South County GC Closed

Pedro D

Bonnamassa wrote: »

fennetec wrote: »

At the request of Pat Kavanagh, the meeting arranged for Monday night is now changed to:

Tuesday, 15th May 2012 at Avon Ri, Blessington, Co. Wicklow.

3 days later and I'm still trying to rise above the initial anger and now the increasing disappointment of our lost club.

Regarding Pat Kavanagh's request that the meeting be deferred to Tuesday night, I'd be interested in any views any of you might feel like sharing with regard to what possible proposals he might put forward. Does anyone hold out any hope that a phoenix might rise of the ashes? I need to hear something positive!

Pat will look to the members to form a club and run competitions etc and he will manage the money and upkeep of the course

Sandwlch

moycullen14 wrote: »

+1
a high rent is unsustainable in this climate. Maybe the landowners only choice ia to run it as a pay per play.

Pay per play will struggle versus members clubs, since an owner is looking for a profit from it. Members clubs look for no profit so all else being equal can provide a superior product for a given cost. Anyone looking to turn a profit from land through golf is only heading for a nasty ending IMO.

Bonnamassa wrote: »

Does anyone hold out any hope that a phoenix might rise of the ashes? I need to hear something positive!

Why look for a phoenix if it is based on an poor foundation - which SCGC cannot now but be. It is tough enough to sustain a members club these days and SCGC 2.0 would now be carrying two impossible handicaps - 1) still a landlord controlled course looking to cream an income from it, and 2) the stigma that will scare many members away for the forseeable future even if a phoenix does try to take flight.

Alrite Chief

Pedro D wrote: »

Q: would it be right to support the landlord now since he in part contributed to the closure?

A big fat NO. Why should you or would you? What incentive is he offering the ex-members for their dedication. €10 golf the same as anyone coming in off the road.

There is a gap in the market for cheap pay as you play golf. Plenty of people out there inc societies who will gladly pay €10 be it casual, comps or charity. Lovely little earner for Kavanaghs. Thats what he is targeting. No use for the ex-members who want to play competitive golf with GUI affiliation though. He told a fellow ex member the other morning that there is another you out there you'll be soon replaced and forgotten. That's his attitude gentlemen.

There is 3 clubs so far today who are offering us free golf as a gesture. A friendly gesture to generate new members albeit. Seems that's more obvious to other clubs than the Kavanaghs.

Gambino

Bonnamassa wrote: »

fennetec wrote: »

At the request of Pat Kavanagh, the meeting arranged for Monday night is now changed to:

Tuesday, 15th May 2012 at Avon Ri, Blessington, Co. Wicklow.

3 days later and I'm still trying to rise above the initial anger and now the increasing disappointment of our lost club.

Regarding Pat Kavanagh's request that the meeting be deferred to Tuesday night, I'd be interested in any views any of you might feel like sharing with regard to what possible proposals he might put forward. Does anyone hold out any hope that a phoenix might rise of the ashes? I need to hear something positive![/Quote

Well he will start with an asset in pretty good shape, minimal - if any - debt and a potentially good customer base. That's about as good a start up situation as I can think of.

The downside is a lack of expertise and experience in running a golf club and a malevolent element among former members who seem more interested in ruining the whole thing.

Pedro D

Sandwlch wrote: »

moycullen14 wrote: »

+1
a high rent is unsustainable in this climate. Maybe the landowners only choice ia to run it as a pay per play.

Pay per play will struggle versus members clubs, since an owner is looking for a profit from it. Members clubs look for no profit so all else being equal can provide a superior product for a given cost. Anyone looking to turn a profit from land through golf is only heading for a nasty ending IMO.

Bonnamassa wrote: »

Does anyone hold out any hope that a phoenix might rise of the ashes? I need to hear something positive!

Why look for a phoenix if it is based on an poor foundation - which SCGC cannot now but be. It is tough enough to sustain a members club these days and SCGC 2.0 would now be carrying two impossible handicaps - 1) still a landlord controlled course looking to cream an income from it, and 2) the stigma that will scare many members away for the forseeable future even if a phoenix does try to take flight.

Probable only viable option is a total buy out of the land by a small group of interested parties connected with the old club

Pedro D

Pedro D wrote: »

Sandwlch wrote: »

moycullen14 wrote: »

+1
a high rent is unsustainable in this climate. Maybe the landowners only choice ia to run it as a pay per play.

