Irish Palestine Solidarity Campaign

Wild Bill

lividduck wrote: »

Wrong according to the UN the blockade of gaza is legal.

No. Some report said that; it was not endorsed in any way by either the Security Council or the General Assembly.


The blockade is a Crime against Humanity.

The Israeli

Wild Bill wrote: »

No. Some report said that; it was not endorsed in any way by either the Security Council or the General Assembly.


The blockade is a Crime against Humanity.

crime against humanity -



noun a crime or series of crimes, such as genocide, directed against a large group because of race, religion, country of origin, or other reason unconnected with any individual's responsibility for having committed a criminal act.


1) genocide - is there? This blockade is causing to a genocide? mmmm ah?
2.a) directed against a large group because of race? Nope. We don't have problems with the Israeli arabs, egyptian, Jordanian, Pakistani end etc.
b) religion? Nope. We don't have problems with the Israeli muslims, egyptian, Jordanian, Pakistani end etc.
c) country of origin - the strip of Gaza is ruled by Hamas which is a terror organization, however the blockage doesn't commit genocide.
d) individuals - yes, we fight the Hamas fighters. Are they "unconnected with any individual's responsibility for having committed a criminal act. " Oh yes, they are the opposite.

Lets see other definitions: Is there hunger in Gaza? nope. Is Israel allowing inside basic food and medicines? Oh yes dozens of tons each week and also materials for construction.
Is Israel supplying electricity to Gaza? Yes

Is the border with Egypt now open and Gazans can supply themselves with all the life necessities? YES! yes it's open.

Is the blockade is legal by the international community? YES again. woo hoo.

Why is there a blockade? To prevent (actually reduce) supplying Gaza with weapons coming from sources like Syria and Iran. Why? because Hamas (and the islamic jihad and more) is a recognized terror organization who deliberately fights the Israeli civil population.

Sappa

Is Israel carrying out assasination`s on foreign soil of nuclear scientists in Iran YES.
Is Israel destroying the lives of ordinary Palestinians by delaying them at check points for 5 hours disrupting any chance of work YES.

tayto lover

Sappa wrote: »

Is Israel carrying out assasination`s on foreign soil of nuclear scientists in Iran YES.
Is Israel destroying the lives of ordinary Palestinians by delaying them at check points for 5 hours disrupting any chance of work YES.

Are they using illegal Irish passports to enable murderers evade justice ? Yes.

orlao

That Kevin Myers article says at the bottom it was originally in the Irish Independent, does anyone know was it actually in that 'newspaper' The first paragraph of the article is really incredible, he actually considers the cancellation of Dervish's tour to be more important than Sean Brady's failure to act 40 years ago which meant that children continued to be abused for many years afterwards. I don't take Kevin Myers seriously but I cannot believe he could be that irrational.

Wild Bill

Israeli:

1) genocide - is there? This blockade is causing to a genocide? mmmm ah?

Yes; children are dying in Gaza as a consequence of the blockade. So, YES to the genocide charge.

2.a) directed against a large group because of race? Nope. We don't have problems with the Israeli arabs, egyptian, Jordanian, Pakistani end etc.

Yes, they are called Palestinians. Israel is guilty on this count.

b) religion? Nope. We don't have problems with the Israeli muslims, egyptian, Jordanian, Pakistani end etc.

Israel nakedly discriminates in favour of Jews. Guilty.

c) country of origin - the strip of Gaza is ruled by Hamas which is a terror organization, however the blockage doesn't commit genocide.

See above.

d) individuals - yes, we fight the Hamas fighters. Are they "unconnected with any individual's responsibility for having committed a criminal act. " Oh yes, they are the opposite.

Children regularly slaughtered by the IDF. Guilty.

Lets see other definitions: Is there hunger in Gaza? nope.

Yes.

also materials for construction.

Recently?

Is the border with Egypt now open and Gazans can supply themselves with all the life necessities? YES! yes it's open.

By the Egyptians after the revolution and against the wishes of Israel! :rolleyes:

Is the blockade is legal by the international community? YES again. woo hoo.

