Ulster Bank League 2012-2013 talk/gossip/rumours

CGD

Bleak year for Munster rugby 2 clubs relegated! Less travelling for Leinster clubs and more for the Munster clubs, how times have changed!!

thomond2006

Will all the Munster contracted players have to leave Shannon now?

CGD

thomond2006 wrote: »

Will all the Munster contracted players have to leave Shannon now?

They probably won't but might harm their careers if they don't leave especially any of the younger ones!

CIARAN_BOYLE

thomond2006 wrote: »

Will all the Munster contracted players have to leave Shannon now?

afaik contracted players can play in 1A or 1B and academy players can play anywhere. That said Munster may exert pressure so that players get the best standard of gametime possible which is imo 1A

CGD

Not Playing Tiddlywinks Vinny wrote: »

Down Shannon go, they need to bounce straight back or else they could be in a downward spiral and may continue to fall. Say the club sharks in Limerick are sniffing round for players already! Duncan Casey move to a 1A side like JJ is gonna have to??

UCD hold onto lads or will they still struggle to keep similar side? Opinions?

UCD will be delighted and will keep a lot of payers but with the size of their squad they won't keep every one happy, they would compete in 1b as well as 1a next season with the quality and size of squad they have. Great day for UCD painful for Shannon

bamboozle

Fair play to ucd, this will see five Dublin clubs, two limerick, two cork and One ulster team next season, ul bohs and Shannon will lose players to garryowen and young Munster which should see them having strong squads next season.

Players at ucd that may have been expected to leave this summer may now hang on..Coughlan, gilsenan, Tracey, Doyle, McGrath.

I think Shannon are facing a bleak future, I've been at games there the last few seasons and their crowds are very very small, there's been a lot of fluffing around with poor coaching appointments since they drew the ail final back in 2009.

Not Playing Tiddlywinks Vinny

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

afaik contracted players can play in 1A or 1B and academy players can play anywhere. That said Munster may exert pressure so that players get the best standard of gametime possible which is imo 1A

Believe thats right, Munster are pressurizing lads to play 1A, so thats why i was asking regarding Casey, this would effect Foley and JJ at Bohs

Aidric

Garryowen had a good season thankfully. About the only positive for the Limerick clubs. :mad:

Bruff were also relegated from 1B.

Not Playing Tiddlywinks Vinny

Garryowen the only positive, got a squad together this yr and finished 2nd. Be concerned for them next season, Lost Matt Jarvis, Corey Hircock, Sean Scanlon, TJ Anderson. Possibly lose out on James Rael, JP Cooney with Connacht and Ronan O Mahoney to get more Munster game time. Have a rebuilding job to do again. Can see Bohs lads move to the light blues

Cookies looking for a new coach and from what i've heard they may struggle to hold onto and sign lads due to not honouring commitments made to current and recent players. Have a very bad rep so think lads will be mad to go there currently. Will need to look at schools and 21s players.

Hagz

Can someone explain to me what the junior interprovincial series is?

backgreen

was at the shannon/ucd game and being a shannon supporter have to admit ucd were by far the better side..very youthful, better conditioned,more skilful..the standard at the top of AIL is definitely rising very close to prov A standard ...limerick and cork teams will have to take a whole new approach if they are to stay at the top table..the standout player for shannon was sean mc carthy and he is only 19

lurtz

Hagz wrote: »

Can someone explain to me what the junior interprovincial series is?

the best junior clubs players in each province are selected to represent the province in an interpro series

CGD

backgreen wrote: »

was at the shannon/ucd game and being a shannon supporter have to admit ucd were by far the better side..very youthful, better conditioned,more skilful..the standard at the top of AIL is definitely rising very close to prov A standard ...limerick and cork teams will have to take a whole new approach if they are to stay at the top table..the standout player for shannon was sean mc carthy and he is only 19

UCD Starting to show the results of their successful under 21 squads the last 2-3 years. They will go well in 1a. Watch out for Trinity doing the same next year! Colleges have a great advantage in recruiting very good schools players by offering "scholarship" programmes and incentives and the results from their policy are starting to bear fruit and will only get stronger!!

