ESB Great Electric Drive

Electric Ireland: David

Alanstrainor wrote: »

If anyone from the ESB is watching/reading...all this talk of EVs has left me wanting one! Give us a go sure?!!?

Couldn't resist...

There's actually a Public Test Drive Day on the 11th July as part of Fully Charged 2012 (organized by ESB ecars on behalf of the Green eMotion EU project), which could give you the chance to experience driving one. No harm in applying for the Great Electric Drive too.

Electric Ireland: David

Electric Ireland: David wrote: »

Couldn't resist...

There's actually a Public Test Drive Day on the 11th July as part of Fully Charged 2012 (organized by ESB ecars on behalf of the Green eMotion EU project), which could give you the chance to experience driving one. No harm in applying for the Great Electric Drive too.

Nice that the ESB are watching!

I want a Leaf!

From the my nissanleafforum

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=7828&start=40

For me the important information coming from Phil's data is the fact that the BMS protects only 2% capacity at the bottom and ~5% at the top. Unlike the Prius NiMH battery that Toyota won't let you abuse, your use pattern on the LEAF will truly affect the longevity of the pack. We knew that going in, now we have the numbers to prove it.

Further proof that you should "ONLY" charge to 80% when you absolutely "DON'T" need the full range. For instance if only travelling 40 miles in one day then absolutely take advantage of the 80% charge option in the Leaf's menu!

And it's also important to "NOT" run the battery down too low!

September1

Deleted User wrote: »

From the my nissanleafforum

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=7828&start=40




Further proof that you should "ONLY" charge to 80% when you absolutely "DON'T" need the full range. For instance if only travelling 40 miles in one day then absolutely take advantage of the 80% charge option in the Leaf's menu!

And it's also important to "NOT" run the battery down too low!

This is suggestion from one of posters there, there is other one who did 60.000 km on full charges and it does not seem to affect him much.
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1075494_11-months-36000-miles-in-a-nissan-leaf-electric-car-no-problem

Yawlboy

I signed up for the ESB Great Electric Drive then sat down and did the maths. I reckoned I could buy a Leaf for about €50 a month over my current Saab, with cheaper Tax, Insurance, servicing costs and no fuel costs.

I went and had a test drive and I have to say I was impressed BUT I was concerned about the range. My commute is 100kms give or take and I wanted to be sure that I could do it without recharging. The garage agreed to let me try it and last friday I set off to do the trip in reverse - from Cork to Youghal and back again. Now to see how things went the garage sent a mechanic along with me. The car was fully charged and was brand new as it had 99kms on the clock. It was lashing with rain so we had wipers and lights on but no AC - car was in ECO mode with the radio on. Indicated range was 185kms.

Drove to Youghal on the M25 at 100kph on the Dual Carriageway and 90kph on the single lane stuff. Now to be fair I did hit 120kph at one stage at the start of the dual carriageway as the car is so quiet you don't realise how fast you are going. So after that I then used cruise control for a lot of the drive.

Once parked in Youghal car showed a range of 73kms. Now we didn't have any recharging cables or access to any way of recharging so we set off back for Cork. Eco mode with no lights/wipers/radio/AC on. 90kph maximum all the ways up and driving as efficiently as I could. At Silversprings the car beeped a warning saying range was 12kms......... Made it to the dealership on the Western road with a range of 8kms. Total trip was 103kms.

I decided not to purchase the car as I felt that I wouldn't feel comfortable with a vehicle that can only do my 100kms commute if it is driven slowly without any AC/radio etc. I have read that Nissan say the Leafs batteries will have 80% capacity after 5 years. That just isn't good enough for me - a car with a real world range of 80kms.

Sesshoumaru

Yawlboy wrote: »

I signed up for the ESB Great Electric Drive then sat down and did the maths. I reckoned I could buy a Leaf for about €50 a month over my current Saab, with cheaper Tax, Insurance, servicing costs and no fuel costs.

I went and had a test drive and I have to say I was impressed BUT I was concerned about the range. My commute is 100kms give or take and I wanted to be sure that I could do it without recharging. The garage agreed to let me try it and last friday I set off to do the trip in reverse - from Cork to Youghal and back again. Now to see how things went the garage sent a mechanic along with me. The car was fully charged and was brand new as it had 99kms on the clock. It was lashing with rain so we had wipers and lights on but no AC - car was in ECO mode with the radio on. Indicated range was 185kms.

