ESB Great Electric Drive

wonski

RoverJames wrote: »

For those who don't have a clue what the OP is on about..

http://www.esb.ie/electric-cars/electric-car-driving/the-great-electric-drive.jsp

Would you like to join our team of ecar ambassadors and drive an electric car for up to a year? Well here's your chance...
ESB ecars has just launched The Great Electric Drive and is selecting members of the general public to take part in an electric car trial. We are looking for people with a range of different lifestyles to get plugged in and share their electric driving experience with us. So, if you're a car enthusiast, a technology whizz, a green-consumer, a business professional or think that your family would like to take part, just let us know why you are the ideal candidate. If you want the chance to join our team of ecar ambassadors and experience the thrill of electric driving, then this is the perfect opportunity for you!
The selected ambassadors will trial one of the following electric car models; Nissan LEAF, Mitsubishi iMiEV and a Renault Kangoo Z.E. commercial electric van. Twenty people in total will participate in the year-long trial, four of which will trial an ecar for a year and sixteen people will trial the ecars for a period of three months each.

For anyone who is not interested in keeping it for a year for free, but would like a test drive - there is FULLY CHARGED 2012 summit taking place in Dublin next month. There is test drive application for general public.
Never had a chance to drive electric car, hope they let me do it. I am not that desperate to do it, so if anyone wants to apply feel free to follow the link. Not sure what criteria they use to determine who gets it, and who doesn't... Good luck.

http://www.fullycharged2012.com/testdrive.html

Shane732

wonski wrote: »

For anyone who is not interested in keeping it for a year for free, but would like a test drive - there is FULLY CHARGED 2012 summit taking place in Dublin next month. There is test drive application for general public.
Never had a chance to drive electric car, hope they let me do it. I am not that desperate to do it, so if anyone wants to apply feel free to follow the link. Not sure what criteria they use to determine who gets it, and who doesn't... Good luck.

http://www.fullycharged2012.com/testdrive.html

No Tesla S or Roadster

maggy_thatcher

Deleted User wrote: »

Again what makes sense is you buy a car that meets 90% or more of your driving needs, not the 10% or less it may not. That does not make sense.

I disagree completely. Say for sake of argument you drive every day - 328 days of which you drive within the range of an EV, 37 days you don't. With a normal car, or an extended-range car, you're fine for both scenarios. For the 37 days you need to go further out, you have to either:

1. Be prepared for some long waits mid-journey, assuming you can plot a route with charging points on the way
2. Hope there is a car-rental point near your house so that you can swap cars for awhile.
3. Have a second car that can do the journey
4. Simply not travel

I'm in that position right now - about 90% of my journeys are well within range of an EV, but the inconvenience factor for those additional 10% of journeys is so much higher that it's just not reasonable to get one.

What makes sense for me is to either buy a car that matches about 99% of your journeys (so the inconvenience of renting a different car isn't hit that often), or own two cars (if you're rich enough).

maggy_thatcher

maggy_thatcher wrote: »

I disagree completely. Say for sake of argument you drive every day - 328 days of which you drive within the range of an EV, 37 days you don't. With a normal car, or an extended-range car, you're fine for both scenarios. For the 37 days you need to go further out, you have to either:

1. Be prepared for some long waits mid-journey, assuming you can plot a route with charging points on the way
2. Hope there is a car-rental point near your house so that you can swap cars for awhile.
3. Have a second car that can do the journey
4. Simply not travel

I'm in that position right now - about 90% of my journeys are well within range of an EV, but the inconvenience factor for those additional 10% of journeys is so much higher that it's just not reasonable to get one.

What makes sense for me is to either buy a car that matches about 99% of your journeys (so the inconvenience of renting a different car isn't hit that often), or own two cars (if you're rich enough).

I understand where you are coming from, however I'm 100% not willing to keep paying 60 euro's for a weeks driving when I could do it for 8-12 Euro's all for the sake of the 5-10 % the e.v might not meet my needs!

I'm not in a position to be able to buy an ev now and probably not for a while, remember the Leaf II is due in 2014-15 with a completely new battery chemistry, hopefully more rang!

The Zoe will be available in December, and it's supposed to have more range, that's unknown yet!

Sesshoumaru

maggy_thatcher wrote: »

I disagree completely. Say for sake of argument you drive every day - 328 days of which you drive within the range of an EV, 37 days you don't. With a normal car, or an extended-range car, you're fine for both scenarios. For the 37 days you need to go further out, you have to either:

1. Be prepared for some long waits mid-journey, assuming you can plot a route with charging points on the way
2. Hope there is a car-rental point near your house so that you can swap cars for awhile.
3. Have a second car that can do the journey
4. Simply not travel

I'm in that position right now - about 90% of my journeys are well within range of an EV, but the inconvenience factor for those additional 10% of journeys is so much higher that it's just not reasonable to get one.

