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Is Katie Taylor Ireland best athlete

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    #152
    Magill
    Registered Users Posts: 5,732 ✭✭✭Magill


    walshb wrote: »
    Fair enough, but I feel the fact that the sport is far more difficult and complex and tough than many other sports, that the participant level will be naturally smaller, hence one can make a strong case for Katie.

    So, you saying "we'll never know" is moot IMO because of the nature and toughness of the sport of boxing. It will never have the same particpation as golf, running and soccer, at a certain level of proficiency.

    But nail on the head from you earlier, a good chin wag hurt nobody!

    FOR STARTERS, SHE IS NOT THE ONLY TOP LEVEL BOXER THIS COUNTRY HAS PRODUCED... WHY DO YOU KEEP SKIPPING OVER PEOPLE LIKE JIMMY MCLARNIN ?

    caps, so you actually don't ignore this... again. If you want to compare sports people, at least keep it to the same sport.


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    #153
    Yourwellcum
    Registered Users Posts: 200 ✭✭Yourwellcum


    walshb wrote: »
    It sure is, but don't you love a debate?

    Oh of course. Sure isnt that what boards is all about


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    #154
    johnners2981
    Closed Accounts Posts: 429 ✭✭johnners2981


    cowzerp wrote: »
    With footballers it's much more selective-Keane who was used here had a good engine and done the basics right-he had little skill and many talk about him as 1 of the best at the time, in boxing it's 1 on 1 so teammates don't make a difference to results, Keane could have an off day and still win, a boxer has off day and it's game over.

    You obviously know very little about football, he is not near messi's technique level but to be a footballer at the highest level you have to be very skillful


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    #155
    Pisco Sour
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,029 ✭✭✭Pisco Sour


    walshb wrote: »
    I agree, it is likely, but in the case of say golf and boxing, or running and boxing, I would argue that a top boxer is a better athlete anyway. Golfers aren't athletes.

    How on earth is a boxer a better athlete than a runner? A runner competes in ATHLETICS, a sport of the finest ATHLETES on earth. A runner or sprinter is an athlete. A boxer is a boxer. By all means suggest that a boxer may be a better SPORTSPERSON than a runner if you believe that to be so, but they are not better athletes. The thread title should be changed from "athlete" to "sportsperson". When most people think athlete they think athletics.


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    #156
    Pisco Sour
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,029 ✭✭✭Pisco Sour


    cowzerp wrote: »
    A proper Boxer could easily do the marathon without ever training for it, a marathon runner would be bollixed after a real round of boxing, and stopped badly if in with a good boxer. You my friend are clueless

    Double-facepalm.jpg


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    #157
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,162 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    04072511 wrote: »
    How on earth is a boxer a better athlete than a runner? A runner competes in ATHLETICS, a sport of the finest ATHLETES on earth. A runner or sprinter is an athlete. A boxer is a boxer. By all means suggest that a boxer may be a better SPORTSPERSON than a runner if you believe that to be so, but they are not better athletes. The thread title should be changed from "athlete" to "sportsperson". When most people think athlete they think athletics.

    Well, if an athlete is only reserved for a track and field competitor, ok, I will use sports person. I think the term athlete can be used for more than just T&F competitors.

    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/athlete


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    #158
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,162 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Magill wrote: »
    FOR STARTERS, SHE IS NOT THE ONLY TOP LEVEL BOXER THIS COUNTRY HAS PRODUCED... WHY DO YOU KEEP SKIPPING OVER PEOPLE LIKE JIMMY MCLARNIN ?

    caps, so you actually don't ignore this... again. If you want to compare sports people, at least keep it to the same sport.

    Jimmy was great. Who's skipping over him? In case you haven't read my posts I clearly said that I have no issue with other worthy candidates. Jimmy? Yes, very worthy. No need for the caps, just read what I wrote.


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    #159
    Pa Dee
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 279 ✭✭Pa Dee


    walshb wrote: »
    04072511 wrote: »
    I suggest you do some reading on Sonia's 1993, 1994 and 1995 seasons. The level of dominance she achieved was staggering, in probably the most fiercely competitive of all Olympic sports. Her 8:21 over 3000m has only since been beaten by Szabo (just about) and nobody else in the last 18 years. Only the drugged up Chinese have ever run faster than that before 1993. She holds every single Irish record from 800m up to Half Marathon. Her range of PB's are quite remarkeable. Her championship performances were even better, competing against drugged up Eastern Europeans, and genetically and altitude enhanced East Africans. She was a freak of nature, and we'll never see her like again.

