South County GC Closed

ForeRight

For people who seem to be going down the road of thinking that something under handed has gone on in all this from the Kavanaghs there are a few facts you should know.

Pat Kavanagh had 9 shares in SCGC and his brother had 20!!!

They had given a 40% reduction to SCGC last year on the lease as times were very tough.


Also I was speaking to Raymie this morning up there and I asked him about the accounts in the pro shop. He told me absolutely everything is wiped clean and all the passwords were changed on the computers to log into the systems on tuesday night. WTF!!!

Hed had given credit to a huge amount of people for clothing, clubs etc etc and also lads had accounts that were in a good bit of credit but its all dead now he said.
I didnt want to ask but id imagine he is down an awful lot of his own money on this issue. The reason it is all gone is because it was all done through the SCGC mens club and that doesnt exist now either obviously.


Up there this morning and I was going to go out and play as the course was open but I refused to give pat kavanagh 10 euro to go out and play the course.

Pat Kavanagh on more than one occasion this morning said it would be easier for him to just fench the whole place and have sheep graze on it but he maintains that he is starting a new club called south county golf club instead of the old "the" south county GC. It is pay and play for everyone....previous members fully paid matters nothing as its nothing to do with him. He didnt take our subs and I understand where he is coming from but if he wants the place to survive he is going to have to come up with some plan to keep existing members on board.

From what I saw and witnessed in the club this morning I am very worried though. kavanagh was talking a good game but I really dont think things are going to have any sort of happy ending for all involved.
He will be at the end of his tether in a few days with this as his phone didnt stop ringing for the hour I was there and I am worried he will just throw his hat at the whole thing

Alrite Chief

bustercherry wrote: »

Hmmmmm very interesting when you look at the board of that company.

How do you mean?

carman2011

if u amalgamate the 2 companies the overall position is solvent, just has really bad liquidity.
the boards of the 2 companies are the same, same 7 directors in both.

i wonder do the "mens club", which is seperate from the SCGC have accounts. They collect half the competition fees, to pay for inter clubs and running of the comps etc, i believe they have a reasonable amount of cash on hand, i presume members will be made aware of this after the next committee meeting etc

eagleleyes

I paid my sub this year and I am not a shareholder but when I asked many members who werent paying theirs why, without exception each and everyone of them said the same thing. The Board had put a value of 1,289 on membership when it advertised it to newcomers. Yet it expected its existing members to cough up much more. These were members who had already bailed out the club. Negotiation or compromise was not on the cards. I have only been a member for a year but for at least 9 months of that time I had the feeling that something was not right in the place and that feeling came from the top! Too many chiefs and not enough Indians.

Redzah

carman2011 wrote: »

if u amalgamate the 2 companies the overall position is solvent, just has really bad liquidity.
the boards of the 2 companies are the same, same 7 directors in both.

i wonder do the "mens club", which is seperate from the SCGC have accounts. They collect half the competition fees, to pay for inter clubs and running of the comps etc, i believe they have a reasonable amount of cash on hand, i presume members will be made aware of this after the next committee meeting etc

Not really as the golf course is being carried at €4.3m in the books of SC Properties which the auditors have issued a qualified opinion on this balance as there is no market to correctly value it.

I looked at the accounts there and to be honest they stink of enter at your own risk signs and highlight a completely insolvent company, analysis of key facts below;

Auditors report of SC(2004) has an emphasis of matter regarding going concern which is reliant on the continued support of its members and the banks. Quite clearly this continued support was pulled.
The company has an accumulated retained losses of €1m (and growing) which is an extremely worrying trend.

The club has cash of €6k which is pittance to run a golf club so even if it was profitable cash flow difficulties alone would probably have caused it to cease trading. However this gets even worse as the bank overdraft balance is €34k at the year end which gives a net cash balance of -€28k. Depending on their overdraft threshold this could have been in breach and the banks could've started to put the pressure on big time to recoup this or more likely have told them that no further overdraft facility will be granted until this balance is serviced.