JustinDee

The whole point of a club's existence gets lost in all this apparent catastrophe of being dropped from 1A to 1B.

Club's growth depends on what is coming through each year, it's investment in facilities, it's own development programmes. If goals are met, then club will thrive. Winning a division doesn't earn club anything but an etching on a distinctions board or a very brief mention in press, so should be down priorities list by a considerable way. Sponsors will back a thriving, busy and packed club anyway, regardless of division. There are clubs who have dropped from senior leagues even and are doing very well indeed with memberships, appropriate expenditure and attracting backing.
Yes, winning leagues and divisions is a worthy goal. It doesn't determine that club's stature or existence however as far more important other forces supercede.
That's my two cents anyway.

backgreen

CGD wrote: »

UCD Starting to show the results of their successful under 21 squads the last 2-3 years. They will go well in 1a. Watch out for Trinity doing the same next year! Colleges have a great advantage in recruiting very good schools players by offering "scholarship" programmes and incentives and the results from their policy are starting to bear fruit and will only get stronger!!

I agree..but one would imagine that UCC/ULbohs/NUIG/corinthians would also get the benefit ...will the new IRFU ruling affect the scholarship programs?

IngazZagni

I have to say I was quite shocked at the result of the Shannon/UCD game. I thought Shannon's improving form at the latter end of the season could push them to a close victory yesterday. Well done to UCD though. The key to their success will be holding onto to the talented young players they have even years after they leave College.

Relegation can in many ways benefit a club in the long run by giving them a kick up the backside. Getting more wins even in a lower division can boost player moral.

A team like Lansdowne has been relegated twice in AIL history and were in Division 2 and 1B in the past 5 years but they bounced back quickly. When a team like Young Munster went down they stayed down for a while before bouncing back. What will be Shannon's fate?

CGD

backgreen wrote: »

I agree..but one would imagine that UCC/ULbohs/NUIG/corinthians would also get the benefit ...will the new IRFU ruling affect the scholarship programs?

The sad but true fact are that the Dublin Colleges benefit from the Leinster rugby Schools system more than the rest of the colleges. They also get quiet a few from the rest of the country. The traffic going th other way is relatively small in comparison. Pre season 21's for UCD and Trinity see about 100 lads in each college showing up and all of very good ability who were some of the stand out and more talented players in their school or club underage teams half of them end up playing no rugby and the new report by IRFU claims that in Leinster ( colleges and clubs included ) only 5% stay on and play rugby after 21's which is pretty shocking and somewhat hard to believe.

JustinDee

The 5% retention of U20 players into adult rugby was a reference example from a Leinster branch report in 2009 of players U20 in 2007.

JustinDee

backgreen wrote: »

I agree..but one would imagine that UCC/ULbohs/NUIG/corinthians would also get the benefit ...will the new IRFU ruling affect the scholarship programs?

Link to report here: http://www.irishrugby.ie/downloads/IRFU_Club_Sustainability_Report_April2013.pdf

CGD

JustinDee wrote: »

The 5% retention of U20 players into adult rugby was a reference example from a Leinster branch report in 2009 of players U20 in 2007.

Doesn't make it any better and that's the most recent one referenced. I do think it is higher now probably nearer the 20% mark but IRFU to lazy to put in or sanction a more recent survey for a 2013 report which will impact rugby in 2014-2015 so figures will be nearly 8 years old then. Pretty ridiculous but not surprising from the governing body who spend their time interfering at provincial level and f** king up the national team. Hope things change in the future as they are stuck in a time warp along with the aging profile of senior decision makers! Rant over!! no further comment!