    And of course lets not forget 1998 with the World Cross Country double, and European double.

    I rank Sonia the second best female athlete ever in Ireland. Also, I rate the sport of boxing as far more versatile and fluid and it requires so much more from the body in terms of mechanics. Running is running. We all can do it, some just for longer and faster than others.
    Yeah 2nd. Apt as that's o'sullivan all over .... Never the winner always the fastest loser at best in the Olympics


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    #160
    Pisco Sour
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,029 ✭✭✭Pisco Sour


    Pa Dee wrote: »
    Yeah 2nd. Apt as that's o'sullivan all over .... Never the winner always the fastest loser at best in the Olympics

    God you're clueless. There's more to the sport than the Olympics. She's a 3 time world champion (Track and Cross Country). It would be 5 times if the Chinese in 1993 were playing by the rules.

    She's a 3 time European Champion also.

    She was a world student games champion.

    She was 5 times IAAF Grand Prix Champion.

    She was world cup champion in 1998.

    She was NCAA Champion on about 5 occasions (Indoor, Outdoor and Cross Country).

    She held the European 3000m record from 1994-2002 and no African has ever run faster than her 8:21.64. She still holds the 2000m World Record, 18 years after setting it. The fine Ethiopian runner Gelete Burka attempted to break it a couple of years ago and didn't get within 5 seconds of her 5:25.

    And that Olympic Silver medal is one of the great moments in Irish sport. The pressure on her was huge after Atlanta. She was dead and buried at one point in that race. It looked all over. Think of the media backlash had she tailed off the back again. She somehow got herself back into contention and the rest is history. A medal on the track in the Olympics is a more difficult thing to achieve than a medal in amateur boxing (the best boxers in the world aren't even there, they are off earning Don King millions!).


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    #161
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,162 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Don't forget that Szabo was very very suspect. That was Sonia's gold for me.


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    #162
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,162 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    04072511 wrote: »
    A medal on the track in the Olympics is a more difficult thing to achieve than a medal in amateur boxing (the best boxers in the world aren't even there, they are off earning Don King millions!).

    They're professional, you know? A medal in boxing is every bit as difficult to get in as any other sport. The gold medalist and silver medalist in boxing meet and beat the best on earth. How is it more difficult in athletics?


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    #163
    Magill
    Registered Users Posts: 5,732 ✭✭✭Magill


    walshb wrote: »
    They're professional, you know? A medal in boxing is every bit as difficult to get in as any other sport. The gold medalist and silver medalist in boxing meet and beat the best on earth. How is it more difficult in athletics?

    :eek: Because the best boxers in the world aren't there ? (At least in the mens boxing. Is there even world titles at professional level in woman's boxing ?)

    Whereas the best in athletic's are ?


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    #164
    Pisco Sour
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,029 ✭✭✭Pisco Sour


    walshb wrote: »
    They're professional, you know? A medal in boxing is every bit as difficult to get in as any other sport. The gold medalist and silver medalist in boxing meet and beat the best on earth. How is it more difficult in athletics?

    Because athletics is open to all, amateur or professional. Boxing is closed off to many people who compete in the sport. The gold medallist in athletics can say he/she is the best in the world. The Olympic gold medallist in boxing cannot say the same thing.


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    #165
    Pa Dee
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 279 ✭✭Pa Dee


    04072511 wrote: »
    Pa Dee wrote: »
    Yeah 2nd. Apt as that's o'sullivan all over .... Never the winner always the fastest loser at best in the Olympics

    God you're clueless. There's more to the sport than the Olympics. She's a 3 time world champion (Track and Cross Country). It would be 5 times if the Chinese in 1993 were playing by the rules.

    She's a 3 time European Champion also.

    She was a world student games champion.

    She was 5 times IAAF Grand Prix Champion.

    She was world cup champion in 1998.