Drove to Youghal on the M25 at 100kph on the Dual Carriageway and 90kph on the single lane stuff. Now to be fair I did hit 120kph at one stage at the start of the dual carriageway as the car is so quiet you don't realise how fast you are going. So after that I then used cruise control for a lot of the drive.

Once parked in Youghal car showed a range of 73kms. Now we didn't have any recharging cables or access to any way of recharging so we set off back for Cork. Eco mode with no lights/wipers/radio/AC on. 90kph maximum all the ways up and driving as efficiently as I could. At Silversprings the car beeped a warning saying range was 12kms......... Made it to the dealership on the Western road with a range of 8kms. Total trip was 103kms.

I decided not to purchase the car as I felt that I wouldn't feel comfortable with a vehicle that can only do my 100kms commute if it is driven slowly without any AC/radio etc. I have read that Nissan say the Leafs batteries will have 80% capacity after 5 years. That just isn't good enough for me - a car with a real world range of 80kms.

Can you put up a link to Google Maps with the route you took? and maybe tell us how many bars you used on the first half of your trip? Fuel guage has 12 bars, how many did you use on the first half? A few things to note:

1. Wipers, Lights & Rear Demister use very little energy. The car displays how much they use separately, it's a few hundred watts.

2. ECO mode has zero affect on motorway driving

3. You have no experience driving an EV, range improves with experience.

My wife and I have gotten a maximum range of ~160km with mixed suburban/motorway driving. Driving on 99% pure motorway, I managed 130 km a few weeks ago. You get more range off motorways where speed is lower/wind resistance lower and you have more opportunities for regen braking.

You might also check out this guys blog, he does 110km each way on his daily commute:

http://selfficiency.wordpress.com/

Yawlboy

My Route was - I drove from the dealers on the western road in along the quays out through Tivoli and followed the N25 to the Rincrew Roundabout in Youghal then I stopped in Lidl car park. Through Youghal town, up the lighthouse hill and out the R634 to the N25 to Cork, back in through Tivoli and turned up by the City Hall, along the quays, and out to the western road. If I remember correctly I had 6 bars remaining when in Youghal but it may have been 5.

1. I just wanted to let people know what I was using - mainly no AC.

2. The dealer insisted in it being in Eco mode - I had read that it was only of use in the city but I just did as requested.

3. To be honest you are correct I do not have a lot of experience in an EV but what I liked about the leaf on the initial test drive was that fact it was so normal to drive. I have now driven about 120kms in an EV and I must say I enjoyed it, however I need a car I can use as a car, not something where I continuously have to monitor remaining power and feel I have to drive conservatively all the time. If it makes any difference I got 2 "trees" in both directions on my trip.

I do think that electric cars are the future but I think that the current leaf does not suit my needs. Especially if the battery will lose 20% of its capacity over time. If I felt I could just jump in the car and drive it with AC etc to and from work and have 20% charge left I would have placed the order on Friday but based on my experience I would not feel comfortable with it as my sole means of getting to work.

September1

I'm not sure about 80% after 5 years in Ireland, time will show in 4 years (nissan claims to be 8 years in us) - but I think you have driven "properly" and your results are realistic and in-line with my LEAF usage over last 6 months. In "electric pro driving" you can beat 200kms but that would be inhumane to people driving behind you.

September1

September1 wrote: »

This is suggestion from one of posters there, there is other one who did 60.000 km on full charges and it does not seem to affect him much.
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1075494_11-months-36000-miles-in-a-nissan-leaf-electric-car-no-problem

I didn't see where he charged to 100% all the time ? And 40K miles means absolutely nothing regarding renaming battery life. The fact he can charge at work is a big + and he may only discharge to 30% or so. If he can make it on 80% and still leave some at the bottom that would be very good!

if the battery has 1000 cycles, for the chemistry I think it's a little lower, but say 1000 full cycles = say 60,000 miles if you average 60 miles per charge. 70,000 if you get 70 miles per charge etc to 70% after.

The thing is you will never really empty it, But I don't like the fact that 100 % charge is very close to 100%.

The other big factor is time itself, and heat. But the Irish climate is very battery friendly.

Ideally you should leave 20% at the top and 20% at the bottom for long life, that way you could see 150,000 -2,000 cycles

Even Nissan can't tell the remaining life of their batteries, they can tell it has full capacity or not, or the percentage remaining but not how long more you will get. The best thing they might have is a logger on the BMS that would be most useful in determining how long the battery should last based on field tests.

One of the best ways to tell the condition of the battery is to measure internal resistance which increases as the battery ages, and makes it harder for the battery to provide full power. I don't know if Nissan can tell this, but they would probably not tell you.