JustinDee

CGD wrote: »

Doesn't make it any better and that's the most recent one referenced ... etc etc

It was an example of a figure from the so-called boom times, that's why it was used in report.

thebaz

congrats to UCD and Bobby Byrne , his teams always play the style of rugby that I like :-
http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/ucd-secure-top-flight-status-in-thrillling-style-1.1383368

lurtz

great to see something finally like this

Some of Ireland's finest and most talented club rugby stars, from across the country, will gather for the first-ever 'Ulster Bank League Awards', on Thursday 16th May, in Dublin.
A shortlist of three players, from each division, has been compiled by a panel of judges including, Irish Daily Mail club rugby journalist, Adam Redmond, and veteran club rugby journalist and IrishRugby.ie correspondant Kieran Rooney.
From the selected shortlist, the following Awards will be presented by former Ireland and Leinster rugby legend, Reggie Corrigan:

1. Ulster Bank Player of the Year - Division 1A
2. Ulster Bank Player of the Year - Division 1B
3. Ulster Bank Player of the Year - Division 2A
4. Ulster Bank Player of the Year - Division 2B
5. Ulster Bank Top Try Scorer - Division 1A
6. Ulster Bank Top Points Scorer - Division 1A
7. Ulster Bank Young Player of the Year - Division 1A

Speaking ahead of the Ulster Bank League Awards, Carol McMahon, Head of Sponsorship at Ulster Bank, said: "Every weekend, club rugby players across the country lineout to represent their club and their community. We saw this year, with the scouting of Craig Ronaldson from Lansdowne to Connacht, that our club sides are brimming with talent.

"Recognising player commitments and achievements is important, as these are the players who help to build community pride and passion.

"Ulster Bank is a proud supporter of club and grassroots rugby throughout Ireland. This is our third year as Official Community Rugby Partner to the IRFU and we are delighted to be introducing the first ever Ulster Bank League Awards."

Ulster Bank League Awards 2013 - Shortlist

Division 1A:
Player of the Year nominees: Craig Ronaldson (Lansdowne), Ron Boucher (Lansdowne), Ronan O'Mahony (Garryowen).

Young Player of the Year nominees: James Cronin (Dolphin), Johnny Holland (Cork Con), Charlie Butterworth (Lansdowne).

Division 1B:
Player of the Year nominees: Cathal Marsh (Dublin University), Barry Daly (UCD), Stuart Morrow (Ballynahinch).

Division 2A:
Player of the Year nominees: Willie Staunton (Terenure), Willie Ryan (UCC), Peter Lydon (Seapoint).

Division 2B:
Player of the Year nominees: Henry Bryce (Naas), Mark O'Connor (Rainey Old Boys), Eoin O'Neill (Thomond).

Not Playing Tiddlywinks Vinny

Ronaldson, Butterworth, Morrow, Staunton and Bryce i'd think

FellasFellas

Not Playing Tiddlywinks Vinny wrote: »

Ronaldson, Butterworth, Morrow, Staunton and Bryce i'd think

I'd go for Daly ahead of Morrow.

Not Playing Tiddlywinks Vinny

FellasFellas wrote: »

I'd go for Daly ahead of Morrow.

No way, Morrow was by a long way that leagues outstanding player! Most consistent!

CGD

FellasFellas wrote: »

I'd go for Daly ahead of Morrow.

Yeah I would do the same

CGD

Any news of any transfers between clubs deadline coming up soon!

Not Playing Tiddlywinks Vinny

CGD wrote: »

Any news of any transfers between clubs deadline coming up soon!

What is the story with transferring after the deadline?

ormond lad

CGD wrote: »

Any news of any transfers between clubs deadline coming up soon!

Deadline isn't that soon. Doubt we'll hear much on players moving for a while yet

Not Playing Tiddlywinks Vinny wrote: »

What is the story with transferring after the deadline?