Actually No. it's not woo hoo.

because Hamas (and the islamic jihad and more) is a recognized terror organization who deliberately fights the Israeli civil population.

It is claimed to be by Israel, the US and it's European puppets; Zionist lobby controls US foreign policy and the EU falls into line.

It is NOT "recognized" as anything other than a legitimately elected power in Gaza by most of the world.

On the other hand repeated votes in the General Assembly tell us how most of the world regards Israel. :cool:

enfant terrible

Sappa wrote: »

Israel seem to be the most hated nation on earth,they are disliked nearly ever where I travel.
I have found them one on one to be actually ok but when you get them in a small group together they are just so arrogant and disrespectful to the local people.
I witnessed this in Africa,south east Asia and India,they just want to take over,drop there litter and expect others to wait on them hand and foot.

You're lucky your talking about Israelis here, if you said that about any other group of people on boards.ie you'd be in trouble.

lividduck

Zebra3 wrote: »

It's not a conflict, it's an occupation.

So firing 8,000 rockets is ok, suicide bombings are legitimate?

fasttalkerchat

lividduck wrote: »

So firing 8,000 rockets is ok, suicide bombings are legitimate?

Resistance to an occupation. If I broke into your house would you use only non-violent resistance and protest?

Firing rockets is counter productive in terms of international opinion and achieves nothing other than to release anger. I don't think anyone here is going to say that rockets and suicide bombs on civilians are fair game.

Wild Bill

lividduck wrote: »

So firing 8,000 rockets is ok, suicide bombings are legitimate?

Resisting occupation and ethnic cleansing is legitimate, so yes.

lividduck

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Resistance to an occupation. If I broke into your house would you use only non-violent resistance and protest?

Firing rockets is counter productive in terms of international opinion and achieves nothing other than to release anger. I don't think anyone here is going to say that rockets and suicide bombs on civilians are fair game.

I dont see you condeming it.

Wild Bill

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

I don't think anyone here is going to say that rockets and suicide bombs on civilians are fair game.

Could settlers on ethnically cleansed land be regarded as civilians in the normal sense?

The West openly allows itself a pass when it "collaterally" kills civilians in a war; it will "target" civilians who are sheltering "terrorists".

So based on the behaviour of the West in Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, Lebanon, Gaza (and more) in the past 10 years it is very difficult to argue that any resistance actions are immoral.

We can't have one standard for us and another for "them".

Israel, for example, engages in and justifies "collective punishment". That's shaky ground to be whinging about suicide bombers from.

Wild Bill

enfant terrible wrote: »

You're lucky your talking about Israelis here, if you said that about any other group of people on boards.ie you'd be in trouble.

Far from it. You should read some of the racist twaddle that passes as comment on China, for example.

But the conflation (when it suits) and separation (when it suits) of Jew and Israel is part of the propaganda package of the Zionist.

Clearly the "Israelis" are not a single group; there are a million Palestinians who are also Israelis, however much they might wish not to be.

lividduck

Wild Bill wrote: »

Far from it. You should read some of the racist twaddle that passes as comment on China, for example.

But the conflation (when it suits) and separation (when it suits) of Jew and Israel is part of the propaganda package of the Zionist.

Clearly the "Israelis" are not a single group; there are a million Palestinians who are also Israelis, however much they might wish not to be.

Utter rubbish, Are you seriously attempting to argue that all Jews are Israeli? That the actions of Israel represent the wishes of all Jews?
The actions of Israel are not even always supported by all Jews in Israel, which if you ever bothered to do any research you would know.
BTW I find your assertion that sucide bombing innocent civillians in Israel is legitimate!

The Israeli

Wild Bill wrote: »

Israeli:



1) Yes; children are dying in Gaza as a consequence of the blockade. So, YES to the genocide charge.



2) Yes, they are called Palestinians. Israel is guilty on this count.



3) Israel nakedly discriminates in favour of Jews. Guilty.



4) See above.



5) Children regularly slaughtered by the IDF. Guilty.



6) Yes.


7) Recently?




8) By the Egyptians after the revolution and against the wishes of Israel! :rolleyes:



9) Actually No. it's not woo hoo.