September1

September1 wrote: »

I'm not sure about 80% after 5 years in Ireland, time will show in 4 years (nissan claims to be 8 years in us) - but I think you have driven "properly" and your results are realistic and in-line with my LEAF usage over last 6 months. In "electric pro driving" you can beat 200kms but that would be inhumane to people driving behind you.

I think Nissan state 70% after 10 years ? That's normal use say 10,000 miles a year or less. The battery has 100,000 mile warranty, but they don't state what exactly that covers, for instance if you are have 60,000 miles on the clock and you have lost 10% capacity, that afaik, would be described as acceptable or normal wear and wouldn't be covered.

100,000 miles over 10 years is about 30 miles a day. That's around what the car was designed for But it can do 60 a day easily on one charge or 120+ miles a day with access to fast chargers. Or if you can charge at work.

The zoe has the best potential to use public chargers because there are far far more 3 phase ac points than fast DC and the chargers are being upgraded to 44kw for fast charging.

extremetaz

@ yawlboy:

There is one other lad covering similar distance - he commutes from North Tipp to Dublin, 105km each way. So the car can do it, but you are correct in that it is at the outer edge of it's ability at 100kmh.

We usually get 115km without even having to think about driving particularly conservatively, and that's with the climate control on.

I'd say you'll have to wait another few years before they'll be up to the point of reaching your comfort level - but it won't too long, another 3-4 at the most I'd expect.

If you can live with it as it is though, you're bang on wrt the running costs.

I replaced my IMA Civic for our one. +€70 on the finance and +€80 in the monthly ESB costs, but's that's offset against the elimination of a €400+ petrol bill every month, and our commute is 73km each way, so it's readily achievable.

I wouldn't go back to the old car for all the tea in china!

extremetaz

extremetaz wrote: »

............

I replaced my IMA Civic for our one. +€70 on the finance and +€80 in the monthly ESB costs, but's that's offset against the elimination of a €400+ petrol bill every month, and our commute is 73km each way, so it's readily achievable.

I wouldn't go back to the old car for all the tea in china!

Are you the lad who has to stop for a 20 minute charge on the way home every day?

extremetaz

RoverJames wrote: »

Are you the lad who has to stop for a 20 minute charge on the way home every day?

the very same.


edit: actually - all of that conversation is in this very thread. I wasn't sure if you were genuinely asking the question or being sarcastic.
so just for the record, I *still* wouldn't go back ICE, and the need for that stop will disappear as soon as my workplace charger is installed, which ain't that far away.

extremetaz

extremetaz wrote: »

the very same.


edit: actually - all of that conversation is in this very thread. I wasn't sure if you were genuinely asking the question or being sarcastic.
so just for the record, I *still* wouldn't go back ICE, and the need for that stop will disappear as soon as my workplace charger is installed, which ain't that far away.

If you get the charger installed in work and you can make it on 80% charge, definitely do it! You really want to get as much life from that battery as possible!

September1

Deleted User wrote: »

The zoe has the best potential to use public chargers because there are far far more 3 phase ac points than fast DC and the chargers are being upgraded to 44kw for fast charging.

Well, only CHAdeMO chargers would be upgraded to 44kw AC and regular AC are limited to 21kW - which is still great power.

extremetaz

Mad_Lad wrote: »

If you get the charger installed in work and you can make it on 80% charge, definitely do it! You really want to get as much life from that battery as possible!

80% is all the DC chargers give you and it is enough but that aside, don't get too caught up in the whole partial charge thing. As long as you're fully cycling the battery it makes no appreciable difference. It's really only advice for the urban user who's not using the battery enough to get the best out of it in the first place.

Think of it more as a battery maintenance procedure (ie: storage for when not in use) rather than a cyclical usage guideline.

extremetaz

September1 wrote: »

Well, only CHAdeMO chargers would be upgraded to 44kw AC and regular AC are limited to 21kW - which is still great power.

Yup - and the full capacity neither is any use to the Renault unfortunately.

extremetaz

extremetaz wrote: »

80% is all the DC chargers give you and it is enough but that aside, don't get too caught up in the whole partial charge thing. As long as you're fully cycling the battery it makes no appreciable difference. It's really only advice for the urban user who's not using the battery enough to get the best out of it in the first place.

Think of it more as a battery maintenance procedure (ie: storage for when not in use) rather than a cyclical usage guideline.