The debtors figure is €417k of which €397k is owed from group companies (SC property). SC Property do not have liquid funds to repay this and therefore this figure is not recoverable and will never be paid from SC property to SC(2004) so u can wipe this off the SC(2004) balance sheet immediately which gives Net Current Liabilites of €500k and Total Net Liabilites of €1.5m.

IMO, You are right in sayin that the loans from members was unlikely to be called in with the financial difficulties but as this balance has reduced by €20k from 2010 (albeit a small amount) then some members had most likely utilised their loan balances against annual subs and thus further impacted on the liquidity of the company.

Whats very interesting is that SC (2004) provided further cash advances in 2011 of €110k(of which €55k was repaid) to SC Properties. SC properties accounts are abridged (limited info) so its difficult to ascertain where this money was spent. But as i said before the total balance owing to SC (2004) from SC Prop of €397k is not recoverable as SC Prop do not have the current liquid funds to repay this. The only way SC Prop can repay this is to sell the fixed asset (i.e. Golf Course) valued at €4.3m in the books which is not plausable in the current environment. Furthermore, the auditors of SC Properties qualified the 2011 audit opinion due to a limition of scope surrounding the value that the golf course is carried at.

Finally, an analysis of the cash flows of SC (2004) illustrates a decrease of cash of €63k in 2011 (decrease of €85k in 2010). This future emphasises cash flow difficulties SC experienced.

In conclusion, the 2011 SC(2004) accounts illustrate that the company was f'ed. However, not much use to a member who paid early as they were only available late april. SC (2004) has no chance of re-trading IMO unless it enters examinership to screw their creditors over, re-negoitiate the terms of the lease for the land and can generate signficant cash in the short term to fund day to day operations.
Hope this gives you a better picture of the financial position of SC as at 31/12/11 which has not doubt got even worse in the last 4 months.

Gambino

I heard the same complaints about the different subs but when I asked what alternative strategy was being proposed, I got no answer. The price difference was a couple of hundred. When a business is in trouble in a tough market it is hardly unreasonable to expect your shareholders and investors to put in that bit extra, while you try to trade and expand your way out of trouble.

I'm not giving up on it just yet. Its a better course than any of the alternatives in the area. If the Kavanaghs can hang on to a decent chunk of the members, market it well and maintain the course in good nick, it could and should be able to operate profitably - assuming the debt burden dies with the old club (and the malcontents who ruined it have left.)

I don't begrudge them €10 a pop to keep it going. After all we pay €7 for competition entry. I'll certainly keep playing my golf there for the time being and I hope others do the same.

scubapro

It's all well and good for the accountants summarizing the filed accounts blah blah blah blah, most of us( non accountants) took the club at face value. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Was up there this evening, met the landlord, seems like a genuine guy, looks like he has been screwed over as well as Raymie. I know he met with a committee member today to try and get them on board, keep the comps going but to me it looks like a lost cause. He has a new green keeper employed and has managed to get some machinery to maintain the course, as mentioned there will be a 10 euro charge for the course, obviously the course maintenance has to be covered.

RIP

Gambino

Anybody know another course that is better value at €10?

eagleleyes

Is it true that the Landlords son in law is great mates with the ex chairman and incoming captain? I just heard this now from a local who lives up there? Also whats this about a road going through the course? Would there have been any benefit to the sharholders from this? Im only asking as I only joined within the last year and dont know all the ins and outs.

Alrite Chief

Good stuff with the financial analysis Redzah.

Im done thinking about it now until after the committee meeting tonight. Im sure a statement will be issued in due course. All the conspiracy theories are worth sweet FA.

Redzah

scubapro wrote: »

It's all well and good for the accountants summarizing the filed accounts blah blah blah blah, most of us( non accountants) took the club at face value. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Was up there this evening, met the landlord, seems like a genuine guy, looks like he has been screwed over as well as Raymie. I know he met with a committee member today to try and get them on board, keep the comps going but to me it looks like a lost cause. He has a new green keeper employed and has managed to get some machinery to maintain the course, as mentioned there will be a 10 euro charge for the course, obviously the course maintenance has to be covered.

