (Penney) about it alright a couple of weeks ago. I went up to him and apologised to him about coming out in the media and saying I wanted to play at 13," he says.

You do realise that 8/9 of Earls starts for Munster under Penney was at 13? His one game on the wing was against Clermont when more than likely Penney didn't fancy watching Nalaga & Denis Hurley in a footrace for the Munster tryline.

shuffol

From Earls quotes today it came across to me that by coming out publicly stating he wanted to play 13 he was hoping to put a bit of pressure on Penney to play him there, prior to Zebo's emergence this season he was easily Munsters most talented outside back and I imagine his words would've held a bit of sway, I often felt Penney was trying to accomodate him last season by moving Lualala to 12 or leaving him out altogether.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

shuffol wrote: »

From Earls quotes today it came across to me that by coming out publicly stating he wanted to play 13 he was hoping to put a bit of pressure on Penney to play him there, prior to Zebo's emergence this season he was easily Munsters most talented outside back and I imagine his words would've held a bit of sway, I often felt Penney was trying to accomodate him last season by moving Lualala to 12 or leaving him out altogether.

I think LLL was the one being accommodated by being moved to 12 until he was eventually put in the 23 shirt

shuffol

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

I think LLL was the one being accommodated by being moved to 12 until he was eventually put in the 23 shirt

Possibly, no way to know for sure either way.

finatron

Anyways the main thing I took from the interview and other bits I've read about Munster is that the team are mad for road and great buzz around camp

Foxtrol

finatron wrote: »

No where in the interview is the word demand used. Want and demand are too very different things your use of the word demand implies Earls was acting up and confronting Penny

Where does want come from? People are throwing a hissy fit about semantics between unequivocally ‘telling’ and ‘demanding’ to try to muddy the waters of what he said, and since apologised for.

If I go straight up to my coach in training tonight and unequivocally ‘tell’ him or ‘demand’ to him that I’m not playing on the wing I’d be getting the same reaction and it wouldn’t be good for me and if you want to call it acting up go ahead. As I said he changed his tune quite a bit after the meeting as I’d would be the case with me if I did similar.

jm08

shuffol wrote: »

Possibly, no way to know for sure either way.

LLL gets a 5.4 rating on Munsterfans over the season. He redeemed himself towards the end, but for most the season Penney had no option but to leave him out which is really surprising considering that Penney coached LLL in Canterbury so Casey should have found the style easy to play.

Its hardly surprising that Earls would have been worried about LLL coming in bearing in mind that the new coach had coached him already.

He is probably far more relaxed about it this season as the new players brought in were wingers.

Foxtrol

jm08 wrote: »

He apologised to Rob for telling the media about a private conversation.

How are you only including the comments to the media after and not before? He said he was wrong to do any of it and he was right to apologise.

You do realise that 8/9 of Earls starts for Munster under Penney was at 13? His one game on the wing was against Clermont when more than likely Penney didn't fancy watching Nalaga & Denis Hurley in a footrace for the Munster tryline.

I'm well aware, what's your point? How does this justify what Earls has apologised for?

Foxtrol

jm08 wrote: »

LLL gets a 5.4 rating on Munsterfans over the season. He redeemed himself towards the end, but for most the season Penney had no option but to leave him out which is really surprising considering that Penney coached LLL in Canterbury so Casey should have found the style easy to play.

He did miss some tackles that were unforgivable but I think it was more the rest of the Munster team not being able to get on the same wavelength as him than LLL have difficulties fitting into Penney's style. So many times I watched him look for or give offloads where there should have been a supporting player on his shoulder who’d have been put into acres of space but there was no one. Think they only caught up to him as the season went on.

no option but to leave him out?

He played 27 times this season...
http://www.munsterrugby.ie/rugby/squadprofiles.php?player=13417&includeref=dynamic

jm08

Foxtrol wrote: »

Where does want come from? People are throwing a hissy fit about semantics between unequivocally ‘telling’ and ‘demanding’ to try to muddy the waters of what he said, and since apologised for.

If I go straight up to my coach in training tonight and unequivocally ‘tell’ him or ‘demand’ to him that I’m not playing on the wing I’d be getting the same reaction and it wouldn’t be good for me and if you want to call it acting up go ahead. As I said he changed his tune quite a bit after the meeting as I’d would be the case with me if I did similar.

Only mudding of the water is being done by you.
1. You are the one who insists that he 'demanded' to play 13.
2. You are still claiming he apologised for 'demanding' to play 13, when in fact he apologised for divulging his conversation with Penney to the media.