If you intend to get full life out of the battery above 60,000 miles then I'm afraid it matters a lot!, it's fully cycling the battery is what actually matters!

Sure storing the car at 60% is great too, but using the middle of the battery matters a lot.

If you do little miles then it still makes sense to use the middle part of the battery, but in the end time will probably matter most to the low mileage driver.

September1

September1 wrote: »

Well, only CHAdeMO chargers would be upgraded to 44kw AC and regular AC are limited to 21kW - which is still great power.

The Zoe has the CHAdeMo charger yes ?

AFAIK all the ac 20kw were being upgraded to 44 kw ?

extremetaz

Deleted User wrote: »

it's fully cycling the battery is what actually matters!

do you mean this in the sense that this is what should be done for best battery life, or in the sense that this is what tires the battery out as it were?

for the record, we always charge to 100% but we're regularly down to as little as 2 bars left (and even 1 bar) depending on what little local errands we run outside of the commute.

extremetaz

extremetaz wrote: »

do you mean this in the sense that this is what should be done for best battery life, or in the sense that this is what tires the battery out as it were?

for the record, we always charge to 100% but we're regularly down to as little as 2 bars left (and even 1 bar) depending on what little local errands we run outside of the commute.

Yes ABSOLUTELY, without doubt for higher mileage E.V drivers to get the most life out of your battery use as little of the battery as possible.

Charging to 100% and being down to 90-95 % in 30 mins doesn't matter, the battery doesn't care as far as it's concerned, it's still closer to a full charge. And closer to being 1 cycle.

Use the middle part, don't charge to 100% as I've learned that while it's not really 100% we all know that, it's too close for my liking. Don't run to turtle mode, once in a while won't do much harm but it's not advisable.

Battery capacity loss is a slow process and while you may get 60,000 miles and still have full reported capacity, it's doesn't tell you how many years or miles you have left.

Nissan never intended people to rack up 100,000 miles in 3 years and I can see it possible to get 150,000 miles with proper care. The Irish climate is also very good for batteries because we don't have heat. And heat they don't like.

It will be interesting to see how long they actually last.

Their new NMC battery for 2014-15 will be a whole lot better and could easily see 30kw/hrs for a real 100 miles range at 100-110 kph, more capacity will depend on cost.

September1

Deleted User wrote: »

The Zoe has the CHAdeMo charger yes ?

No, it has own charger which takes AC - totally unlike CHAdeMO which is DC.

Deleted User wrote: »

AFAIK all the ac 20kw were being upgraded to 44 kw ?

I understood from this picture on presentation and talking with company maintaining CHAdeMO that only those chargers would upgraded to fast AC.
http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa336/o00scorpion00o/Public%20Pics/EVChargers.png

I could be wrong, let me know what do you base this statement on?

extremetaz wrote:

do you mean this in the sense that this is what should be done for best battery life, or in the sense that this is what tires the battery out as it were?

There is limited sure knowledge about that, obviously Nissan did not have time to run 10 year tests in every possible condition. Some people on Internet make some assumptions based on few cars in certain geographic location. For a while it seemed that people who had LEAF charged to 100% were affected, subsequently similar issues were reported by people who did 80% charge. Indeed those batteries like shallow cycling and do not like being stored in fully charged state. Your LEAF charges them only to 95% when it claims that charge is 100% for that reason and there are some other techniques utilized to protect battery. If you need 100% charge just set timer to finish charging at time you are supposed to leave. However if you are going to manage your batteries basing on Internet wisdom it is also recommended to once in a while charge 100% and turn on climate control remotely afterwards to balance batteries.

According to Nissan shipping documents found by some user in US, they recommended to keep car at 1-3 bars during shipping process from Japan - which would indicate that it is good charge level to keep batteries when car is not used.

September1

September1 wrote: »

No, it has own charger which takes AC - totally unlike CHAdeMO which is DC.


I understood from this picture on presentation and talking with company maintaining CHAdeMO that only those chargers would upgraded to fast AC.
http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa336/o00scorpion00o/Public%20Pics/EVChargers.png

I could be wrong, let me know what do you base this statement on?



There is limited sure knowledge about that, obviously Nissan did not have time to run 10 year tests in every possible condition. Some people on Internet make some assumptions based on few cars in certain geographic location. For a while it seemed that people who had LEAF charged to 100% were affected, subsequently similar issues were reported by people who did 80% charge. Indeed those batteries like shallow cycling and do not like being stored in fully charged state. Your LEAF charges them only to 95% when it claims that charge is 100% for that reason and there are some other techniques utilized to protect battery. If you need 100% charge just set timer to finish charging at time you are supposed to leave. However if you are going to manage your batteries basing on Internet wisdom it is also recommended to once in a while charge 100% and turn on climate control remotely afterwards to balance batteries.