What makes sense for me is to either buy a car that matches about 99% of your journeys (so the inconvenience of renting a different car isn't hit that often), or own two cars (if you're rich enough).

10% sounds like a nice round number. I'd say for my family and I it's less than 1% of the time. My wife and I have done 27,000 kilometers in our EV now and it has been exceedingly rare we've felt inconvenienced by the range. TBH the inconvenience stems more from the lack of charging facilities, which are improving dramatically.

Originally the ESB plan called for 30 FCP's nationwide and I think we're at 29 now. From what I've been told, the possibility of tripling the number of these FCP's this year is being examined. It seems EV owners (ones with 50kw DC ports anyway) are using the FCP's far more frequently than was anticipated. These are the chargers that allow a Leaf to charge in 30 minutes. Using these I've done over 400 kilometers in one day in my Leaf.

I bring that up because, people on this thread are talking about long journeys (for Ireland) as though they are impossible in an EV. It's certainly not as fast as an ICE car, but I've done Dublin to Galway and back to Dublin in one day with my family.

FCP = Fast Charging Point

Sesshoumaru

How far can you drive using FCP's?

One of the biggest problems with this Backward Island is the gombeans we have planning the motorway infrastructure, and the muppets that make the regulations!

Apart from the M4 ? there are no facilities on the motorway network and the E.S.B can't put them anywhere without power! so motorists will have to detour 3 or 4 kms in some cased to find a charger!

We also need fast chargers in tourist locations, for example, Glendalough or Laragh. Glenmalure lodge, Rathdrum etc various locations where people might like to take a weekend trip.

It's not just the bigger towns and cities we need these chargers.

Yawlboy

This thread has got me seriously thinking of buying a Leaf, I've been looking at my commuting costs only:

Currently my Saab 9-5 Auto is averaging 11.65l/100kms and my daily commute is 100kms so I am spending €18.86 a day or €94.30 a week on petrol. Which is €377 a month.

Buying a new Leaf would cost me approx €20k = €409 a month (€20k over 60 months @ 9.4%) + €1.60 a day or €8 a week in electricity Which is €441 a month.

So to move to a new leaf will cost me €68 a month or €816 a year more but my road tax will be €500 less so €316 more a year for a new car with Satnav, bluetooth, automatic etc. Thats a pretty good deal in my opinion.

Sesshoumaru

Deleted User wrote: »

One of the biggest problems with this Backward Island is the gombeans we have planning the motorway infrastructure, and the muppets that make the regulations!

Apart from the M4 ? there are no facilities on the motorway network and the E.S.B can't put them anywhere without power! so motorists will have to detour 3 or 4 kms in some cased to find a charger!

We also need fast chargers in tourist locations, for example, Glendalough or Laragh. Glenmalure lodge, Rathdrum etc various locations where people might like to take a weekend trip.

It's not just the bigger towns and cities we need these chargers.

In relation to tourists, ESB have some fantastic plans in motion in partnership with one or two others firms. Can't really discuss all the details at this stage, but this is part of what they are doing.

http://www.esb.ie/electric-cars/electric-car-enterprise/green-hotel-drive.jsp

Apparently the uptake from hotels has been very good. These charge points are identical to what home users get on the side of their home. But they're ideal for hotels where fast/rapid charging is not essential.

Indeed that's good, but we also need them in location where people might like to go on weekend trips, for instance to Brittas bay, Glendalough etc.

In the west, cliffs of Moher etc.

B&B owners could also think about installing chargers ?

Yawlboy

Yawlboy wrote: »

This thread has got me seriously thinking of buying a Leaf, I've been looking at my commuting costs only:

Currently my Saab 9-5 Auto is averaging 11.65l/100kms and my daily commute is 100kms so I am spending €18.86 a day or €94.30 a week on petrol. Which is €377 a month.

Buying a new Leaf would cost me approx €20k = €409 a month (€20k over 60 months @ 9.4%) + €1.60 a day or €8 a week in electricity Which is €441 a month.

So to move to a new leaf will cost me €68 a month or €816 a year more but my road tax will be €500 less so €316 more a year for a new car with Satnav, bluetooth, automatic etc. Thats a pretty good deal in my opinion.

