South County GC Closed

fennetec

stinkypoo wrote: »

You say that you have no connection with the board yet you can quote a strategy that states South county were hoping some other club would go under before them and that they could mop up members. How do you know this? Why wasnt that shared with the members and get everyone to pull together.?
if that was the main strategy being adopted by the board it says a lot about the brains that were running the show. I just hope you were speculating.
another question. 60 members left in January. Why. was it too dear. Did they come in on a 2011 deal and when asked for increased subs they left. What happens next ,they offer better discounts for 2012 and the cycle starts again. Doomed to failure.
With regard to the shareholders, many saw that it wasnt value for money or they couldnt afford it and left before the deck of cards came down.
You talk about pulling together. Never happenened in South County since day one. No one was told what was going on and there has never been anyone in South County who has been able to have everyone singing from the same hymn sheet.
The people to feel sorry for are the workers, raymie and those who paid up front this year
Where you one of them????
Good luck to those loyal South County members who have found new clubs but I hope I dont run into you.

South County Golf Club was one of the top 100 clubs recognized by Failte Ireland up to last Monday, there is no reason why it won't still be one of the top 100 clubs next Monday. I was one of those who paid up front and got two friends to join and do the same but I am not going to prostitute myself out to another club even if they offer free membership to year end. Like I say, if it was a good club yesterday it can be a good club tomorrow, we must support Raymie and the staff and get back on track.

Russman

fennetec wrote: »

I am not going to prostitute myself out to another club even if they offer free membership to year end. Like I say, if it was a good club yesterday it can be a good club tomorrow, we must support Raymie and the staff and get back on track.

Admirable sentiment, but I'd imagine a lot of people will be thinking "once bitten twice shy"

emac123

fennetec wrote: »

South County Golf Club was one of the top 100 clubs recognized by Failte Ireland up to last Monday, there is no reason why it won't still be one of the top 100 clubs next Monday. I was one of those who paid up front and got two friends to join and do the same but I am not going to prostitute myself out to another club even if they offer free membership to year end. Like I say, if it was a good club yesterday it can be a good club tomorrow, we must support Raymie and the staff and get back on track.

here here, my sentitment exactly, it may take a while but the fact is that it is the best golf course in the area and if set up again and ran properly it will thrive again.

Whyner

fennetec wrote: »

South County Golf Club was one of the top 100 clubs recognized by Failte Ireland up to last Monday, there is no reason why it won't still be one of the top 100 clubs next Monday. I was one of those who paid up front and got two friends to join and do the same but I am not going to prostitute myself out to another club even if they offer free membership to year end. Like I say, if it was a good club yesterday it can be a good club tomorrow, we must support Raymie and the staff and get back on track.

Cool, can you share your plan if you have one? Loads of members on here

Redzah

fennetec wrote: »

8pm in the main function room. Bring your wallet !!

Unless the members plan on purchasing the asset i.e. the land then be very careful and throwing more money away.

Try and negotiate a deal with the land owners that includes the lease payments already made on the land by the previous management. I'm not sure how easy or difficult this may be but def worth trying. Have a reputable corporate financier discount the future value of remaining lease payments and then add a further discount to this price as the land has no other use to the owners as realistically running it for €10 per round has no chance of being successful for them. Then you have some sort of a reasonable valuation.

My advice as a group of members is to get it professionally valued and once you apply a discount to this valuation make an offer to the land owners to purchase the land. Have a detailed business plan and future projects that adopt a cautious approach on figures completed by a reputable firm before you make this offer to ensure that it is commercially viable. Think with you head on this one and don't let any affection towards the club cloud your vision.

Best of luck with it, with a membership base of 600 or so the place has a chance if expenditure is closely monitored. You may have to sacrifice a few greens keepers and an element of course quality but you will keep the membership and comradery without the needless spending of previous management. If you are serious about this you need to include a significant cash reserve to fund the club properly (which will essentially be another subscription/levy/joining fee for 2012) when computing how much each member would have to pay. Ensure that this is by way of equity i.e. 1 share to each member and not by way a loan which will stop the previous carry on of offsetting this balance against future subs. You'll never know if it works out you may get your money back in the future as you will own a portion of the asset which will be sold at a fire sale price.