According to Nissan shipping documents found by some user in US, they recommended to keep car at 1-3 bars during shipping process from Japan - which would indicate that it is good charge level to keep batteries when car is not used.

I got an E-mail from John Whelan from Ecars and (afaik, I need to re-read at home) all type 2 chargers which currently are 22 kw or so will be upgraded to 44 kw, and perhaps more as required, though the speed of the upgrade nobody knows and you won't have any idea if they are upgraded. (yet)

But as I said there are far more ac (as in typr 2) than DC, I can't see as many fast dc as fast ac because of cost.

Still we will need much faster charging in the not so distant future as even 50 kw dc won't be fast enough in the not so distant future.

If it takes 30 mins from 0-80% for a 20kw/hr battery a 40 kw/hr would take 1 hour for 80%, but 30 mins would probably still be enough to get you to your destination.

Nissan are testing 10 min charging, that would have to be over 100kw of power maybe 150 kw ? that's a lot of juice and perhaps where we will see super capacitors arrive.

I keep forgetting the Zoe has the charger on board.

September1

September1 wrote: »

There is limited sure knowledge about that, obviously Nissan did not have time to run 10 year tests in every possible condition. Some people on Internet make some assumptions based on few cars in certain geographic location. For a while it seemed that people who had LEAF charged to 100% were affected, subsequently similar issues were reported by people who did 80% charge. Indeed those batteries like shallow cycling and do not like being stored in fully charged state. Your LEAF charges them only to 95% when it claims that charge is 100% for that reason and there are some other techniques utilized to protect battery. If you need 100% charge just set timer to finish charging at time you are supposed to leave. However if you are going to manage your batteries basing on Internet wisdom it is also recommended to once in a while charge 100% and turn on climate control remotely afterwards to balance batteries.

The whole thing is nobody knows how much at the top and bottom Nissan has actually left. And how many kw/hrs is actually in the pack.

But there is no escaping the fact that the more you leave in the battery top and bottom, the more cycles you will get, the more miles you will get, how much time will effect it no one knows yet, but it can only effect it.

By the way ESB I still want a Zoe or Leaf thanks!

extremetaz

Right - I've the car set to charge 80% for tomorrow morning, we'll see how that works out. The maths all says that it'll be enough but the journey itself will tell the tale. Reckon it'll leave us with only the 1 bar left reaching the fast charger in Park west.

To be honest if that's the case, I don't see myself sticking with 80% charging. If there was a 90% mode, that'd be a reasonable compromise but as I said, tomorrow will tell the tale.

Deleted User wrote: »

I keep forgetting the Zoe has the charger on board.

.. I'm a little confused by this - I'm not aware of any that don't have the charger onboard.

Deleted User wrote: »

But as I said there are far more ac (as in typr 2) than DC, I can't see as many fast dc as fast ac because of cost.

I also don't follow this - fast AC would require a high current charger onboard, fast DC is only possible because the enormous weight of such a charger is housed offboard ie: the DC "charge access point" is in fact, the charger. The ChaDemo socket is a direct line to the battery pack and the appropriate cell monitoring connections.

If 80% doesn't do there is no point worrying about it, if you need it use it. The point I was making if you don't need the range, then only charge to 80%.

The Leaf has a 3.3 kw charger or there abouts on board, and can fast charge from a dc outlet.

Zoe has the fast ac charger on board but can't fast dc charge.

It means currently Zoe will be able to charge in under an hour from most if not all type 2 chargers. The leaf has much less fast chargers available.

The type II chargers are being upgraded to 44 kw for 30 min charging.

Leaf 2013 will have a battery heater and an upgraded charger to 6.5 kw, afaik Zoe can charge as fast as your home charger or wiring will allow on single phase.

You are not that far from me from park west. I might call over.

Shane732

What happens if you don't make it to Parkwest?

It's one thing buying a car with a limited range like that, it's another deciding to play games with the range!!

EV guys are nuts!

beazee

Shane732 wrote: »

What happens if you don't make it to Parkwest?

LOL I just had to laugh at that.

Well the Leaf can do 120 miles a day easily, and the Park West fast charger will take care of that, as I said, If you need the range then charge to 100%, I'm only saying if you absolutely know you will make it on 80% charge then you would be mad not to.