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Irish Palestine Solidarity Campaign

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    #362
    The Aussie
    Registered Users Posts: 2,440 ✭✭✭The Aussie


    Nodin wrote: »
    What do you suggest they do now?

    Call them all Terrorists, put them behind a big cement wall and persecute them... Oh wait, they tried that one, i wonder if they bothered thinking up a Plan B for this one.


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    #363
    czx
    Registered Users Posts: 544 ✭✭✭czx


    Nodin wrote: »
    But the colonisation of the area under their control continues. They've done what you suggested, and it hasn't worked.

    What do you suggest they do now?


    They haven't disarmed and they don't represent Palestine. 'They' haven't done what I suggested. 'They' weren't even who I was talking about.


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    #364
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    czx wrote: »
    They haven't disarmed and they don't represent Palestine. 'They' haven't done what I suggested. 'They' weren't even who I was talking about.


    ....but they represent the majority of the Palestinian people. They've conducted no military operations in years and have co-operated with Israel against Hamas and Islamic Jihad.

    Who are "they", if not Fatah?
    Wild Bill wrote:
    So......any comments on the cultural boycott then?
    .

    It seems to be getting there, slowly but surely. Certainly when anyone tries to play Jerusalem, its a chance to highlight the occupation there.


  • Options
    #365
    czx
    Registered Users Posts: 544 ✭✭✭czx


    Nodin wrote: »
    ....but they represent the majority of the Palestinian people. They've conducted no military operations in years and have co-operated with Israel against Hamas and Islamic Jihad.

    Who are "they", if not Fatah?



    It seems to be getting there, slowly but surely. Certainly when anyone trues to play Jerusalem, its a chance to highlight the occupation there.

    They don't represent the majority of the Palestinian people in any meaningful way. Palestine is deeply fragmented and without a unified voice. How can a state be defined if the people can't be defined? Or do you suggest not counting the actions of those living in the gaza strip as representing palestinians?

    Disarmerment is essential.


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    #366
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    czx wrote: »
    They don't represent the majority of the Palestinian people in any meaningful way. Palestine is deeply fragmented and without a unified voice. How can a state be defined if the people can't be defined? Or do you suggest not counting the actions of those living in the gaza strip as representing palestinians?

    ............

    And what about Israels expansion of settlements in the areas controlled by Fatah? Are they justified?
    czx wrote: »
    Disarmerment is essential.

    Do you propose that Israel disarm as well?


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    #367
    lividduck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,250 ✭✭✭lividduck


    Nodin wrote: »
    And what about Israels expansion of settlements in the areas controlled by Fatah? Are they justified?

    No. totally unjustified


    Do you propose that Israel disarm as well?
    no


  • Options
    #368
    czx
    Registered Users Posts: 544 ✭✭✭czx


    Nodin wrote: »
    And what about Israels expansion of settlements in the areas controlled by Fatah? Are they justified?





    Do you propose that Israel disarm as well?


    I don't think they are.


    It would be unwise for Israel to disarm given the attitude of neighbouring countries in general. Israel's military is not soley designed to deal with palestine.

    Palestine needs unity if it wants to be taken seriously, amongst other things.


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    #369
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    czx wrote: »
    I don't think they are..

    Thats good to know.
    czx wrote: »
    It would be unwise for Israel to disarm given the attitude of neighbouring countries in general. Israel's military is not soley designed to deal with palestine..

    ...then you can hardly expect it of the Palestinians, particularily in light of the fact that they've adopted a co-operative approach and been 'rewarded' with a speeded up programme of expansion for their trouble.
    czx wrote: »
    Palestine needs unity if it wants to be taken seriously, amongst other things.

    A rather pointless obstacle. For one thing, Israel has said it will refuse to deal with Fatah if it forms a unity government with Hamas. I suspect were Hamas to dissappear tommorrow, a new objection will be found. Secondly, Israel is not, nor has it been, ruled by a single party.


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    #370
    czx
    Registered Users Posts: 544 ✭✭✭czx


    Nodin wrote: »
    Thats good to know.



    ...then you can hardly expect it of the Palestinians, particularily in light of the fact that they've adopted a co-operative approach and been 'rewarded' with a speeded up programme of expansion for their trouble.



    A rather pointless obstacle. For one thing, Israel has said it will refuse to deal with Fatah if it forms a unity government with Hamas. I suspect were Hamas to dissappear tommorrow, a new objection will be found. Secondly, Israel is not, nor has it been, ruled by a single party.


    I can already see a way out! Stop self-destructing, disarm, act reasonably, unify.