    She was NCAA Champion on about 5 occasions (Indoor, Outdoor and Cross Country).

    She held the European 3000m record from 1994-2002 and no African has ever run faster than her 8:21.64. She still holds the 2000m World Record, 18 years after setting it. The fine Ethiopian runner Gelete Burka attempted to break it a couple of years ago and didn't get within 5 seconds of her 5:25.

    And that Olympic Silver medal is one of the great moments in Irish sport. The pressure on her was huge after Atlanta. She was dead and buried at one point in that race. It looked all over. Think of the media backlash had she tailed off the back again. She somehow got herself back into contention and the rest is history. A medal on the track in the Olympics is a more difficult thing to achieve than a medal in amateur boxing (the best boxers in the world aren't even there, they are off earning Don King millions!).
    The Olympics is the pinnacle - she has failed numerous times. Often embassingly....throwing the tricolour, pooping herself in Atlanta, trying to run for Australia....


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    #166
    Pisco Sour
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,029 ✭✭✭Pisco Sour


    walshb wrote: »
    Don't forget that Szabo was very very suspect. That was Sonia's gold for me.

    To be fair to Szabo, she was cleared of any wrong doing by the IAAF.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/athletics/3047351.stm

    The media is never too bothered reporting thing like this though.


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    #167
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,162 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    04072511 wrote: »
    Because athletics is open to all, amateur or professional. Boxing is closed off to many people who compete in the sport. The gold medallist in athletics can say he/she is the best in the world. The Olympic gold medallist in boxing cannot say the same thing.

    Pro boxing is not the same. They are different sports. If you want to get specific, with your view that boxers aren't athletes etc, let's get specific. Pro boxing is not the same sport as Am boxing. So, to win a medal in the sport of Am boxing is every bit as tough as to win a medal in any olympic sport. Thousands all over the world try to get to the olympics in Am boxing, just like thousands try to get to the olympics for the 100 metres. I am being specific in selecting ONE discipline in T&F. You can't have it all your way. T&F is a multitude of many disciplines, but not the same amount of people in each one.


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    #168
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,162 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    04072511 wrote: »
    To be fair to Szabo, she was cleared of any wrong doing by the IAAF.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/athletics/3047351.stm

    The media is never too bothered reporting thing like this though.

    Yes I know, but did any of the Chinese girls who won medals in Sonia's race in Atlanta get convicted of doping?


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    #169
    Magill
    Registered Users Posts: 5,732 ✭✭✭Magill


    Fact remains that there are BOXERS that are in fact better, and in some cases, much better at boxing than those at the Olympics. Most boxers at the Olympics are only just starting out in their career, very few have reached their prime. And if they are then they're either not very good or they are the exception to the rule, as the best amateur boxers usually turn professional when they are still young. You don't typically have returning Olympic champions for example.. whereas you do in athletics. Athletes with 10 or more years experience at the highest level in their sport.


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    #170
    Pisco Sour
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,029 ✭✭✭Pisco Sour


    Pa Dee wrote: »
    The Olympics is the pinnacle - she has failed numerous times. Often embassingly....throwing the tricolour, pooping herself in Atlanta, trying to run for Australia....

    Should I really take the bait. Ah what the hell...

    1992 Olympics - aged 22. 4th place in 3000m. Beaten by 2 Russians, the silver medallist done for drugs the next year, the gold medallist dying of a heart problem 10-15 years later. Hmmmm. I wouldn't call that a bottling at all.

    1996 Olympics - aged 26. She got sick. Happens to us all. Sadly for her it happened at the worst time possible. She probably pushed her body too hard, striving for perfection. Maybe had she eased back and played it safe she probably still would have won, as she was that much better than the rest. But we'll never know.

    2000 Olympics - aged 30. Silver medal new National record in 5000m, beating the best Africa could produce, and closed the race with a 60 second last lap, going toe to toe with the dominant woman of 1997-2000, Gabriella Szabo of Romania. Backed this up a 6th place and another National Record a few days later in the 10000m, in the finest ever 10k race ever seen at that time.

    2004 Olympics - aged 34. Was well past her peak at this stage, but still managed to make the 5000m final. Sadly got sick the day before the final which meant she was never going to do much on this occasion.