10) It is claimed to be by Israel, the US and it's European puppets; Zionist lobby controls US foreign policy and the EU falls into line.

It is NOT "recognized" as anything other than a legitimately elected power in Gaza by most of the world.

On the other hand repeated votes in the General Assembly tell us how most of the world regards Israel. :cool:

1) prove a link to the blockade, or logically explain.

2) How?

3) How?

5) Regularly? IDF goes to Gaza and fires at children for what? Prove me that IDF goes to Gaza in order to kill civilians and I will stand you wrong.

6) Show me one proof that links the blockade to hunger in Gaza.

7) all the time.

8) so there is no blockade after all?

9) Well, actually yes, and I can prove it.

10) I guess that the thousands of rockets flying at Israeli cities launch themselves, and the dead and wounded Fatah soldiers and officials in Gaza at the beginning when the Hamas took over shot themselves - very legally.

You are talking out of emotions and miss the part of Hamas and Islamic Jihad (and smaller groups) attack Israeli citizens, you miss the part in which Hamas hides and fires from citizen's homes, stores weapons in hospitals and mosques, fires rockets on CIVILIANS while IDF fires at Hamas officials alone and because of their very high proximity due to the mentioned above civilians get hurt.
Hamas can fight in open spaces outside the civilian population but chooses to fight amongst because they know that it gives them protection, because IDF avoids in many times attacking targets that can jeopardize civilians.

I have no doubt that you hate Israel and Jews but you will not admit on the second.
That is the reason why you so bravely support a terror organization which is not supported by many Israeli opposers here.

The Israeli

Sappa wrote: »

Is Israel carrying out assasination`s on foreign soil of nuclear scientists in Iran YES.

Yes, many people don't think that this is right.
However, is the nuclear committee stated that there are great suspicious that Iran is developing nuclear weapons for militarily purposes? Yes

It's very simple math:
The lives of a few key role people vs. lifes of thousands probably in case there will be war with Iran.

These actions slow down the Iranian program and give time for sanctions to work. After all - sanctions are all what the Western countries are applying right now before the next step if needed - a war.

You may also want to prove the Israel is behind them, which hasn't been proved, but I believe it is. Maybe US and some western allies too. Maybe not. You just state it as a fact, but actually it's not

Is Israel destroying the lives of ordinary Palestinians by delaying them at check points for 5 hours disrupting any chance of work YES.

Do "ordinary" Palestinians occasionally bomb check points, stub soldiers, and try to commit terror attacks in Israel?
How do you tell ordinary from not ordinary when even some women that claim to be pregnant actually carry explosive belts? I have uploaded a video of that earlier.

5 hours? sometimes just minutes.

czx

Wild Bill wrote: »

Resisting occupation and ethnic cleansing is legitimate, so yes.

Suicide bombings on civilians are legitimate. Are you a member of the IPSC?

Nodin

lividduck wrote: »

Utter rubbish, Are you seriously attempting to argue that all Jews are Israeli? That the actions of Israel represent the wishes of all Jews? ...........

It reads to me as if he's stating that the 'hawks' or right wing pro-Israel lobby often wish to claim that Israel and Jews are synonymous, rather than state it as a fact.

Nodin

czx wrote: »

Suicide bombings on civilians are legitimate. Are you a member of the IPSC?

There you are. Would you mind getting back to me on our earlier exchange....
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=78594774&postcount=193
Thanks.

VALIS

The Israeli wrote: »

Yes, many people don't think that this is right.
However, is the nuclear committee stated that there are great suspicious that Iran is developing nuclear weapons for militarily purposes? Yes

It's very simple math:
The lives of a few key role people vs. lifes of thousands probably in case there will be war with Iran.

These actions slow down the Iranian program and give time for sanctions to work. After all - sanctions are all what the Western countries are applying right now before the next step if needed - a war.

You may also want to prove the Israel is behind them, which hasn't been proved, but I believe it is. Maybe US and some western allies too. Maybe not. You just state it as a fact, but actually it's not




Do "ordinary" Palestinians occasionally bomb check points, stub soldiers, and try to commit terror attacks in Israel?
How do you tell ordinary from not ordinary when even some women that claim to be pregnant actually carry explosive belts? I have uploaded a video of that earlier.