There's a few different deadlines iirc from players being signed from abroad, other irish senior clubs and then junior clubs. Cant remember when each deadline is though

CGD

Deadline for transferring to AIL teams is June 1st which by my reckoning is only a little over 2 weeks away which is soon is it not?

ormond lad

CGD wrote: »

Deadline for transferring to AIL teams is June 1st which by my reckoning is only a little over 2 weeks away which is soon is it not?

there is other dates for transfers other than that date. 1st September im fairly sure is one for AIL players

CGD

ormond lad wrote: »

there is other dates for transfers other than that date. 1st September im fairly sure is one for AIL players

June 1st is. For players transferring from one AIL club to another other deadlines are for new players not yet playing in the AIL

backgreen

ben martin and stephen keogh to coach Bruff for next season

Stainalert

JustinDee wrote: »

Link to report here: http://www.irishrugby.ie/downloads/IRFU_Club_Sustainability_Report_April2013.pdf

Club sustainability report is very worrying for devotees of the club game and in my view pretty misguided. In my opinion if all measures are introduced as stated it will dramatically reduce the quality of rugby in the UBL and thus disempower clubs even more than they currently are.

Rules around player transfer will simply reward badly run poorly coached and unsuccessful clubs and must surely be in breach of an individuals rights to freedom of choice. Surely any player has the basic right to choose where he wants to play wherever he wants without penalty. There are lots of reasons why players will move clubs and it is wrong to assume and base your transfer rules on the assumption that money is at the heart of every transfer.

How do the rules around player transfers sit with the provincial academies who want their players to play at the highest level possible in order to develop?

It would also seem that the proposed points allocation system re player transfers is stacked against open clubs who do not have feeder schools or university and as a necessity recruit regularly from all sorts of sources.

The report is also quite ambivalent about university scholarships and their very definition - I for one am very much in favour of scholarships but I do not think they should be the preserve of just the universities - If this report is trying to create a level playing field then surely any club should be able to offer the same?

backgreen

Stainalert wrote: »

Club sustainability report is very worrying for devotees of the club game and in my view pretty misguided. In my opinion if all measures are introduced as stated it will dramatically reduce the quality of rugby in the UBL and thus disempower clubs even more than they currently are.

Rules around player transfer will simply reward badly run poorly coached and unsuccessful clubs and must surely be in breach of an individuals rights to freedom of choice. Surely any player has the basic right to choose where he wants to play wherever he wants without penalty. There are lots of reasons why players will move clubs and it is wrong to assume and base your transfer rules on the assumption that money is at the heart of every transfer.

How do the rules around player transfers sit with the provincial academies who want their players to play at the highest level possible in order to develop?

It would also seem that the proposed points allocation system re player transfers is stacked against open clubs who do not have feeder schools or university and as a necessity recruit regularly from all sorts of sources.

The report is also quite ambivalent about university scholarships and their very definition - I for one am very much in favour of scholarships but I do not think they should be the preserve of just the universities - If this report is trying to create a level playing field then surely any club should be able to offer the same?

the scholarship situation is going to be a real issue,the GAA soccer athletics all have sports scholarships..if ucd/trinity persist with their rugby scholarship program they will have a huge advantage over the club game who cant offer any inducements

lurtz

backgreen wrote: »

the scholarship situation is going to be a real issue,the GAA soccer athletics all have sports scholarships..if ucd/trinity persist with their rugby scholarship program they will have a huge advantage over the club game who cant offer any inducements

wouldnt say its a huge advantage. many lads for whatever reason don't/can't go to these universities,if they have rep players in on scholarship the college mightn't see them for most of the year, players leave and move clubs after their scholarship is up. so all in all it doesnt work out that much better

Stainalert

UCD have a very large scholarship program and currently have 12 Leinster academy players (all on scholarships)

JustinDee

Stainalert wrote: »

Club sustainability report is very worrying for devotees of the club game and in my view pretty misguided. In my opinion if all measures are introduced as stated it will dramatically reduce the quality of rugby in the UBL and thus disempower clubs even more than they currently are.

Rules around player transfer will simply reward badly run poorly coached and unsuccessful clubs and must surely be in breach of an individuals rights to freedom of choice. Surely any player has the basic right to choose where he wants to play wherever he wants without penalty. There are lots of reasons why players will move clubs and it is wrong to assume and base your transfer rules on the assumption that money is at the heart of every transfer.