Anscombe has divulged having a similar discussion with Jared Payne, so it would seem its not that unusual for players to have these type of discussions.

"Jared wants to play a bit more at centre, but that is something we will worry about next year," said Anscombe.
"He has always has been a full-back.
"It was just that the (Auckland Blues) put him at centre in the last year and he got a taste for it then.
"That is a possibility going forward but at the moment we will be using him as a full-back."

Hagz

jm08 wrote: »

Anscombe has divulged having a similar discussion with Jared Payne, so it would seem its not that unusual for players to have these type of discussions.

Have you got a link for that?

Barmy stuff.

Direct Quote from Limerick Leader

Keith Earls said: “The first day Rob comes, I will be going straight into him and telling him I want to play 13. I don’t want to play on the wing any more. It’s not my position. I don’t enjoy it. I want to improve as a 13. I don’t want to keep mixing and matching.

“With Ireland’s tour of New Zealand, I need to see if I’m selected to travel first. I will deal with that if it comes, if Deccie (Kidney) needs me to play on the wing, but I will let my feelings known that I don’t feel comfortable on the wing any more.

“I want to be a centre. I played in the centre all season and I’m enjoying it. I am getting better defensively, especially. I am putting in more tackles in a game and am getting a lot more confident. On the wing, I don’t have great confidence

---

I'm fairly certain you can't compare the two like that.

Case 1:
Publicly, Earls states that before his coach has seen him play in the flesh, that he will be telling that coach that he doesn't want to play on the wing anymore.

Case 2:
Privately, Payne makes it known to his coach that he'd like to be given a shot at 13. Coach then makes that info public. The context of the conversation is completely and utterly lost as it should have been.

Lelantos

Foxtrol wrote: »

He did miss some tackles that were unforgivable but I think it was more the rest of the Munster team not being able to get on the same wavelength as him than LLL have difficulties fitting into Penney's style. So many times I watched him look for or give offloads where there should have been a supporting player on his shoulder who’d have been put into acres of space but there was no one. Think they only caught up to him as the season went on.

Oh Foxy, you are on a ...roll today.

jm08

Deleted User wrote: »

no option but to leave him out?

He played 27 times this season...
http://www.munsterrugby.ie/rugby/squadprofiles.php?player=13417&includeref=dynamic

When Earls was available, he generally benched or played 12/wing or fullback.

Only one game did he start ahead of Earls at 13 (Clermont game when Earls was coming back from injury and Hurley would have been on Nalanga's wing).

irishbucsfan

I really don't think that conversation mattered. Earls played 13 because he was the best 13 available to Munster at the time he was fit. His performances compared to CL's proved that. They were much better with Earls at 13 and Zebo on the wing. I think we might see things differently this year now that Howlett is gone.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Lelantos wrote: »

Oh Foxy, you are on a ...roll today.

Casey LLL could have been playing for the All Blacks like that and he still would not have been playing well

Having players on the same wavelength as you doesn't matter a jot if you're shirking away from tackles and throwing offloads to peoples feet or simply attempting ones that aren't on in the first place

jm08

Hagz wrote: »

Have you got a link for that?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/northern-ireland/22482921

When he re-signed with Ulster.

Foxtrol

jm08 wrote: »

Only mudding of the water is being done by you.
1. You are the one who insists that he 'demanded' to play 13.
2. You are still claiming he apologised for 'demanding' to play 13, when in fact he apologised for divulging his conversation with Penney to the media

1. Once again you’re getting hung up on semantics. He states that he is going to unequivocally tell his coach he’s playing 13, that’s are the same as demanding as they’re both a ‘this is how it’s going to be’ statements. What is your hang up on the word demand, as if to unequivocally tell your coach he’s playing you somewhere is going to make him look better than he demanded something from his coach?
2. He came out and said he apologized for bringing his desire to play 13 to the media, he didn’t specify which comments to the media so I don’t know why you’d exclude the comments where he said he was going to ‘tell’ his coach what position he was going to play.

Anscombe has divulged having a similar discussion with Jared Payne, so it would seem its not that unusual for players to have these type of discussions.

Emmet takes the words out of my mouth.

Deleted User wrote: »

Barmy stuff.

Direct Quote from Limerick Leader


---

I'm fairly certain you can't compare the two like that.

Case 1:
Publicly, Earls states that before his coach has seen him play in the flesh, that he will be telling that coach that he doesn't want to play on the wing anymore.

Case 2:
Privately, Payne makes it known to his coach that he'd like to be given a shot at 13. Coach then makes that info public. The context of the conversation is completely and utterly lost as it should have been.

jm08

Deleted User wrote: »

Barmy stuff.