GOOD LUCK!!!

vikingdub

Redzah wrote: »

Thats fair enough as the board were in a difficult position on this one, they couldn't afford to lose them as they needed their subs to survive. Another club in a better financial position would've cancelled their membership but South County did not appear have this luxury. Also, completely understandable from the members point of view who didn't want to throw more into a sinking ship. Its just a shame for all involved really.

A better way to handle the matter would been to engage with these shareholders who are currently in financial difficulties.

Redzah

Whyner wrote: »

Cool, can you share your plan if you have one? Loads of members on here

Can non members attend this? I see potential value in this if there is a detailed business plan and if there is acceptance that cash reserves need to be kept at an acceptable level and maintenance and other costs are reduced which will effect the course but will result in a playable golf course.

stinkypoo

I agree with your sentiments regarding the course. There are a lot of people hurting out there who love the course but need a lot of persuading to get back involved again. They have lost trust in what happened and would not go near the place if certain people had anything to do with any new club that formed.

Whyner

Redzah wrote: »

Can non members attend this? I see potential value in this if there is a detailed business plan and if there is acceptance that cash reserves need to be kept at an acceptable level and maintenance and other costs are reduced which will effect the course but will result in a playable golf course.

600+ members sounds like enough opinions, you'll be updated Tues morn so keep the abacus out

Hope this doesn't get settled Lucan style

vikingdub

Whyner wrote: »

600+ members sounds like enough opinions, you'll be updated Tues morn so keep the abacus out

Hope this doesn't get settled Lucan style

The shareholder members who have just been shafted are the same people who pulled together a few years ago to rescue the club. These are the same people who made a loan of over €3k to the club, that together with the cost of their shares appear to be gone forever. I think you will find that few, if any would be willing, if they are able, to risk any more of their hard earned money in the club.

Once bitten, etc.

Redzah

Whyner wrote: »

600+ members sounds like enough opinions, you'll be updated Tues morn so keep the abacus out

Hope this doesn't get settled Lucan style

thanks whyner, realistically 100-200 at this meeting would be an excellent start. I'll have the egg timer counting down the hours till tues morning. I hope for your sake that whoever is running this meeting uses the weekend to formulate a detailed draft business plan that is realistic and has separated their emotions from the figures.

I'll be very interested to hear what happens at this meeting. My advice would be to employ a professional corporate financier to run the rule over the proposed strategy as he/she will think with their head rather than with the emotions that all the members are feeling.

fennetec

My opinion may be clouded by the fact that not alone did I pay up front but only two weeks ago got a friend to do the same. Then we were asked did we want to subscribe another €1,000 each to lock in our membership at the same price for a further year - this all two weeks ago ! As for the meeting, I told Pat the land owner that I was calling a meeting for 8pm on Monday night and he is in favour of that and will be attending. As far as I am concerned everyone is welcome including potential new members, but, having said that I wont be down in Avon Ri too early putting out red carpet for the likes of those who were involved in what was a dreadful way of letting the members know what was about to happen, much less removing the equipment and shutting down the computer system. Another issue I have is that it was boasted that 600 people subscribed to the monthly €20 draw for a years free membership. Let us be conservative and say 500 x 20 x 12 = €120,000 - gone because those that won membership will never get it. Same applies to the incentive to top up your bar card by giving €20 when you pay €100. Two weeks ago I topped up €200, so was this incentive to get money into a kitty for the directors round table meeting before I received my text at 6.20am?

fennetec

Redzah wrote: »

thanks whyner, realistically 100-200 at this meeting would be an excellent start. I'll have the egg timer counting down the hours till tues morning. I hope for your sake that whoever is running this meeting uses the weekend to formulate a detailed draft business plan that is realistic and has separated their emotions from the figures.

