Is Katie Taylor Ireland best athlete

supersean1999

makl wrote: »

who would your top 5 female gymnasts in the world be? or cyclists? or kayakers? or soccer/rugby/basketball players?

womens sport is the problem. theres hardly any money outside of athletics and tennis so they wont be appearing on a tv near you. doesnt take away from their calibre.

did you read my post i said she was a fine athlete and i had respect,

walshb

ToiletFusion wrote: »

I'd rate Katie fairly highly, but Sonia O' Sullivan done great things for Irish sport and maintained that level for many years. Roy Keane was top of his trade for well over a decade too.

Is Katie our best athlete of the last few years... I'd say definitely, but ever, is a bit of a stretch.

EDIT: Hadn't seen the other thread that spawned from this...

I'll give you Sonia, but Keane? He's a soccer player in a team. Yes, a very good player too, but what did he achieve in comparison to Katie, or Sonia?

He had 10 others with him all the time. Katie and Sonia are alone. I rate Sean Kelly, Roche and Eamon Coghlan ahead of Roy Keane. DJ and Sheffelin too deserve a mention in regards to Keane. BOD is ahead of Keane.

KT has been the best p4p fighter on earth for about 6 solid years.

Dan_Solo

walshb wrote: »

I'll give you Sonia, but Keane? He's a soccer player in a team. Yes, a very good player too, but what did he achieve in comparison to Katie, or Sonia?

He had 10 others with him all the time.

Holding him back...

walshb

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Holding him back...

Lovin' that!:)

Spazdarn

walshb wrote: »

I'll give you Sonia, but Keane? He's a soccer player in a team. Yes, a very good player too, but what did he achieve in comparison to Katie, or Sonia?

He had 10 others with him all the time. Katie and Sonia are alone. I rate Sean Kelly, Roche and Eamon Coghlan ahead of Roy Keane. DJ and Sheffelin too deserve a mention in regards to Keane. BOD is ahead of Keane.

KT has been the best p4p fighter on earth for about 6 solid years.

He pretty much singled handedly got United their first champions league title in 30 odd years. He won seven league titles and multiple other competitions. Note yes it is a team game, but he's had to play with plenty of crap players in his years at United too so it balances out a bit when you take into account the quality of the players he played with.

Especially considering his performances for Ireland were excellent, and again the players he played with in the Ireland team were no great shakes either...

Barring possibly Shay Given (I think it's a stretch but however) he's the only truly world class player Ireland have had in the last 20 years.

Getting Ireland to the World Cup is a big deal, his actions at the World Cup we could debate about all day, but Keane the Irish athlete did great things for both club and country... People forget before Saipan there was 14 good years of service to the international team.

Katie has been P4P in a smaller pool of athletes than well say Keane being deemed player of the year in the FIFA world player of the year

walshb

BTW, in the pure footballer sense Roy was nothing amazing. He was solid, composed, rarely gave the ball away, did the little things right, but he wasn't a great ball player in the skilled and grace and natural sense. Like a ZZ, Maradona, Pele, Messi etc. There are dozens and dozens of Roy Keane's.

Spazdarn

walshb wrote: »

BTW, in the pure footballer sense Roy was nothing amazing. He was solid, composed, rarely gave the ball away, did the little things right, but he wasn't a great ball player in the skilled and grace and natural sense. Like a ZZ, Maradona, Pele, Messi etc. There are dozens and dozens of Roy Keane's.

I'd disagree in the last 20 years (Premiership) there's been one equal in his position, Patrick Viera, and I believe Keane was better.

Makalele was pretty good as a defensive midfielder but Keane was a box to box player able to defend and attack, so that's not really the same mould of player. He could tackle, pass, retain possession, lead those around him, defend, attack... he wasn't Lionel Messi or Maradona but they're flair players and possibility the greatest to ever play football. Hard to expect one of Ireland's greatest to compare with the greatest players ever.

cowzerp

ToiletFusion wrote: »

I'd disagree in the last 20 years (Premiership) there's been one equal in his position, Patrick Viera, and I believe Keane was better.

Makalele was pretty good as a defensive midfielder but Keane was a box to box player able to defend and attack, so that's not really the same mould of player. He could tackle, pass, retain possession, lead those around him, defend, attack... he wasn't Lionel Messi or Maradona but they're flair players and possibility the greatest to ever play football. Hard to expect one of Ireland's greatest to compare with the greatest players ever.