    Her Olympic career is better than probably anybody barring Patrick O'Callaghan, and Ronnie Delaney. You can't compare Michael Carruth's gold to Sonia's silver, for the reasons mentioned in an above post.


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    #171
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,162 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Magill wrote: »
    Fact remains that there are BOXERS that are in fact better, and in some cases, much better at boxing than those at the Olympics. Most boxers at the Olympics are only just starting out, very few are in their prime. And if they are then they're either not very good or they are the exception to the rule, as the best amateur boxers usually turn professional when they are still young.

    Who exacty are these great boxers who turn pro before the games?

    Sure, one could name a few, but one could name a few that weren't good enough to get to the games, hence they weren't waiting another 4 years.

    Like I said, they are two different sports. Thousands of young men compete in Am boxing to even try to qualify for the games.


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    #172
    Pisco Sour
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,029 ✭✭✭Pisco Sour


    walshb wrote: »
    Yes I know, but did any of the Chinese girls who won medals in Sonia's race in Atlanta get convicted of doping?

    I assume you mean Stuttgart 1993 Worlds, not Atlanta.

    Sometimes logic needs to come into play. Who knows if Szabo doped or not, but the fact is that she was a talented junior, won European Bronze behind Sonia in 1994 aged just 18. She had a lot of longevity in the sport, competed regularly in the Golden League. On Sonia's day she knew she could beat her, and visa versa.

    The Chinese on the otherhand, appeared from nowhere, aged around 20-21, ran ridiculous World record times (8.06 for 3000m, 3:50 for 1500m WTF) won sh1tloads of medals in Stuttgart, then were never ever seen again. Disappeared off the radar.


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    #173
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,162 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    04072511 wrote: »
    on this occasion.

    Her Olympic career is better than probably anybody barring Patrick O'Callaghan, and Ronnie Delaney. You can't compare Michael Carruth's gold to Sonia's silver, for the reasons mentioned in an above post.

    That is just crap, and that is from someone who thinks Sonia is overall better than Carruth. To dismiss his gold as not being as good as her silver is crap. He went to the games and beat the best men on earth, in a sport that has been at the games from 1896 I think, maybe 1904? A ridiculously competitve field he was in, at a weight that is renowned as the toughest weight, WW.

    Your bias for T&F is way OTT. At least I am being diplomatic. I am not saying boxing is tougher to medal in.


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    #174
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,162 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    04072511 wrote: »
    I assume you mean Stuttgart 1993 Worlds, not Atlanta.

    Sometimes logic needs to come into play. Who knows if Szabo doped or not, but the fact is that she was a talented junior, won European Bronze behind Sonia in 1994 aged just 18. She had a lot of longevity in the sport, competed regularly in the Golden League. On Sonia's day she knew she could beat her, and visa versa.

    The Chinese on the otherhand, appeared from nowhere, aged around 20-21, ran ridiculous World record times (8.06 for 3000m, 3:50 for 1500m WTF) won sh1tloads of medals in Stuttgart, then were never ever seen again. Disappeared off the radar.

    5k and 10 k in Atlanta? Gold and silver I think, Ribero I recall got a gold in 10K?


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    #175
    Magill
    Registered Users Posts: 5,732 ✭✭✭Magill


    walshb wrote: »
    Who exacty are these great boxers who turn pro before the games?

    Sure, one could name a few, but one could name a few that weren't good enough to get to the games, hence they weren't waiting another 4 years.

    Like I said, they are two different sports. Thousands of young men compete in Am boxing to even try to qualify for the games.

    huh ? I didn't say anything about boxers turning pro before the games ?

    Many boxers turn pro after the games however and obviously never return to defend their title... boxers like Muhammad Ali attended only one Olympic's and never returned to defend his gold. Are you trying to say it wouldn't have been more difficult Cosimo Pinto to win his gold medal in 1964 if Ali was there ?

    Like i said, in athletics, Usian Bolt is returning to race again this year, he is more experienced, faster and all round a better athlete than he was 4 years ago. The same can't be said for nearly all the gold medal winners from the previous Olympics in boxing.