Pay per play will struggle versus members clubs, since an owner is looking for a profit from it. Members clubs look for no profit so all else being equal can provide a superior product for a given cost. Anyone looking to turn a profit from land through golf is only heading for a nasty ending IMO.

Bonnamassa wrote: »

Does anyone hold out any hope that a phoenix might rise of the ashes? I need to hear something positive!

Why look for a phoenix if it is based on an poor foundation - which SCGC cannot now but be. It is tough enough to sustain a members club these days and SCGC 2.0 would now be carrying two impossible handicaps - 1) still a landlord controlled course looking to cream an income from it, and 2) the stigma that will scare many members away for the forseeable future even if a phoenix does try to take flight.

Probable only viable option is a total buy out of the land by a small group of interested parties connected with the old club

Agree totally but it would be a travesty if such a well built and superbly maintained course reverts to agri land grained on by sheep

GD1976

Alrite Chief wrote: »

Pedro D wrote: »

Q: would it be right to support the landlord now since he in part contributed to the closure?

A big fat NO. Why should you or would you? What incentive is he offering the ex-members for their dedication. €10 golf the same as anyone coming in off the road.

There is a gap in the market for cheap pay as you play golf. Plenty of people out there inc societies who will gladly pay €10 be it casual, comps or charity. Lovely little earner for Kavanaghs. Thats what he is targeting. No use for the ex-members who want to play competitive golf with GUI affiliation though. He told a fellow ex member the other morning that there is another you out there you'll be soon replaced and forgotten. That's his attitude gentlemen.

There is 3 clubs so far today who are offering us free golf as a gesture. A friendly gesture to generate new members albeit. Seems that's more obvious to other clubs than the Kavanaghs.

Who are 3 clubs;? Killeen, rathsallagh and ..who.
Thanks

Gambino

Look folks. This thread has been going for three days and we have all made our points.

I suggest that those who have decided that South County is a lost cause in any situation, go away and find something more useful to do with their time. Good luck and enjoy your golf, wherever you decide to play it.

Those (me included) who think it is worth exploring the possibilities arising from the efforts of the landlords to make a new club can continue to discuss and share information and ideas. We can also throw around ideas about alternatives.

That would be interesting and useful. More diatribes about the evil board and landlord are not.

I only ask that those who have helped destroy South County tell us where they are going next.

PhilipMarlowe

Condescending much? Leave setting ground rules about what can be discussed to the moderators. I doubt I'd appreciate being told to go and live happily ever after if I were in the situation that 'members' now find themselves...

Gambino

PhilipMarlowe wrote: »

Condescending much? Leave setting ground rules about what can be discussed to the moderators. I doubt I'd appreciate being told to go and live happily ever after if I were in the situation that 'members' now find themselves...

See what I mean?

Alrite Chief

GD1976 wrote: »

Who are 3 clubs;? Killeen, rathsallagh and ..who.
Thanks

Slade valley too are preparing an attractive offer and want to meet us.

Gambino you are entitled to your opinions and others to theirs. As I pointed out if there is an invcentive for SCGC ex members to be part of this rescue mission I'm sure we will. Otherwise our money is gone and who could blame us for considering our options. Nobody wants to be forking out more subs if they cannot afford it. This debate can continue to be constructive without people believing in fairies.

Sandwlch

Gambino wrote: »

See what I mean?

No.

Gambino

Alrite Chief wrote: »

GD1976 wrote: »

Who are 3 clubs;? Killeen, rathsallagh and ..who.
Thanks

Slade valley too are preparing an attractive offer and want to meet us.

Gambino you are entitled to your opinions and others to theirs. As I pointed out if there is an invcentive for SCGC ex members to be part of this rescue mission I'm sure we will. Otherwise our money is gone and who could blame us for considering our options. Nobody wants to be forking out more subs if they cannot afford it. This debate can continue to be constructive without people believing in fairies.

I fully agree. Each of us needs to decide what is best for them. We are starting with a clean sheet. Loyalty to the past just obscures the picture but so does nursing grudges and perceived wrongs.

thegen

Gambino wrote: »

I fully agree. Each of us needs to decide what is best for them. We are starting with a clean sheet. Loyalty to the past just obscures the picture but so does nursing grudges and perceived wrongs.