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    #371
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    czx wrote: »
    I can already see a way out! Stop self-destructing, disarm, act reasonably, unify.

    So you're taking the piss then. Lovely.


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    #372
    czx
    Registered Users Posts: 544 ✭✭✭czx


    Nodin wrote: »
    So you're taking the piss then. Lovely.

    no


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    #373
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    czx wrote: »
    no

    Right then - I stated -

    ...then you can hardly expect it of the Palestinians, particularily in light of the fact that they've adopted a co-operative approach and been 'rewarded' with a speeded up programme of expansion for their trouble.


    For one thing, Israel has said it will refuse to deal with Fatahif it forms a unity government with Hamas. I suspect were Hamas to dissappear tommorrow, a new objection will be found. Secondly, Israel is not, nor has it been, ruled by a single party.

    Please spell out in detail specifially how your answer just given relates to the above.


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    #374
    The Israeli
    Registered Users Posts: 413 ✭✭The Israeli


    An interesting article that demonstrates why the distinct pro - Palestinian side is working against peace.
    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4227866,00.html

    Radicals can be defeated
    Op-ed: Alan Dershowitz shares his insights on best approach to use against anti-Israel extremists
    Alan M. Dershowitz
    Published:
    05.12.12, 13:24 / Israel Opinion



    I was gratified to read the article by Kasim Hafeez, a former anti-Semite who had become a Zionist. I was particularly gratified to learn that my book, The Case for Israel, played a role in his conversion from irrational hatred to support based on his own observations of the reality of Israel.
    Hafeez’s article came at a time when I was becoming skeptical of my own ability, and that of others who try to make the civil liberties case for Israel, to influence public opinion. The hatred for Israel in parts of Europe and on many university campuses has become so irrational that no evidence, regardless of how indisputable and powerful it may be, seems to be able to change closed minds hardened by years of unremitting falsehoods. These falsehoods take on an aura of undeserved credibility, particularly when espoused by people who identify themselves as Jewish or Israeli (or even formerly Jewish or formally Israeli.)
    But whenever I get discouraged, I recall an incident several years ago at the University of California at Irvine, which is a hotbed of anti-Israel hate speech. This is the very same campus where radical Islamic students tried to prevent Israel’s moderate ambassador, Professor Michael Oren, from speaking.

    Use extremism against radicals

    About a year before that incident, I spoke to a full audience of students that included some of the same radicals that tried to shut Oren down. About 100 of them sat to my right. Another 100 or so students, wearing pro-Israel shirts and kipot, sat to my left. Several hundred additional students were in the middle - both literally and ideologically. I know that because I asked for a show of hands before I began my remarks.

    I first asked for students to raise their hands if they generally support Israel. All the students to my left and several in the middle raised their hands. I then asked how many students supported the Palestinian side. All the students to my right and several in the middle raised their hands. I then posed the following question to the pro-Israel group: “How many of you would support a Palestinian state living in peace and without terrorism next to Israel?” Every single pro-Israel hand immediately went up. I then asked how many on the pro-Palestine side would accept a Jewish state within the 1967 borders, with no settlements on territory claimed by the Palestinians. There was some mumbling and brief conversation among the people to my right, but not a single hand was raised.
    The debate was essentially over, as everyone in the middle now recognized that this was not a conflict between pro-Israel and pro-Palestine groups, but rather, a conflict between those who would accept a two-state solution and those who would reject any Jewish state anywhere in the Middle East. The pro-Israel view had prevailed because I was able to use the extremism of the anti-Israel group to demonstrate the ugly truth about Israel’s enemies to the large group of students in the middle with open minds.

    I have now used this heuristic repeatedly on college campuses, and with considerable success. The lesson, I believe, is not to try to persuade irrational anti-Israel extremists, but rather, to use their extremism - which often includes anti-American and anti-Western extremism - against them and in favor of a reasonable and centrist pro-Israel position.

    The power of truth

    The reality is that there are many open-minded people, even in Europe and on university campuses. Their voices are often drowned out by the much more vocal anti-Israel extremists.     I saw this last year when I was invited to Norway by a Christian Zionist group. The group offered me, as a speaker, to the law faculties of Norway’s three major universities. All three universities refused to invite me to speak, even though my appearance would cost them nothing. One of them said I would be invited, but only if I did not speak about Israel.
    When students at the universities heard of the faculties’ refusal to invite me, the students themselves asked me to appear. I spoke to packed houses at all three universities, and was told afterwards that I had changed the minds of many students who had never before heard the centrist kind of liberal case for Israel.
    I will not give up despite, perhaps because of, the increasingly vocal hatred directed against Israel. It is imperative to continue to appeal to the open minds of rational people who want to hear all sides of this complex and nuanced issue. In the end, I have confidence that the power of truth will overcome the lies of anti-Israel extremists. If we believe in the marketplace of ideas, we must persist in our efforts. The conversion of Kasim Hafeez from an irrational anti-Semite to a thoughtful Zionist should encourage us to keep telling the truth.
    The passage which I have bolded out gives a picture about the sort of people that stand behind the IPSC campaign.