I'll be very interested to hear what happens at this meeting. My advice would be to employ a professional corporate financier to run the rule over the proposed strategy as he/she will think with their head rather than with the emotions that all the members are feeling.

I will not be formulating any business plan or employing a professional corporate financiar. My immediate interest is to get all the members together to form a business plan together before they are poached by other clubs. Currently the land owner is meeting members on a one to one basis at the club and while he seems to have the interest of retaining the club under a new structure I do not buy into one to one meetings and he needs to addess us as a group with a solid proposal that is not going to be going around in circles. It will not be my decision simply because I am only a wet day in the club but I have two issues to address;
1. What we are going to do to keep our members together and get the best possible deal for everyone.
2. I don't care what other opinions are on the method of winding up the club but from what I have downloaded from www.cro.ie I am satasfied that certain members who I have witnessed acting their heads in the air in my short time at South County have traded recklessly and have certain personal responsibility for doing so.

thegen

Is the removal of all the machinery from the sheds theft? If so why have the people involved not been reported to the guards?

Redzah

fennetec wrote: »

My opinion may be clouded by the fact that not alone did I pay up front but only two weeks ago got a friend to do the same. Then we were asked did we want to subscribe another €1,000 each to lock in our membership at the same price for a further year - this all two weeks ago ! As for the meeting, I told Pat the land owner that I was calling a meeting for 8pm on Monday night and he is in favour of that and will be attending. As far as I am concerned everyone is welcome including potential new members, but, having said that I wont be down in Avon Ri too early putting out red carpet for the likes of those who were involved in what was a dreadful way of letting the members know what was about to happen, much less removing the equipment and shutting down the computer system. Another issue I have is that it was boasted that 600 people subscribed to the monthly €20 draw for a years free membership. Let us be conservative and say 500 x 20 x 12 = €120,000 - gone because those that won membership will never get it. Same applies to the incentive to top up your bar card by giving €20 when you pay €100. Two weeks ago I topped up €200, so was this incentive to get money into a kitty for the directors round table meeting before I received my text at 6.20am?

Fennetec, as the person calling the meeting, you will be looked at for direction, if it is just a moan and brainstorm of 100 people then it will be chaos. You should probably sit down with the land owner and ascertain his stance on a potential sale of the land to a newly formed members company and ascertain what he values it at. Then you and other members can ascertain your own value. You should prepare an agenda of potential strategies to be handed out to all members at the meeting and discuss the merit of each in a structured fashion at this meeting. You should have somebody minute this meeting to ensure no viable points are lost and then assess the options afterwards based on points raised.

Otherwise, this meeting will be a moaney chaos with little value, if your serious about this then somebody needs to lead the way. Everything that happened regarding a 6am text, bar credit lost, monthly draw and subs lost etc. counts for nothing now and every member will have their own gripe. Unless this meeting is to discuss future options then its a big bitchfest that provides no benefit.

eagleleyes

Golfingfanatic wrote: »

In my opinion, the board, Ronan, Graham(who said we didn't need a pro!), Tom and John LordLucan have acted disgracefully and out of spite. One one of them has a huge reputation for being a bully (members will know whom I'm talking about). The board removed itself from the members and set themselves apart. They treated the members as a lower caste.

The conspiracy theorists reckon that an underhand deal had been done wth the Kavanaghs to rise from the ashes with the board as co-owners of a new and viable entity which would be free of all the liabilities. This does not appear to be the case, unless Pat Kavanagh is an oscar winning actor!

These people acted in a manner last Tuesday that proves they had no interest in the wellbeing of the club or its' members. They had the machinery and plant removed, thuis ensuring that the greens could not be maintained, thus ensuring that the greens would be ruined in a matter of days. They also turned off the administration system on the website, thus ensuring that Pat Kavanagh or the SCGC Committee would be unable to access the members database and organise any kind of rescue operation. Having given Raymie no notice of his dismissal, Ronan then had the gall to ring him yesterday in an abusive and threatening manner, because he believed it was through the pro shop computer that the email from the lanlords was sent to the members.