Each to their own. The fact that a board member rang an ex employee and threatened him is OK, perceived my arse. Once a bully always a bully.

The club will go nowhere if RS, TF, JN are involved. They have alienated themselves from a large part of the membership.

fennetec

Gambino wrote: »

Look folks. This thread has been going for three days and we have all made our points.

I suggest that those who have decided that South County is a lost cause in any situation, go away and find something more useful to do with their time. Good luck and enjoy your golf, wherever you decide to play it.

Those (me included) who think it is worth exploring the possibilities arising from the efforts of the landlords to make a new club can continue to discuss and share information and ideas. We can also throw around ideas about alternatives.

That would be interesting and useful. More diatribes about the evil board and landlord are not.

I only ask that those who have helped destroy South County tell us where they are going next.

Help me here because I must be totally stupid based on the above? I will gladly head off somewhere else if myself and the members I introduced and influenced to pay their full membership up front just two weeks ago are refunded our money. Just as an example, I called a meeting of all the members for next week as announced in this thread and Pat Kavanagh agreed that he and the board would attend. Last evening the following mail was circulated to all members by Pat Kavanagh.
"A meeting of all members and shareholders of south county golf club will be held at 8pm in Avon ri, Blessington lakeshore on Tuesday 15 may at 8pm. Any previous unofficial notification sent re Monday night are cancelled.

Thanks very much

Pat kavanagh" (His spelling of Kavanagh, not mine)

To which I have replied;

Dear Pat,

Can you please clarify how the previous meeting called for Monday night has been termed by you to be unofficial ? I, as a member called a meeting of all members for us to discuss between us what options were open to us following the way we were informed that we no longer had a club. In fact, as a member of a club that you have taken repossession of your land from, the members have far more of a right to call a meeting between themselves than you have. From a legal standpoint I take serious exception to the insinuation that I called an unofficial meeting. I called a meeting for all the members and invited you to attend. The meeting remains scheduled for Tuesday night at Avon Ri at 8pm but, far from it being unofficial, it is the members that are calling the meeting and you are most welcome to come along as are the board and explain what proposals each party may have.

It would help if you provided me with an agenda as much as it would help if the board would do the same.

It appears that we as members have no say at all regardless of whether we are trying to be helpful or not. Unless Pat Kavanagh and all the well intended realize that people who could ill afford to go up to Brittas and hand over €2,000 each that they scrimped and saved for are hurt and sensitive, Pat Kavanagh will have more people fishing for trout in the Lisheen river than he will have on his golf course.
Here is a lovely article to read to calm everyone; http://www.independent.ie/sport/golf/the-gentle-genius-of-raymond-burns-509250.html

Gambino

If you have a beef over your paid sub, join the queue of creditors. However it doesn't form outside Pat Kavanagh's house.

As far as I know, Tuesday's meeting is to hear about the future. If you or any of the other agitators intend to use it to fight another battle in the war you have already lost, I'll wait outside until you are finished.

GD1976

Not that it matters much what's the difference in a member and a shareholder.

I joined in 2009 and paid full subs and a joining fee (all be it not as much as some)

shamco

thegen wrote: »

Each to their own. The fact that a board member rang an ex employee and threatened him is OK, perceived my arse. Once a bully always a bully.

The club will go nowhere if RS, TF, JN are involved. They have alienated themselves from a large part of the membership.

From what i have justed learned. The landlord invoked his clause in the lease and wouldnt budge on this. The banks wouldnt increase the overdraft so there was nowhere else to go. I do agree the the board should have waited a while and called an EGM rather than communicating by text but i fear the result would have been the same in the long run. The problem was created by initial investors and previous boards who ran up huge debts ( who all have left the club).
BTW the only board I'm a member of is this one and am nursing a serious loss through "South County Experience" so I wont be investing another cent.

frost53

Gambino wrote: »

If you have a beef over your paid sub, join the queue of creditors. However it doesn't form outside Pat Kavanagh's house.

As far as I know, Tuesday's meeting is to hear about the future. If you or any of the other agitators intend to use it to fight another battle in the war you have already lost, I'll wait outside until you are finished.

I never saw Pat Kananagh's lips move...goggle of geer

FixdePitchmark

Sorry lads for all your trouble, but also losing money like that is sickening.