RIP

Yes Scubapro, i agree with you that hindsight is a wonderful thing but in the current environment taking anything at face value when your handing over €1.5k is extremely naive without doing your homework or asking somebody who has the revelant knowledge to do so.

I was just trying to highlight that the accounts highlight the financial difficulties of the company and that saying they didn't let us know blah blah blah is naive on your part. They didn't let you know because they probably ascertained that they had a 10% chance of turning things around but they were certain that they had 0% chance if they told the members they were f'ed.

Gambino

I think they mean the current Vice Captain - incoming in 2013.

There is a bit of a conspiracy theory industry on the go about those connections but be in no doubt - the reason the club has gone is because 100+ members wouldn't pay their share.

The road thing is about the proposed widening of the N81. One routing (I think the one preferred by the Council) would cut across the 14th and 15th. However there is a long way to go on that and in the current environment I don't see it happening any time soon. I may be wrong but I think the club would have benefited from any compensation.

tonyka

is it the committee members of the golf club that are meeting tonight ?
if so, have the board members of the company no more responsibility to the shareholders ? are we leaderless, if so what are our options ?

bustercherry

Gambino wrote: »

I think they mean the current Vice Captain - incoming in 2013.

There is a bit of a conspiracy theory industry on the go about those connections but be in no doubt - the reason the club has gone is because 100+ members wouldn't pay their share didn't renew memberships.

The road thing is about the proposed widening of the N81. One routing (I think the one preferred by the Council) would cut across the 14th and 15th. However there is a long way to go on that and in the current environment I don't see it happening any time soon. I may be wrong but I think the club would have benefited from any compensation.

Fixed that for you. It's apparent there are reasons they didn't renew but it's certainly not the fault of them that the club was run so bad.

Alrite Chief

Gambino wrote: »

There is a bit of a conspiracy theory industry on the go about those connections but be in no doubt - the reason the club has gone is because 100+ members wouldn't pay their share.

Divide 2 million euro dept by 100 members. This idea that the members not 'doing their bit has wrecked the club' is really pissing me off. Clearly they were unhappy about the club and its running. Clearly the board gave them no encouragement or incentive to pay up. Its the boards fault this has went tits up and they went out on a whimper the cowardly ****ing bastards.

bustercherry

Gambino wrote: »

Anybody know another course that is better value at €10?

:rolleyes:

thinned it

I think the whole secrecy before the closure will scare a lot of previous members away - once bitten and all that. Absolutely gutted as I loved that course! I personally will be looking for a new club.. the so called summer is upon us and I want to be playing competitive golf asap so will not be hanging around for the "what if's"

I really hope something happens up there and if it does no doubt I will be back! Best of luck to Ramie, I hope he survives this - top man!

bustercherry

Gambino wrote: »

I heard the same complaints about the different subs but when I asked what alternative strategy was being proposed, I got no answer. The price difference was a couple of hundred. When a business is in trouble in a tough market it is hardly unreasonable to expect your shareholders and investors to put in that bit extra, while you try to trade and expand your way out of trouble.

I'm not giving up on it just yet. Its a better course than any of the alternatives in the area. If the Kavanaghs can hang on to a decent chunk of the members, market it well and maintain the course in good nick, it could and should be able to operate profitably - assuming the debt burden dies with the old club (and the malcontents who ruined it have left.)

I don't begrudge them €10 a pop to keep it going. After all we pay €7 for competition entry. I'll certainly keep playing my golf there for the time being and I hope others do the same.

400 hundred if the new member come from another club if I remember rightly. That's a fcuking huge difference in this current market.

Alrite Chief

Gambino wrote: »

Anybody know another course that is better value at €10?

Outstanding value for any oul joe soap to come in and hack up the course. Not great value for paid up members.

Alrite Chief

thinned it wrote: »

I think the whole secrecy before the closure will scare a lot of previous members away - once bitten and all that. Absolutely gutted as I loved that course! I personally will be looking for a new club.. the so called summer is upon us and I want to be playing competitive golf asap so will not be hanging around for the "what if's"

I really hope something happens up there and if it does no doubt I will be back! Best of luck to Ramie, I hope he survives this - top man!