These are not the actions of good people. I believe one of them is amongst a group seeking a membership deal elsewhere. Guys, have nothing to do with him!!!!!!!


By the way, unfortunately Raymie, has cleared out his shop and is now officially gone. He will be sadly missed.

The board members should be blacklisted from every golf club in the country.

Very well said Golfingfanatic and certainly the view of the few members I have been speaking to over the past few days. I wondered who would be the first one to bring up the whole Bully Boy tactics that seem to have been the MO of that Board for the past while. Now GOMBEENO, put that in your pipe and smoke it! Unless of course you are that Bully!

fennetec

Redzah wrote: »

Fennetec, as the person calling the meeting, you will be looked at for direction, if it is just a moan and brainstorm of 100 people then it will be chaos. You should probably sit down with the land owner and ascertain his stance on a potential sale of the land to a newly formed members company and ascertain what he values it at. Then you and other members can ascertain your own value. You should prepare an agenda of potential strategies to be handed out to all members at the meeting and discuss the merit of each in a structured fashion at this meeting. You should have somebody minute this meeting to ensure no viable points are lost and then assess the options afterwards based on points raised.

Otherwise, this meeting will be a moaney chaos with little value, if your serious about this then somebody needs to lead the way. Everything that happened regarding a 6am text, bar credit lost, monthly draw and subs lost etc. counts for nothing now and every member will have their own gripe. Unless this meeting is to discuss future options then its a big bitchfest that provides no benefit.

Right, just to be clear again. I spoke with the landowner yesterday and he was telling me that he has new machinery on the way for doing the fairways, etc. He is a great man altogether and the club is already up and running, or as he said himself, "we are open for business" But who is open for business? Who is deciding what machinery we will buy? Who is deciding under what terms we are playing golf? Is it the land owner or our club. Would you like to meet me and help formulate a plan because even though I am trying my best and it is not good enough it is better than going up and roaming around the golf course like lost sheep. I am available at any time before Monday.
EDIT. P.S. I agree that the members should negotiate to buy the land.

eagleleyes

fennetec wrote: »

South County Golf Club was one of the top 100 clubs recognized by Failte Ireland up to last Monday, there is no reason why it won't still be one of the top 100 clubs next Monday. I was one of those who paid up front and got two friends to join and do the same but I am not going to prostitute myself out to another club even if they offer free membership to year end. Like I say, if it was a good club yesterday it can be a good club tomorrow, we must support Raymie and the staff and get back on track.

If Raymie has the sense he was born with he wouldnt go near the place again, its name is too dirty now. I believe we haven't even seen the tip of the iceberg yet. Watch this space!

vikingdub

fennetec wrote: »

Right, just to be clear again. I spoke with the landowner yesterday and he was telling me that he has new machinery on the way for doing the fairways, etc. He is a great man altogether and the club is already up and running, or as he said himself, "we are open for business" But who is open for business? Who is deciding what machinery we will buy? Who is deciding under what terms we are playing golf? Is it the land owner or our club. Would you like to meet me and help formulate a plan because even though I am trying my best and it is not good enough it is better than going up and roaming around the golf course like lost sheep. I am available at any time before Monday.
EDIT. P.S. I agree that the members should negotiate to buy the land.

Seems like he got a little more than two days notice, I would imagine, even if sourcing from a "distressed" club or auction house that it would take more than two days to have "machinery on the way". On the other hand he may be spoofing.

Sandwlch

Am sorry for the many members who have lost money, those who have lost their jobs, and understand the instinct to try to salvage something from the wreckage that seems to have been a good golf course with keen and active members.

But is the bottom line not just that there are now too many golf clubs in Ireland? Membership is down, green fee income is down, society golf is down. And that, to be a little brutal, but not meaning to offend anyone - the weakest will just die off.