Mascherano would be up there.

Spazdarn

cowzerp wrote: »

Mascherano would be up there.

Hard to gauge Mascherano though, he didn't really do great at West Ham and wasn't at Liverpool really long enough to judge.

makl

wasn't havin a go at you, just replying to the bold bit. you were very clear that you respect her but there's a reason she's not shown in other countries and its not cos of lack of talent.

supersean1999 wrote: »

in nearly every other country in the world katie taylor would not be known or certainly not seen on chat shows etc, fine athlete she is and i respect what she has achieved, us irish have few top world class athletes in many sports ,

walshb

ToiletFusion wrote: »

I'd disagree in the last 20 years (Premiership) there's been one equal in his position, Patrick Viera, and I believe Keane was better.

Makalele was pretty good as a defensive midfielder but Keane was a box to box player able to defend and attack, so that's not really the same mould of player. He could tackle, pass, retain possession, lead those around him, defend, attack... he wasn't Lionel Messi or Maradona but they're flair players and possibility the greatest to ever play football. Hard to expect one of Ireland's greatest to compare with the greatest players ever.

Yes, and others would point to Vieira. And then there are the other leaguse too.

My point is that Keane was a very good player, but to me he did nothing amazing. He was a solid player, good tackler, kept the ball etc etc. But, there are dozens of Keane type players. Pluse he had a crap temperament that cost teams games.

I mean, Dennis Irwin to me ranks as good as Keane for his position. Solid, composed, lovely player, great free kick, plus he has that ice cold temperament. I think Dennis was Alex's best buy, and a player that Alex admired above everyone.

supersean1999

makl wrote: »

wasn't havin a go at you, just replying to the bold bit. you were very clear that you respect her but there's a reason she's not shown in other countries and its not cos of lack of talent.

no bother, crossed wires, its not her lack of talent its the number of others that are at her level, if we had 4-5 real world class footballers 2-3 world champ boxers, a few medalists from athletics etc etc, id imagine a female boxer would be less important to the press, as for world class athletes we have a host of the worlds best jockeys,

supersean1999

walshb wrote: »

Yes, and others would point to Vieira. And then there are the other leaguse too.

My point is that Keane was a very good player, but to me he did nothing amazing. He was a solid player, good tackler, kept the ball etc etc. But, there are dozens of Keane type players. Pluse he had a crap temperament that cost teams games.

I mean, Dennis Irwin to me ranks as good as Keane for his position. Solid, composed, lovely player, great free kick, plus he has that ice cold temperament. I think Dennis was Alex's best buy, and a player that Alex admired above everyone.

his will to win , drive, inspiration, are also big qualities u did not mention,

walshb

supersean1999 wrote: »

his will to win , drive, inspiration, are also big qualities u did not mention,

Will to win? Many players have that, but we seem to give it to Roy more because, what, he quits and moans? Irwin had every bit as much will and desire and heart as Keane. Thing is, Irwin had the temperament and composure in abundance.

The ususal excuses when Keane ****s up and gets sent off or leaves his team mates. "Oh, it's his desire and will to win, that's why he broke the guys leg and that's why he quite the team in Saipan."

He is no different to all the other winners and players out there. Scholes, Becks, Giggs, Irwin, Neville etc. All winners with a hell of a lot of desire and will.

Yourwellcum

walshb wrote: »

BTW, in the pure footballer sense Roy was nothing amazing. He was solid, composed, rarely gave the ball away, did the little things right, but he wasn't a great ball player in the skilled and grace and natural sense. Like a ZZ, Maradona, Pele, Messi etc. There are dozens and dozens of Roy Keane's.

Seriously, stick to a sport you know something about because you know very little about football if this is really your opinion

walshb

Yourwellcum wrote: »

Seriously, stick to a sport you know something about because you know very little about football if this is really your opinion

So, enlighten me, expert?

What was Keane? I said what I think he was, care to add?

supersean1999

walshb wrote: »

So, enlighten me, expert?