How do the rules around player transfers sit with the provincial academies who want their players to play at the highest level possible in order to develop?

It would also seem that the proposed points allocation system re player transfers is stacked against open clubs who do not have feeder schools or university and as a necessity recruit regularly from all sorts of sources.

The report is also quite ambivalent about university scholarships and their very definition - I for one am very much in favour of scholarships but I do not think they should be the preserve of just the universities - If this report is trying to create a level playing field then surely any club should be able to offer the same?

If clubs fold due to financial ruin, this highest level you refer to suffers even worse. There's a reason that such a number of clubs has gotten themselves into this situation, hence the measures to be introduced.

Not Playing Tiddlywinks Vinny

backgreen wrote: »

ben martin and stephen keogh to coach Bruff for next season

Add John Broderick ex-YM and OC to that team too

Stainalert

JustinDee wrote: »

If clubs fold due to financial ruin, this highest level you refer to suffers even worse. There's a reason that such a number of clubs has gotten themselves into this situation, hence the measures to be introduced.

I can understand why the IRFU want to curb/outlaw the payment of players and agree with it (scholarships aside) but the proposals around player transfers are way too restrictive and surely unnecessary if the payments issue is policed correctly

backgreen

Not Playing Tiddlywinks Vinny wrote: »

Add John Broderick ex-YM and OC to that team too

AND john Hayes skills academy

backgreen

lurtz wrote: »

wouldnt say its a huge advantage. many lads for whatever reason don't/can't go to these universities,if they have rep players in on scholarship the college mightn't see them for most of the year, players leave and move clubs after their scholarship is up. so all in all it doesnt work out that much better

can be worth a few grand...

CGD

lurtz wrote: »

wouldnt say its a huge advantage. many lads for whatever reason don't/can't go to these universities,if they have rep players in on scholarship the college mightn't see them for most of the year, players leave and move clubs after their scholarship is up. so all in all it doesnt work out that much better

Massive advantage they can and do give "living allowance", tuition, accomadation, College fees and extra points to get desired course to incoming players. It is always nice to play for the college you attend but this has to be restricted and policed. Between Trinity & UCD approx 180 1st year under 21's players training in September. How many got to play at the level they tought they would? Probably no more than 60 and these are all very decent level schools and club players.

Transfers are interesting I myself left my original club because the set up was muck and moved to a near by club which was the best thing that ever happened me. Hard to beleive the IRFU will now tell people they can't move! Something you would expect to see in China or Korea maybe but not here. Probably illegal to prevent this under EU laws and pretty sure it wouldn't stand up to a legal challenge. If a player wants to leave let him leave better for the club and player in the long run.

Have to laugh at the clubs going on about money changing hands when it is these very clubs who threw more money around than anybody years ago and now want to preach to everyone else that it wrong! Money has no place in the amateur game and people would be very suprised at the clubs that throw it around not the big clubs as you would expect but Junior clubs and lower down Senior Clubs trying deseprately to get back to their glory days. Top clubs spend well on facillites,equipment, gym, coaching and the odd knees up for the players.The big money is gone and the IRFU are bolting the stable door after the horse has long gone but I am sure mr IRFU will tell us different

JustinDee

Give an example of a "top club". There are junior clubs out there which thrive, spend wisely on facilities, have committees made up of good range of skills and personalities, and are busy with good numbers in memberships. There are senior clubs who have borrowed way beyond the realms of any good business sense for squad and management and are on the brink of ruin. A good club in my view is a club that is like the former.

CGD

JustinDee wrote: »

Give an example of a "top club". There are junior clubs out there which thrive, spend wisely on facilities, have committees made up of good range of skills and personalities, and are busy with good numbers in memberships. There are senior clubs who have borrowed way beyond the realms of any good business sense for squad and management and are on the brink of ruin. A good club in my view is a club that is like the former.