Would the former SCGS members not just be better off cutting their losses and moving on to golf elsewhere? I am sure a few groups cut could a very good deal for themselves en-bloc with some other clubs in the area. They mightnt be quite as good course, might be more expensive, might not be as convenient for some - but in the end, contribute to a more sustainable and secure golfing situation in general. And that they, or others, are not at risk of further losses if too many clubs are sailing too close to the financial breeze because they are just chasing too few members to be sustainable.

Russman

Sandwlch wrote: »

Am sorry for the many members who have lost money, those who have lost their jobs, and understand the instinct to try to salvage something from the wreckage that seems to have been a good golf course with keen and active members.

But is the bottom line not just that there are now too many golf clubs in Ireland? Membership is down, green fee income is down, society golf is down. And that, to be a little brutal, but not meaning to offend anyone - the weakest will just die off.

Would the former SCGS members not just be better off cutting their losses and moving on to golf elsewhere? I am sure a few groups cut could a very good deal for themselves en-bloc with some other clubs in the area. They mightnt be quite as good course, might be more expensive, might not be as convenient for some - but in the end, contribute to a more sustainable and secure golfing situation in general. And that they, or others, are not at risk of further losses if too many clubs are sailing too close to the financial breeze because they are just chasing too few members to be sustainable.

+1
I'd say once the initial shock and upset dies down that's how it will play out. There's no way on earth I can see anyone being able to set up again without dealing with the large debt. Thats not going to go away. I do think SCGC is tainted goods now and will find it hard to attract people, even if a plan is potentially viable.


It does seem like the members have been shafted royally though, and, all banter and bickering aside, its a sh1tty situation they find themselves in and I wish them the best whatever way they play it.

As Sandwich says, going en-bloc to other clubs is not a totally bad "least worst option" and might help stabilise those clubs the SCGC guys go to.

monkeybutter

10 euro pay and play?????? I am gonna tear that course up, and not in metaphorical sense either.

shamco

The board could have been more aggresive in its cost cutting by not building stupid toilets right beside the clubhouse and employing a ranger who was next to useless. They could have done what other clubs have done in the area by closing the clubhouse completely during weekdays. However having said all that I seem to remember that a previous board ran up a deficit of arround 700k

the lawman

monkeybutter wrote: »

10 euro pay and play?????? I am gonna tear that course up, and not in metaphorical sense either.

Don't you mean 'not in a literal sense...'?

Whyner

http://www.southcountygolf.ie/mysitecaddy/site3/currentnews.htm?item=14257

vikingdub

Whyner wrote: »

http://www.southcountygolf.ie/mysitecaddy/site3/currentnews.htm?item=14257

Perhaps the conspiracy theorists are not paranoid after all.

The claim that 80% of the rent was being paid does not square with the claim on an earlier post that landlords had reduced the rent to (by) 40%?

carman2011

update on website saying landlords called in overdue rent, company couldn't pay, had to close......

Howjoe1

vikingdub wrote: »

Perhaps the conspiracy theorists are not paranoid after all.

The claim that 80% of the rent was being paid does not square with the claim on an earlier post that landlords had reduced the rent to (by) 40%?

Maybe they were paying 80% of the reduced rent?

Very sad to read all this. I was considering joining up somewhere shortly but this has made me a bit nervous of forking out money.

link_2007

I don't know what to believe anymore

Redzah

Jaysus, its hard to dechiper the truth in this.

I'd imagine the landlord didn't budge on the rent when it became obvious that a reduction was necessary to keep the course open so they definately have to take some blame despite the fact that they were perfectly entitled to the full rent under the terms of the lease, kind of a short term pain for long term gain dilemma. The board of management also should take some of the blame for what appears to be overspending in recent times as they were unable to run a club within it's means which is highlighted by an accumulated losses balance.

It is hard to ascertain if the 60 members in question continued to play in SC from Jan - Apr and then did not pay or if they indicated to the board that they were not renewing in Jan. By the sound of it the former happened in which case the 60 members in question conned the board to get 4 months free golf and this contributed to the demise of the club along with the other factors above.

Its all very interesting and basically it appears that in my unbiased opinion that an unfortunate series of events for which different parties are to blame resulted in the closing of this club.