What was Keane? I said what I think he was, care to add?

a top world class central midfielder who played in one of the best league sides in english club history, an amazing organiser, brilliant in the tackle,a great leader every player has a will to win some HAVE MORE, an ability to make the game very simple, which few players have, but because of the world cup crap, most non man utd fans found a great excuse to dismiss him thats always obvious, anyway its clear your not a fan, back to boxing ,

walshb

supersean1999 wrote: »

a top world class central midfielder who played in one of the best league sides in english club history, an amazing organiser, brilliant in the tackle,a great leader every player has a will to win some HAVE MORE, an ability to make the game very simple, which few players have, but because of the world cup crap, most non man utd fans found a great excuse to dismiss him thats always obvious, anyway its clear your not a fan, back to boxing ,

No, I too think he was a very good player. I happen to think he wasn't the best, or close to the best. I would rate Keane the same as a Bryan Robson.
I don't think he was our greatest sports athlete. I would have several before him. I mentioned his strengths, all the same as you have said, tackles, holding the ball, passer etc. I do not think he was naturally very skilled. That to me is a ZZ, Maradona, Pele, Mesi, Bergkamp, Ronaldo (Brazil), Plaitini et al.

At his best Keane was one of the premierships best midfield players. But I wouldn't say it's definite at all that he was the best. Many as good as him.

supersean1999

i did not read all posts, but the title ,is katie taylor ireland best athlete, now zz or pele are def not cork or mayo names , id say keane is up there with mc coy, sonia had a great career, all sports are different, harrington has been great, talk again, in 15 yrs without a doubt mcilroy will top the list

Magill

Mens Football... Estimated to be played by over 200,000,000 people world wide.
60kg Womens Boxing... maybe 50,000 at most ?

Im sorry, but while Katie has done brilliantly, her achievements are nowhere near on the same level as Roy Keane or any elite footballer.

walshb

supersean1999 wrote: »

i did not read all posts, but the title ,is katie taylor ireland best athlete, now zz or pele are def not cork or mayo names , id say keane is up there with mc coy, sonia had a great career, all sports are different, harrington has been great, talk again, in 15 yrs without a doubt mcilroy will top the list

Rory may never ever again win a major. That is how odd the game is, that is not to say he won't be in and around the top ten for the next 15 years. Winning Majors in golF isn't the be all and end all. If he can win tournaments and stay CLOSE to the top, yes, I will consider him.

walshb

Magill wrote: »

Mens Football... Estimated to be played by over 200,000,000 people world wide.
60kg Womens Boxing... maybe 50,000 at most ?

Im sorry, but while Katie has done brilliantly, her achievements are nowhere near on the same level as Roy Keane or any elite footballer.

Crap!:)

Individual is KATIE; kEANE IS A TEAM PLAYER

supersean1999

walshb wrote: »

Rory may never ever again win a major. That is how odd the game is, that is not to say he won't be in and around the top ten for the next 15 years. Winning Majors in golF isn't the be all and end all. If he can win tournaments and stay CLOSE to the top, yes, I will consider him.

he is world no 1 already, and imo only getting better and wont be at his peak for awhile, if he stays healthy and fit i can see him winning a major every other year for 15-18 yrs, and as for katie the more i think about it , i agree with other poster, not enough competition, im out talk again

Magill

walshb wrote: »

Crap!:)

Individual is KATIE; kEANE IS A TEAM PLAYER

So team sports don't count then ? Guess that makes things a little more interesting, wouldn't have the likes of Keane, Giles, best (People are talking about Rory Mac, so George Best deserves a mention too then !) or the likes of Brain O'Driscoll, whos achievements I also rate higher than that of an amateur woman boxer(A hugely male dominated sport).

If its individual only then it has to be Padraig Harrington(At least of those still alive today !)... and Katie isn't even remotely close to him.

Even in her own sport she isn't nearly the best of all time.

Jimmy McLarnin - 2 time world champion (Professional) and hall of famer.
Steve Collins - WBO champion in 2 weight division, handing Chris Eubank his first 2 losses in the process of a great 36-3 professional career with nearly 20 Amateur titles to his name aswel.


There are others but yeah.... you get the idea.. shes nowhere near the best Irish athlete of all time and probably not even the best current athlete.

Dan_Solo

Magill wrote: »

So team sports don't count then ? Guess that makes things a little more interesting

Yeah, 'cos now Jordan, Pele, Gretzky and Marino were all crap athletes then.

supersean1999

Magill wrote: »

So team sports don't count then ? Guess that makes things a little more interesting, wouldn't have the likes of Keane, Giles, best (People are talking about Rory Mac, so George Best deserves a mention too then !) or the likes of Brain O'Driscoll, whos achievements I also rate higher than that of an amateur woman boxer(A hugely male dominated sport).