.... from a purely financial viewpoint you could put yourself any number of cars with double the mpg of the saab for zero outlay. Half your fuel costs and have no need to borrow 20k.

dev100

The sceptic thats in me. Am I the only one who thinks charging your electric car will be as dear as filling up a standard 1.9 diesel or a 1.4 petrol car. The Gov will not allow losing revenue generated from fuel sales.

Shane732

dev100 wrote: »

The sceptic thats in me. Am I the only one who thinks charging your electric car will be as dear as filling up a standard 1.9 diesel or a 1.4 petrol car. The Gov will not allow losing revenue generated from fuel sales.

In time of course things will change.

The amount of revenue that's taken in for fuel associated taxes couldn't be lost from the exchequer.

Shane732

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

How far can you drive using FCP's?

In fairness it doesn't really show anything, it's like saying how far can you drive using petrol pumps?

According to the people in the film it accelerates quick though...... :pac:

Sesshoumaru

Shane732 wrote: »

In fairness it doesn't really show anything, it's like saying how far can you drive using petrol pumps?

According to the people in the film it accelerates quick though...... :pac:

Some people may not know what fast charging is or what the hell I'm talking about I posted to video to help illustrate.

Shane732

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Some people may not know what fast charging is or what the hell I'm talking about I posted to video to help illustrate.

I would have thought that there was a fairly big clue in the name?

According to Nissan continuous fast charging will run the battery down quicker too.

Out of interest how many of these things have been registered in Ireland?

I read somewhere that like 2,000 have been registered throughout Europe. The Leaf must be a fair loss leader in Europe for Nissan at the moment. In fairness I'd like to see Nissan get a good market share once more people start going EV.

Sesshoumaru

dev100 wrote: »

The sceptic thats in me. Am I the only one who thinks charging your electric car will be as dear as filling up a standard 1.9 diesel or a 1.4 petrol car. The Gov will not allow losing revenue generated from fuel sales.

EV's give us the opportunity to build our own indigenous energy industry to supply energy for our own transport needs. That means local taxable jobs in our economy. They are also a nice fit for renewable energy and help make our national grid smarter and more efficient, which saves us money. See video below by Robert Llewellyn

Already for sale in Japan is a home charger that charges your Leaf and also allows you to run your home off the cars battery. So you could run your home off cheaper night rate electricity whenever your car is sitting in the driveway doing nothing. The battery pack was designed for a maximum output of 90kw, so running your home off it has such a small draw, it has no impact on battery life according to Nissan. So I guess I'm saying EV's will save us money in more way than one.

Zubeneschamali

Shane732 wrote: »

The Leaf must be a fair loss leader in Europe for Nissan at the moment.

Yeah, and they are cutting their prices further to try and build the market. I doubt that this Leaf or the next will make any money for Nissan.

.... and the revenue from fuel taxes will be forgotten about while we all run the house off cheap Leaf leccy?

Sesshoumaru

Shane732 wrote: »

I would have thought that there was a fairly big clue in the name?

According to Nissan continuous fast charging will run the battery down quicker too.

Out of interest how many of these things have been registered in Ireland?

I read somewhere that like 2,000 have been registered throughout Europe. The Leaf must be a fair loss leader in Europe for Nissan at the moment. In fairness I'd like to see Nissan get a good market share once more people start going EV.

The original manual with my car was recalled recently. The first manual I got said only fast charge once per day or week I think. The new manual says you can fast charge as often as you like and it will have no affect on battery life. The BMS will slow down the charging rate if the battery packs temperature starts to go up.

http://www.torquenews.com/1075/nissan-leaf-webchat-answers-questions-electric-car-fast-charging-and-more

Sherlocked...:(

Sesshoumaru

RoverJames wrote: »

.... and the revenue from fuel taxes will be forgotten about while we all run the house off cheap Leaf leccy?

Well I guess what I'm saying is that we live in a system. How can anyone take one part of the system and say that one part changed in isolation will change some other part in isolation. Maybe if we're spending less money on electricity we can have more money to spend on other things e.g. eating out, going to the cinema - stimulating other parts of the economy/system.

Shane732

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

EV's give us the opportunity to build our own indigenous energy industry to supply energy for our own transport needs. That means local taxable jobs in our economy. They are also a nice fit for renewable energy and help make our national grid smarter and more efficient, which saves us money. See video below by Robert Llewellyn

Already for sale in Japan is a home charger that charges your Leaf and also allows you to run your home off the cars battery. So you could run your home off cheaper night rate electricity whenever your car is sitting in the driveway doing nothing. The battery pack was designed for a maximum output of 90kw, so running your home off it has such a small draw, it has no impact on battery life according to Nissan. So I guess I'm saying EV's will save us money in more way than one.