I knew mr IRFU would be on!

You mis understand my "top cluubs" reference it is any rugby club that runs itself well financially not neccessarily wlways well on the pitch but they have to perform to a certain level to atrract people and sponsors. Plenty of examples in Junior & Senior Clubs but also plenty of poor examples in Junior & Senior Clubs. Probably 2 examples of each within 10 minutes of your HQ

Not Playing Tiddlywinks Vinny

backgreen wrote: »

AND john Hayes skills academy

Propping and rucking academy!!

good_afternoon

Not Playing Tiddlywinks Vinny wrote: »

What is the story with transferring after the deadline?

From the Limerick side there are a lot of rumours.
Alex Simpson, Darragh Frawley - Bohs, Darren Gallagher - YM, Wayne Murphy - Tomand and James Murphy - Shannon all going to Richmond.

Tom Goggin - YM and his brother Dan - St. Munchins College going back to bohs while on the way out are skipper Ed Kelly, Mossy Lawler, Ben Martin, Darren Moroney and Sean Renisson.

Garryowen look set to gain heavily from other clubs with the likes of Tadhg Bennett - Shannon, Dan Heffernan - Shannon and Darrgh O' Neill - YM. Although they will lose David Sherry to Lansdowne, Corey Hircock to Bedford, Sean Scanlon to England, Matt Jarvis going home and Thomas Anderson going home.

Apparently both schools players Gearoid Lyons and Greg O Shea are taking up academy contracts in Ulster and Leinster respectively.

Some of these are just rumours but others are definite. It will be a very interesting 2013/2014 with a lot of new look teams.

Not Playing Tiddlywinks Vinny

good_afternoon wrote: »

From the Limerick side there are a lot of rumours.
Alex Simpson, Darragh Frawley - Bohs, Darren Gallagher - YM, Wayne Murphy - Tomand and James Murphy - Shannon all going to Richmond.

Tom Goggin - YM and his brother Dan - St. Munchins College going back to bohs while on the way out are skipper Ed Kelly, Mossy Lawler, Ben Martin, Darren Moroney and Sean Renisson.

Garryowen look set to gain heavily from other clubs with the likes of Tadhg Bennett - Shannon, Dan Heffernan - Shannon and Darrgh O' Neill - YM. Although they will lose David Sherry to Lansdowne, Corey Hircock to Bedford, Sean Scanlon to England, Matt Jarvis going home and Thomas Anderson going home.

Apparently both schools players Gearoid Lyons and Greg O Shea are taking up academy contracts in Ulster and Leinster respectively.

Some of these are just rumours but others are definite. It will be a very interesting 2013/2014 with a lot of new look teams.

Heard Tadgh Bennett may be heading down to 2B as a former player, surprised to hear that Murphy is (the no.7 right?). JJ Hanrahan to G'owen along with Jack O Donoghue, Darren Moroney.

Bohs will do the usual of recruiting lads from everywhere. Niall Kenneally on the move from their as well. Will Ben Martin bring lads to Bruff??

YM are gonna struggle this year, John Staunton and Keehan don't have the biggest player pull, be full of young lads. Think there are rumours of 6-8 lads leaving from them.

Ruck Inspector

Winners = bolded

Division 1A:
Player of the Year nominees: Craig Ronaldson (Lansdowne), Ron Boucher (Lansdowne), Ronan O'Mahony (Garryowen).

Young Player of the Year nominees: James Cronin (Dolphin), Johnny Holland (Cork Con), Charlie Butterworth (Lansdowne).

Division 1B:
Player of the Year nominees: Cathal Marsh (Dublin University), Barry Daly (UCD), Stuart Morrow (Ballynahinch).

Division 2A:
Player of the Year nominees: Willie Staunton (Terenure), Willie Ryan (UCC), Peter Lydon (Seapoint).

Division 2B:
Player of the Year nominees: Henry Bryce (Naas), Mark O'Connor (Rainey Old Boys), Eoin O'Neill (Thomond).