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    #375
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    The Israeli wrote: »
    An interesting article that demonstrates why the distinct pro - Palestinian side is working against peace.
    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4227866,00.html


    ...the pro-torture nut who bullied Finklestein out of tenureship and may yet single-handedly wear out the term "anti-semite" through overuse. It has to be said, he's a good contrast to the IPSC.


  • Options
    #376
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    The Israeli wrote: »
    An interesting article that demonstrates why the distinct pro - Palestinian side is working against peace.
    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4227866,00.html

    The passage which I have bolded out gives a picture about the sort of people that stand behind the IPSC campaign.


    Really......you'll be able to tell me where a similar event occured involving the IPSC and produce a recording of it held on a reliable third party site then.

    Otherwise I'd say that being unable to make a case yourself, you're just chucking in others opinions to act as both shield and filler.


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    #377
    czx
    Registered Users Posts: 544 ✭✭✭czx


    Nodin wrote: »
    Right then - I stated -



    Please spell out in detail specifially how your answer just given relates to the above.


    If you can't figure it out then I don't want to waste anymore time here.


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    #378
    The Israeli
    Registered Users Posts: 413 ✭✭The Israeli


    Nodin wrote: »
    Really......you'll be able to tell me where a similar event occured involving the IPSC and produce a recording of it held on a reliable third party site then.

    Otherwise I'd say that being unable to make a case yourself, you're just chucking in others opinions to act as both shield and filler.

    I can't link IPSC to events like that yet, but I can logically assume that the same activists that visit events like that in unis take part in IPSC as well.
    The real reason for bring that up was to give a picture about large group pf the pro - palestinian activists.

    You are talking nonsense. I have given my opinion many times in this thread, the one from last week and in many others.
    Excuse me that I don't want to repeat the same things over and over every 3 page.


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    #379
    VALIS
    Registered Users Posts: 146 ✭✭VALIS


    The Israeli wrote: »
    I can't link IPSC to events like that yet, but I can logically assume that the same activists that visit events like that in unis take part in IPSC as well.
    The real reason for bring that up was to give a picture about large group pf the pro - palestinian activists.

    You are talking nonsense. I have given my opinion many times in this thread, the one from last week and in many others.
    Excuse me that I don't want to repeat the same things over and over every 3 page.

    Perhaps you might actually contact the IPSC rather than making baseless assertions?


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    #380
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    The Israeli wrote: »
    I can't link IPSC to events like that yet, but I can logically assume that the same activists that visit events like that in unis take part in IPSC as well.
    The real reason for bring that up was to give a picture about large group pf the pro - palestinian activists..

    So you're making a definitive statement based soley on the anecdotal evidence of a man notorious for his fanatical and unreasonable attacks on critics of Israel.
    The Israeli wrote: »
    You are talking nonsense. I have given my opinion many times in this thread, the one from last week and in many others.
    Excuse me that I don't want to repeat the same things over and over every 3 page.

    ....yet you want to get your speak in by throwing in c&p's of others opinions.


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    #381
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    The Israeli wrote: »
    I can't link IPSC to events like that yet, but I can logically assume that the same activists that visit events like that in unis take part in IPSC as well.

    Even if true (and that is a pretty big if, considering the author), it has nothing to do with the IPSC, and to be frank your accusations are rather slimy and perfect example of "venom", that so many pro-Israel poster have attributed to others (all the while not providing any proof of it).

    Your post stinks of utter desperation, where unable to prove the existence of any such "venom", you present an opinion piece, that even if true does not relate to the group we are discussing. Utterly pathetic and desperate smear attempt imho.


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    #382
    The Israeli
    Registered Users Posts: 413 ✭✭The Israeli


    Before I wrote the last line, I thought: I have no proof, but let's write my personal opinion, because it makes sense.

    BEFORE I wrote the last line, I read and prepared this article.
    It's a great article, guys.
    This article talks about the great problem about many of the pro - Palestinians - they have no program for peace and they spread hatred.

    THAT is the true story. In my opinion, that is the story of many IPSC activists too, but I can't prove it, as i said. However, it's not important, because what is important - the extremism towards Israel and the obstacles that some of the pro Palestinians generate by objecting to possible peace solution.

    wes, I'm very much aware of what I'm saying and thinking. I'm not desperate by a bit. You are the one who recycle all the time.