If its individual only then it has to be Padraig Harrington(At least of those still alive today !)... and Katie isn't even remotely close to him.

Even in her own sport she isn't nearly the best of all time.

Jimmy McLarnin - 2 time world champion (Professional) and hall of famer.
Steve Collins - WBO champion in 2 weight division, handing Chris Eubank his first 2 losses in the process of a great 36-3 professional career with nearly 20 Amateur titles to his name aswel.


There are others but yeah.... you get the idea.. shes nowhere near the best Irish athlete of all time and probably not even the best current athlete.

mc coy is

themandan6611

taylor - no.

for achievements, Roche in 87 performed quiet well, some might say Sean Kelly was very much one of our best athletes in one hell of a gruelling sport.

Pisco Sour

IMO it was Sonia. In the fiercely competitive and globalised sport of female distance running she achieved the following:

- Olympic Silver medal (also 4th in 1992 when beaten by Russian drug cheat)
- World gold medal
- World silver medal (robbed of 2 golds by those pesky Chinese dopers)
- 3 European Golds
- 2 European Silvers
- 2 World Cross-Country golds
- 1 World Indoor silver
- European record for 3000m from 1994-2002 (would have been WR but for Chinese dopers)
- World record 2000m (which still stands)
- Something like 4th or 5th all time on women’s mile
- Achieved success at 1500m, 3000m, 5000m, 10000m and Half Marathon, and on the Track, Road, Indoor and Cross Country
- Won virtually every race she ran in 1993, 1994 and 1995. Her level of dominance in this time was frightening
- She could close a 5000m race with a 60 second last lap, and a 28 second last 200m
- European athlete of the Year in 1995 (maybe it was 1994)
- Track and Field News World athlete of the Year in same year
- Was ranked by T&F News as World Number 1 in the 1500m, 3000m, 5000m and 10000m at various points during her career.
- Twice winner of Great North Run
- In 1993 she finished 2nd in the overall Grand Prix standings for women (all events, not just her own), and the following year finished 3rd.
- Irish record holder from every distance from 800 (2 lap sprint) to Half Marathon (13.1 mile slog).
- Was performing at a world class level from 1992 to 2003
- World Student Games Gold and Silver in 1991
- Countless NCAA titles when at Villanova

Winning medals at major championships in athletics is tough. Very tough. You’ve got Jamaicans, African Americans, Ethiopians, Kenyans, drugged up Russians. We have a lot of very good athletes write now. Some excellent ones (contrary to what the mainstream media might say). Making the top 8 at an Olympics or Worlds is a fantastic achievement. Joanne Cuddihy is world class and she’ll be knocking on the door of an Olympic 400m final in London fingers crossed. Deirdre Ryan was 6th at the Worlds last year. Derval has been 4th at the Worlds and has won Indoor and European medals. These people are top class in a competitive sport and they are yet nowhere even remotely close to what Sonia achieved. What she managed during her career we may never see again. She won medals at major championships for fun, AND ran world leading times over a range of distances. She has run 3:58 for 1500m, and has run 67:19 for Half Marathon. Anybody with a bit of knowledge of athletics will know how impressive those times, in 2 completely different events, are.

I could go on and on but you get the point.

IMO Katie is not near this level of sporting excellence. On has to take a look at the quality of opposition and profile of the sport also when analysing these things.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Hopefully Katie does well for herself but the media and public shouldn't heap too much pressure on the girl. The backlash won't be so nice for her if she bombs in the Olympics.

Spazdarn

Katie has time, I don't think just because she's excelled at a minority sport that the thought of her being out best athlete should be completely dispelled but she's got plenty of time to add to her legacy... at the moment she just hasn't done enough for me.

Looking at Sonia's CV above proves she was one of the world best performers and over a very long duration.

Regarding the team sports vs. individual sports there are pros and cons for both sides, so if you're going to judge, probably do so separately. I would argue Keane has come across far more world class competitors in his field than Katie would have in hers, thus is the nature of Champions League football. There being significantly more professionals for Keane to have bettered to get to where he got stands out for me too.