It is just a bit mental, that things seemed to be to going on as if all was ok, people paying fees etc only 2 weeks ago.

thegen

It looks like Mr Kavanagh has hijacked the meeting which was being organised by a member, maybe Mr Kavanagh should set an agenda and chair this meeting himself. Feentec got it rolling but Mr Kavanagh has hijacked it going by his email to the members.

fennetec

Gambino wrote: »

If you have a beef over your paid sub, join the queue of creditors. However it doesn't form outside Pat Kavanagh's house.

As far as I know, Tuesday's meeting is to hear about the future. If you or any of the other agitators intend to use it to fight another battle in the war you have already lost, I'll wait outside until you are finished.

Yes, with the best will in the world I called the meeting to hear about the future, a fact that I already stated, for the precise purpose of seeing could we get the club back on the road before the members scattered.. I did so in consultation with Pat Kavanagh and then I was told I had organized an unofficial meeting. Secondly, I did not lose any war simply because I did not enter one. The war you refer to was apparantly raging before I even joined the club.

With regard to GD1976 question about what is the difference between a shareholder and a member I do not know but I know this. I attended meetings in Avon Ri and Tallaght Plaza this year to view and discuss the NRA plans for the new N81 motorway extension from Jobstown to Blessington. If I was a shareholder in a parcel of land on which I had a long lease and it transpired that the directors of my company handed it back without consultation with the shareholders and it later transpired that this was the wrong thing to do because my shares would have higher value I would be in a war allright. I am not saying the blue line below is correct but neither is the motorway going to follow the crooked roads from Crooksling to Brittas. Anyway, I have said all I have to say and this is my concluding post. The meeting is at 8pm, do feel free to stand outside the door if we are discussing something YOU dont like because if thats what you are going to do if you get your club back you are welcome to it.

Gambino

fennetec wrote: »

Gambino wrote: »

If you have a beef over your paid sub, join the queue of creditors. However it doesn't form outside Pat Kavanagh's house.

As far as I know, Tuesday's meeting is to hear about the future. If you or any of the other agitators intend to use it to fight another battle in the war you have already lost, I'll wait outside until you are finished.

Yes, with the best will in the world I called the meeting to hear about the future, a fact that I already stated, for the precise purpose of seeing could we get the club back on the road before the members scattered.. I did so in consultation with Pat Kavanagh and then I was told I had organized an unofficial meeting. Secondly, I did not lose any war simply because I did not enter one. The war you refer to was apparantly raging before I even joined the club.

With regard to GD1976 question about what is the difference between a shareholder and a member I do not know but I know this. I attended meetings in Avon Ri and Tallaght Plaza this year to view and discuss the NRA plans for the new N81 motorway extension from Jobstown to Blessington. If I was a shareholder in a parcel of land on which I had a long lease and it transpired that the directors of my company handed it back without consultation with the shareholders and it later transpired that this was the wrong thing to do because my shares would have higher value I would be in a war allright. I am not saying the blue line below is correct but neither is the motorway going to follow the crooked roads from Crooksling to Brittas. Anyway, I have said all I have to say and this is my concluding post. The meeting is at 8pm, do feel free to stand outside the door if we are discussing something YOU dont like because if thats what you are going to do if you get your club back you are welcome to it.

I was not invited to any meeting by "a member", much less by an anonymous poster in this forum. The only invitation I have seen - or heard about - came from Pat Kavanagh. Members calling meetings of selected other members seems to be fashionable but I think "unofficial" is an apt term for them.

As for Tuesday, all I am interested in hearing about is what those in a position to move matters forward propose to do. As far as I can judge, the only person in that position at the moment is Pat Kavanagh.

Alrite Chief

Gambino wrote: »

I was not invited to any meeting by "a member", much less by an anonymous poster in this forum. The only invitation I have seen - or heard about - came from Pat Kavanagh. Members calling meetings of selected other members seems to be fashionable but I think "unofficial" is an apt term for them.

As for Tuesday, all I am interested in hearing about is what those in a position to move matters forward propose to do. As far as I can judge, the only person in that position at the moment is Pat Kavanagh.

Agree completely. Lets all just get to this meeting and see whats going on.

thegen

Gambino wrote: »

I was not invited to any meeting by "a member", much less by an anonymous poster in this forum. The only invitation I have seen - or heard about - came from Pat Kavanagh. Members calling meetings of selected other members seems to be fashionable but I think "unofficial" is an apt term for them.