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    #383
    Wild Bill
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    czx wrote: »
    If you can't figure it out then I don't want to waste anymore time here.

    Best news I heard all night! :D

    So...any comments on the cultural boycott? As I said, it seems to be on a roll :cool:


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    #384
    humanji
    Registered Users Posts: 19,976 ✭✭✭✭humanji


    CZX can take a day off to contemplate the concept of not posting in this thread, and for everyone else, read the opening post and comment on that topic and that topic only.


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    #385
    Dwellingdweller
    Closed Accounts Posts: 825 ✭✭✭Dwellingdweller


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    Would it be any worse than the terrorist state next door controlled by extreme religious nutjobs like Netanyahu, who believe they have a right to bulldoze people's homes and throw them out on the street because an ancient book tells them they rightfully own the land those people are living on?

    I'd argue that it would be a lot less dangerous actually, since it wouldn't have millions of dollars in weapons money poured into it annually by the "freedom loving" United States of America...

    This.


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    #386
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    The Israeli wrote: »
    wes, I'm very much aware of what I'm saying and thinking. I'm not desperate by a bit. You are the one who recycle all the time.

    Posting an opinion piece, that has nothing to do with the group we are discussing, and then trying to smear them is very much desperate. You can't prove a thing, and yet you make claims about hatred, and yet again you continue your baseless smearing. Basically, you have come to a conclusion, without a single shred of evidence to back it up with. IMHO, that is pretty damn desperate, you can't prove anything, but your still going to continue with your constant baseless smears.

    The simple matter, is that any opposition to Israel's colonial project, is met with a nasty smears, lies and baseless accusation, where no proof is provided (26 pages and counting), and your posts are a perfect example of this. You can't prove anything, but claim your telling the "truth" in anyways. All, I see is very poor and transparent attempt to smear people, and nothing more.


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    #387
    Wild Bill
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    Lmao!

    Just read the earlier thread and see Israeli is citing Kevin Myers in defense of Zionist murder! :pac:

    Ireland's foremost Colonel Blimp!

    (He dislikes immigration and is so far to the extreme right he's almost completed the roundabout).

    Any port in a storm, eh? :rolleyes:

    In he old days Israel was supported by liberals and socialists; now they must depend on raving looney Rapturist American "Christians" and National Front types.

    Any comments on the ever growing cultural boycott btw?

    On ABC the pro-boycott voices were mainly Israelis. I guess those Israelis are not part of the internet troll-gang orchestrated by the IDF :cool:


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    #388
    The Israeli
    Registered Users Posts: 413 ✭✭The Israeli


    wes wrote: »
    Posting an opinion piece, that has nothing to do with the group we are discussing, and then trying to smear them is very much desperate. You can't prove a thing, and yet you make claims about hatred, and yet again you continue your baseless smearing. Basically, you have come to a conclusion, without a single shred of evidence to back it up with. IMHO, that is pretty damn desperate, you can't prove anything, but your still going to continue with your constant baseless smears.

    wes, I have been scanning IPSC website and couldn't find any peace resolution.
    Can you address me to it?


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    #389
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    The Israeli wrote: »
    wes, I have been scanning IPSC website and couldn't find any peace resolution.

    Can you address me to it?

    Took me less than a 10 seconds to find it:

    From http://www.ipsc.ie/about/aims
    To promote engagement by the Irish Government, the political institutions in the North and the European Union for a just and equitable settlement based on the full and unequivocal implementation of international law.

    You really didn't look very hard.........


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    #390
    Wild Bill
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    Also, is it not a bit arrogant to call oneself THE Israeli?

    If I used the handle - The Irishman - it would be regarded as ridiculous. Hardly any two Irish people agree on anything.

    In Ireland we even have some misguided souls who oppose the cultural boycott of Israel.

    I think it was Paul Brady who refused a gig in the Zionist Entity. I'll Google it and get back to you.


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    #391
    The Israeli
    Registered Users Posts: 413 ✭✭The Israeli


    wes wrote: »
    Took me less than a 10 seconds to find it:

    From http://www.ipsc.ie/about/aims


    You really didn't look very hard.........

    Nope, it's not that.. They have masses of materials against Israel, but not a single possible solution. I thought that an organization serious like that, might think of some...

    Why am I saying that.. I can't find the video of that senior official of one of the campaigns but he states that even if they declared for the recognition of Israel, it would have seriously divided the movement. LOL

    But I wouldn't mind seeing their solution, anyway.


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