Direct Quote from Limerick Leader


---

I'm fairly certain you can't compare the two like that.

Case 1:
Publicly, Earls states that before his coach has seen him play in the flesh, that he will be telling that coach that he doesn't want to play on the wing anymore.

Case 2:
Privately, Payne makes it known to his coach that he'd like to be given a shot at 13. Coach then makes that info public. The context of the conversation is completely and utterly lost as it should have been.

Another Direct quote from the Limerick Leader: http://www.limerickpost.ie/2012/08/02/keith-earls-will-fight-for-13-spot/

Earls is prepared to fight for the spot however.
“I spoke to Rob and let him know the position I prefer and he sees me as a 13 as well. Obviously, though, I’m not going to play every game for Munster just as Casey and James aren’t either. Danny Barnes, Ivan Dinneen and a couple of other lads are there and I’m sure it will be mix and match again like last year. But he knows 13 is my favourite position even if at times we might have to adjust. You can’t be that selfish when it comes to a team and Rob said he’d do his best without promising anything”.

Examiner, Indo & Times seem to be similar to this one.

I'm demonstrating that there is nothing wrong with players talking to the coaches. Earls made a mistake by telling the media about his conversation which he has apologised to Rob for doing. He hasn't apologised for actually asking to play 13.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

You're actually on the money there jm08, Earls was apolagising for going to the media, which is, afaic, my only problem with anything he has done in this saga

Foxtrol

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

Casey LLL could have been playing for the All Blacks like that and he still would not have been playing well

Having players on the same wavelength as you doesn't matter a jot if you're shirking away from tackles and throwing offloads to peoples feet or simply attempting ones that aren't on in the first place

I mentioned the tackling being unforgivable so I don’t know why you’ve included it there as if I left it out.

So you think that he was just playing poorly and not because he had ‘difficulty adapting to Penney’s style’ like jm claimed and I countered?

Do you think at no point Munster players weren’t on the same wavelength as him when it came to him looking for offloads?

Is this a joke?

Timeline.

Earls makes a quote saying he does not want to play winger. That he sees himself as a centre.
Evidence - http://www.limerickleader.ie/sport/earls-wants-to-be-the-best-centre-in-the-world-1-3820231

Weeks later, Earls reveals that he has had the discussion that he alluded to, and that he has stated that the new coach agrees that he is a centre
Evidence - http://www.limerickpost.ie/2012/08/02/keith-earls-will-fight-for-13-spot/

One full year later, Earls tells media that he recently spoke to Penney and apologised for the media interaction.
Evidence - http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/i-dont-care-where-i-play-earls-29482954.html

---

done

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Foxtrol wrote: »

I mentioned the tackling being unforgivable so I don’t know why you’ve included it there as if I left it out.

So you think that he was just playing poorly and not because he had ‘difficulty adapting to Penney’s style’ like jm claimed and I countered?

Do you think at no point Munster players weren’t on the same wavelength as him when it came to him looking for offloads?

I think he didn't like Penny's style, and his game certainly didn't blossom under it

But he certainly wasn't doing the basics right either, his defense was actually good for most of the season but then went to pot.

And tbh, the whole "wavelength" thing is completely overstated. I remember literally dozens of occasions where instead of holding onto the ball Casey LLL tried things that simply weren't on (and not because there was no one on his wavelength, because they simply were not going to work). Then there were occasions when he simply executed offloads poorly.

He's a very good player, but Munsters abject backline play shouldn't absolve him of his own bad form completely

Foxtrol

jm08 wrote: »

Another Direct quote from the Limerick Leader: http://www.limerickpost.ie/2012/08/02/keith-earls-will-fight-for-13-spot/

Examiner, Indo & Times seem to be similar to this one.

I'm demonstrating that there is nothing wrong with players talking to the coaches. Earls made a mistake by telling the media about his conversation which he has apologised to Rob for doing. He hasn't apologised for actually asking to play 13.

So you picked a later interview after his discussion with Penney, what does that prove except he wasn’t half as headstrong after whatever was said in the initial meeting? If that was all he said to the media I'd have no issues with him but that isn't the case.

I’ve no issue with players going to coaches and giving their views, I can’t see how 99% of the time it wouldn’t be helpful.

Standard jm straw man, I never said he apologized for asking to play 13, I said he apologized for going to the media about wanting to go to play 13 which includes an interview were he states his plan to unequivocally tell the coach where to play him. He shouldn't have come out that strongly in public, with a new coach only coming in the door only making the situation worse.