As for Tuesday, all I am interested in hearing about is what those in a position to move matters forward propose to do. As far as I can judge, the only person in that position at the moment is Pat Kavanagh.

Thanks for sharing that with us Pat!

Alrite Chief

thegen wrote: »

Gambino wrote: »

I was not invited to any meeting by "a member", much less by an anonymous poster in this forum. The only invitation I have seen - or heard about - came from Pat Kavanagh. Members calling meetings of selected other members seems to be fashionable but I think "unofficial" is an apt term for them.

As for Tuesday, all I am interested in hearing about is what those in a position to move matters forward propose to do. As far as I can judge, the only person in that position at the moment is Pat Kavanagh.

Thanks for sharing that with us Pat!

You obviously haven't met Pat. Not a chance could he use a computer.

fennetec

Gambino wrote: »

I was not invited to any meeting by "a member", much less by an anonymous poster in this forum. The only invitation I have seen - or heard about - came from Pat Kavanagh. Members calling meetings of selected other members seems to be fashionable but I think "unofficial" is an apt term for them.

As for Tuesday, all I am interested in hearing about is what those in a position to move matters forward propose to do. As far as I can judge, the only person in that position at the moment is Pat Kavanagh.

Quite frankly I dont think there is any point in you going to a meeting at all because your failure to grasp something is astounding. You would not have got an invitation from me as an anonymous poster on the board, I already told you that I consulted with Pat Kavanagh and we agreed that I would acquire and confirm the venue for Monday night. I had no intention of sending you an invite, I went to the club and wrote out the Venue, Date and Time, I dont hide behind names on a board. I have explained all this, but especially for you, after I left the club Pat Kavanagh rang me and asked could I change the venue to Tuesday Night, 8pm. I said fine. He then circulated the email saying to ignore requests for an unofficial meeting and if you cant understand the reply I sent him then I am really sorry for you altogether. I was not a member calling a meeting of selected other members, hence the reason I went to the club for all to be circulated. Get it? Probably not.

Gambino

Alrite Chief wrote: »

thegen wrote: »

Gambino wrote: »

I was not invited to any meeting by "a member", much less by an anonymous poster in this forum. The only invitation I have seen - or heard about - came from Pat Kavanagh. Members calling meetings of selected other members seems to be fashionable but I think "unofficial" is an apt term for them.

As for Tuesday, all I am interested in hearing about is what those in a position to move matters forward propose to do. As I think Regenfar as I can judge, the only person in that position at the moment is Pat Kavanagh.

Thanks for sharing that with us Pat!

You obviously haven't met Pat. Not a chance could he use a computer.

I think thegen is a bit of a conspiracy theorist. He has already accused me of being Tom, Ronan or a composite of the entire board.

Incidentally there is a report that Tom Fahey has had a heart attack but this is not confirmed.

Alrite Chief

Gambino wrote: »

Incidentally there is a report that Tom Fahey has had a heart attack but this is not confirmed.

I believe he was brought to hospital Wednesday night. No idea what was his condition.

Gambino

fennetec wrote: »

Quite frankly I dont think there is any point in you going to a meeting at all because your failure to grasp something is astounding. You would not have got an invitation from me as an anonymous poster on the board, I already told you that I consulted with Pat Kavanagh and we agreed that I would acquire and confirm the venue for Monday night. I had no intention of sending you an invite, I went to the club and wrote out the Venue, Date and Time, I dont hide behind names on a board. I have explained all this, but especially for you, after I left the club Pat Kavanagh rang me and asked could I change the venue to Tuesday Night, 8pm. I said fine. He then circulated the email saying to ignore requests for an unofficial meeting and if you cant understand the reply I sent him then I am really sorry for you altogether. I was not a member calling a meeting of selected other members, hence the reason I went to the club for all to be circulated. Get it? Probably not.

My but we are a bit prickley. And I though Ronan was supposed to be the big ego tripper in this circus tent. If you want to take credit in calling for a meeting, be my guest. As for the "unofficial" bit, I think Pat just meant preliminary or initial notice of a meeting. I don't think he would claim to be a wordsmith.

And even if the meeting was your idea, Pat is still the one people will be coming to hear.