+1 about Raymie. I will miss him. Iv rarely felt as welcome in a pro shop anywhere else even when i was a visitor at SC.

As regards looking to play golf with the season coming up i totally agree. Iv no ties to SC and either do 90% of the membership. Everyone has been burned and something massive needs to happen to regain that kind of trust and atmosphere that existed in the club.

Beach Park, Slade Valley and Castlewarden on high alert. 600 hot leads.

scubapro

Redzah wrote: »

Yes Scubapro, i agree with you that hindsight is a wonderful thing but in the current environment taking anything at face value when your handing over €1.5k is extremely naive without doing your homework or asking somebody who has the revelant knowledge to do so.

I was just trying to highlight that the accounts highlight the financial difficulties of the company and that saying they didn't let us know blah blah blah is naive on your part. They didn't let you know because they probably ascertained that they had a 10% chance of turning things around but they were certain that they had 0% chance if they told the members they were f'ed.

Naive...guilty..some of the stories I heard this evening from the assistant pro would indicate to me that very few if any checked the company accounts, were they naive...possibly in hindsight.

I agree of course that they were flying by the seat of their arse taking in subs up until last week on the chance that they might dodge the bullet for the moment but these f..ks knew the game was up.

Thanks anyway for highlighting the financials, appreciate it, just those figures are meaningless to me now.

Might give you a shout when I'm joining a new club:D

thinned it

There is a lot of free golf out there if you let them know you are interested in joining and some fabulous courses not too far out that are needing members so don't be hasty!

Totally agree about Ramie & again top man!

Was reply to Alright chief..!

stinkypoo

Gambino wrote: »

I think they mean the current Vice Captain - incoming in 2013.

There is a bit of a conspiracy theory industry on the go about those connections but be in no doubt - the reason the club has gone is because 100+ members wouldn't pay their share.

The road thing is about the proposed widening of the N81. One routing (I think the one preferred by the Council) would cut across the 14th and 15th. However there is a long way to go on that and in the current environment I don't see it happening any time soon. I may be wrong but I think the club would have benefited from any compensation.

Has anyone asked why such a huge amount of people didnt pay the sub? It would be normal to expect a handful but 100 seems very large? Dont think I've ever heard of this happening before. It also seems unfair and a bit begrudging for you to blame 100 people who must have had valid reasons and level no blame on those who were at the helm of the sinking ship. Blaming them seems just a tad prejudiced! As the saying goes, there are three sides to every story. Dont be too rash in throwing around accusations like that. Just sayin like!

Pedro D

A number of members found themselves unable to afford the subs and offered genuine alternatives to the board. All were rejected and a number of then walked. Their friends at the club then refused to renew because of how the board treated individuals who have supported the club from the outset. The board carried on and told us that all was good but as soon as the april subs were paid they appear to have shut up shop without any egm. It not going to be easy to recover from this

Pedro D

Raymie is the kind of guy that could save the day, if he sticks around, people will stay with him

link_2007

Redzah, I mentioned it before but you didn't acknowledge it - you're definitely an auditor!? If I was to put my neck on the line I would say studying for finals or passed them last year?

Dublinvillian

I've paid a deposit to them for a society outing , do you think its even worth ringing them about ?

Alrite Chief

Dublinvillian wrote: »

I've paid a deposit to them for a society outing , do you think its even worth ringing them about ?

Not a hope. How did you pay? Cash or card?

Redzah

link_2007 wrote: »

Redzah, I mentioned it before but you didn't acknowledge it - you're definitely an auditor!? If I was to put my neck on the line I would say studying for finals or passed them last year?

Lol, your doing me a disservice link, finals were complete in 2009

stinkypoo

Pedro D wrote: »

A number of members found themselves unable to afford the subs and offered genuine alternatives to the board. All were rejected and a number of then walked. Their friends at the club then refused to renew because of how the board treated individuals who have supported the club from the outset. The board carried on and told us that all was good but as soon as the april subs were paid they appear to have shut up shop without any egm. It not going to be easy to recover from this

In that case, all I can say is the whole thing stinks of something rotten!