Our own indigenous energy industry? Just a slight bit of a stretch isn't it? The Eirgrid Interconnector project would suggest that the focus isn't on creating our own indigenous energy industry, rather ensuring that the there is competition in the market in the future.

You really think that you'll be able to run your home off the Leaf? Doesn't the home charger only charge the car at some ridiculously low rate per hour?

jackofalltrades

Deleted User wrote: »

A 300 mile rage electric car would be hugely expensive, at current prices, so why would anyone want to pay more for range they will rarely need ? Faster charging and more chargers is what we need.

I'd say there would be strong consumer demand for a car with this kind of range. People want to be able to get into a car with little/no planning and just drive somewhere. A range like this would mean that drivers wouldn't have to be dependant on public charging points, they could happily charge their car while they were sleeping.

As long as this demand exists, people aren't going to take a risk on buying a car with a third of this range because they don't want to buy something that could become obselete and depreciate heavily in the future. The technology may be too expensive now but who knows what it could be like in 5 years.

wonski

Shane732 wrote: »

No Tesla S or Roadster

I know, i know... if they want people to want those electric cars, they should work harder next time.

Sesshoumaru

Shane732 wrote: »

Our own indigenous energy industry? Just a slight bit of a stretch isn't it? The Eirgrid Interconnector project would suggest that the focus isn't on creating our own indigenous energy industry, rather ensuring that the there is competition in the market in the future.

You really think that you'll be able to run your home off the Leaf? Doesn't the home charger only charge the car at some ridiculously low rate per hour?

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/nissan/nissan-leaf-%E2%80%98can-power-your-home%E2%80%99

You've been Sherlocked

All of Europe is connecting up. Good article about it.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2012/apr/11/iceland-volcano-green-power

People should also be aware that tle Leaf's slow sales are due to supply, and because of the Earthquake last year!

Nissan will be building the Leaf in the U.S next year I think ? and the U.K in 2014.

They currently can't keep up with demand!!!

Dirkster

i think I've found a solution to the range and charging point issue.http://www.donedeal.ie/for-sale/tools/3223521

Just toss it in the boot for long hauls...:D

MugMugs

I stuck my name down. I can't see me being given one but if they do then I'll give it a good run

extremetaz

Shane732 wrote: »

You really think that you'll be able to run your home off the Leaf? Doesn't the home charger only charge the car at some ridiculously low rate per hour?

Haven't read through this entire thread yet but just going to hop in on this point for second.

To answer the first question - The battery is entirely capable, no bother to it at all. However, the present onboard charger is not capable of bidirectional energy transfer as far as I'm aware.

To answer the second question - 3.6kW is the max rated charge for the leaf on AC charging (you may define that however you see fit )


To answer the arising questions - the current hardware on the car will not support bidirectional energy transfer and even if it did, it would indeed be limited to it's own 3.6kW capacity in the case of the leaf (6.6kW for the Fluence or the Focus) and so, whilst capable of running most household artifacts, would not happily support kettles, electric hobs, hairdryers, etc...

Bidirectional functionality will require a revised connection or on board charger arrangement. For future models, this functionality could be incorperated into the on board charger, although the power handling limitations of any such charger will still apply.

For present Leaf models, or any other car supporting the DC quickcharge option (ie: no the Fluence) the simplest solution would be to tap direct to the pack at that point and us and external inverter. This, naturally, incurs associated hardware costs.

extremetaz

Right, had a quick flick through and picked up on a few points.

The costs thing is all about definition - Shane is correct, all cars amount to cost, you never "save" money on a car. The only concern is how much it costs you on an ongoing basis. I'm not going to delve any farther into that as I've done it to death on another EV thread already. Bottom line, I switched from an IMA Civic to the Leaf in order to cut my monthly outgoings and it's worked marvelously!

Now - getting to the original point about the 130km commute. Assuming that's a roundtrip figure, then I'm happy to say that the Leaf is more than capable of it. If however, that's an each way figure - then it's not practial*. End of story. That's all there is to it. Don't even consider one (..yet )

My commute is 73km door-to-door, each way (so 146km total) ,daily. It starts from around the Kinnegad area and I work in the city center.

The Leaf gets in with about 50km to spare, on the way home then I stop off at the DC quickcharge at Park West for 20minutes, and then I'm away home happy as larry.

If that the sort of commute you do - then i couldn't recommend one highly enough to any two car household (our Megane doesn't get used much anymore, but we still have need of it the odd day and wouldn't be without it).


*by which I mean that although the car can manage that range, it would involve driving excessively conservatively. 115km is a reliable upper limit for normal steady driving with the AC on.