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    #176
    Pisco Sour
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,029 ✭✭✭Pisco Sour


    walshb wrote: »
    That is just crap, and that is from someone who thinks Sonia is overall better than Carruth. To dismiss his gold as not being as good as her silver is crap. He went to the games and beat the best men on earth, in a sport that has been at the games from 1896 I think, maybe 1904? A ridiculously competitve field he was in, at a weight that is renowned as the toughest weight, WW.

    Your bias for T&F is way OTT. At least I am being diplomatic. I am not saying boxing is tougher to medal in.

    Was Michael Carruth the best Welterweight (have I got the weight right?) boxer in the World in 1992, being perfectly honest? If the Olympics were open to every boxer at his weight, Amateur or professional, would he still have won? Would he even have ranked in the top 10? Genuine question.

    Sonia was undisputedly the 2nd in the world in 2000. There are no ifs, buts or maybes about it. In boxing Michael Carruth can't say this IMO.


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    #177
    Pisco Sour
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,029 ✭✭✭Pisco Sour


    walshb wrote: »
    5k and 10 k in Atlanta? Gold and silver I think, Ribero I recall got a gold in 10K?

    Yeh that was Wang Junxia, world record holder in 3000m and 10000m which she set during that ridiculous 1993 season. She was the only one of Ma Juran's crew to be seen again, simply because she left him and switched to a different coach. She won the gold and silver in Atlanta, but wasn't running anything close to those sort of times that she did back in 1993. She may even have been clean in Atlanta, though I doubt it. I was glad Ribeiro prevented her doing the double.


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    #178
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,162 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Magill wrote: »
    Many boxers turn pro after the games however and obviously never return to defend their title... boxers like Muhammad Ali attended only one Olympic's and never returned to defend his gold. Are you trying to say it wouldn't have been more difficult Cosimo Pinto to win his gold medal in 1964 if Ali was there ?
    .

    That is pointless. You compete in the games and you win a gold and you are talkng about "what about 4 years time when the gold medalist is now pro?"

    The best men on earth compete in a games in one year, and one man wins at each weight. How is that not as difiicult as any other gold medal winner at that same games?

    Ok, example, 200 m Joe Deloach 1988. How was that gold medal more difficult to come by as it was for Lennox Lewis at SHW in the same games?


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    #179
    Magill
    Registered Users Posts: 5,732 ✭✭✭Magill


    walshb wrote: »
    That is pointless. You compete in the games and you win a gold and you are talkng about "what about 4 years time when the gold medalist is now pro?"

    The best men on earth compete in a games in one year, and one man wins at each weight. How is that not as difiicult as any other gold medal winner at that same games?

    Ok, example, 200 m Joe Deloach 1988. How was that gold medal more difficult to come by as it was for Lennox Lewis at SHW in the same games?

    I really don't know if your trolling me, or just a bit thick.... read my post.. if that doesn't explain why, then honestly...


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    #180
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,162 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Magill wrote: »
    I really don't know if your trolling me, or just a bit thick.... read my post.. if that doesn't explain why, then honestly...

    Your post is pointless and explains and proves nothing. Moving goalposts doesn't count as proving anthing. I think you are trolling yourself

    An olympian boxer who turns pro is no longer an amateur boxer. Two different sports. He is no longer involved in amanteur boxing. Akin to an olympian retiring from athletics. Erased from existence.


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    #181
    Pisco Sour
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,029 ✭✭✭Pisco Sour


    walshb wrote: »
    That is pointless. You compete in the games and you win a gold and you are talkng about "what about 4 years time when the gold medalist is now pro?"

    The best men on earth compete in a games in one year, and one man wins at each weight. How is that not as difiicult as any other gold medal winner at that same games?

    Ok, example, 200 m Joe Deloach 1988. How was that gold medal more difficult to come by as it was for Lennox Lewis at SHW in the same games?

    If Ali, Marvin Hagler, Roberto Duran etc competed in the Olympics during their PRIME, they would have won gold medals. The people who actually won Olympic gold during this time would have been bit part players to Duran/Hagler/Ali's gold medal performances. To think otherwise is lunacy.

    In athletics, the best of the best compete in the Olympics (except during the boycotted Games), so we all know that the winner really is the best at his/her discipline in the world. In boxing this is not the case.


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