5 hours? sometimes just minutes.

Israel is in possession of nuclear weapons (and is undeclared) and has proven that it can't be trusted with weapons with indiscrimate effects--Israel is an intimidating military figure and its policies are conducive to the kind of escalation and proliferation we're witnessing in the middle-east.

By your logic, are key Israeli figures in politics or science obliquely or directly related to defence fair game for foreign assassins?

Nodin

The Israeli wrote: »

....
Do "ordinary" Palestinians occasionally bomb check points, stub soldiers, and try to commit terror attacks in Israel?
How do you tell ordinary from not ordinary when even some women that claim to be pregnant actually carry explosive belts? I have uploaded a video of that earlier.

5 hours? sometimes just minutes.

Israel occupies the Territories and begins its illegal colonisation.
Israel sets up checkpoints to facilitate its control of the area and protect its colonies.
Palestinians occassionally attack checkpoints.
Israel claims checkpoints nessecary because of Palestinian violence.

What Israel does within its own legal borders is a different matter.

As regards the attitude displayed at the checkpoints....a small sample from the archives...from the brutal to the surreal.

More than 60 Palestinian women have given birth at Israeli checkpoints since 2000 and 36 of their babies have died as a result, says a UN report.
Prepared by the High Commissioner for Human Rights, it examines the impact of the checkpoints on pregnant women.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4274400.stm

The Israeli military is investigating a video in which a Palestinian detainee appears to be humiliated by a group of Israeli soldiers.
The video, broadcast by Israeli TV after being posted on YouTube, shows a blindfolded man kneeling near a barrier being forced to repeat Hebrew phrases. Some refer to the elite Golani infantry brigade. Others are of a sexual nature.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7715861.stm

A Palestinian man queuing to pass an Israeli checkpoint was forced by soldiers to perform an impromptu violin recital, a human rights group says.
The group's footage of the incident shows the man playing to an audience of border guards and waiting Palestinians.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4043299.stm

"With every Arab I see, I see Hani in my mind. In one shift, there were as many as 70 or 80 people whom I delayed. I stood them in a line and decided that they would stay with me for the whole 12- to 14-hour shift, in the sun, in the heat.

http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/magazine/my-god-what-did-we-do-1.232798

The Israeli

Nodin wrote: »

Israel occupies the Territories and begins its illegal colonisation.
Israel sets up checkpoints to facilitate its control of the area and protect its colonies.
Palestinians occassionally attack checkpoints.
Israel claims checkpoints nessecary because of Palestinian violence.

What Israel does within its own legal borders is a different matter.

As regards the attitude displayed at the checkpoints....a small sample from the archives...from the brutal to the surreal.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4274400.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7715861.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4043299.stm

http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/magazine/my-god-what-did-we-do-1.232798

Aren't you never tired of it?
I think that you can predict what I'm going to say cause I have said it millions of times.
Let's say that the Palestinians suffer, we suffer, the Palestinian terrorists try to kill, we try to defend ourselves, many Palestinians get treated at Israeli hospitals, but still some of them die because of checkpoints that are made to defend Israel against those who try to kill us, and we have them in order to let other Palestinians move from place to place, and bla bla bla..

I have explained my view, the terrorists view, normal Palestinians views, normal israelis views, what goes inside IDF, what are the solutions and obstacles and much more.

And you come and every few pages "reset" the discussion. It's easy because new people are constantly flowing in, but it's extremely boring and tiring.

I can link this message again:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=78435519&postcount=56

Watch (again) the third video of a Palestinian "pregnant woman". She is not the only case.

Wild Bill

lividduck wrote: »

Utter rubbish, Are you seriously attempting to argue that all Jews are Israeli? That the actions of Israel represent the wishes of all Jews?

As I clearly never said any such thing your attack on your own straw man is deemed ridiculous :rolleyes:

Nodin

The Israeli wrote: »

Aren't you never tired of it?.

I'd imagine the population subjected to the tender mercies of the IDF are rather more so.

The Israeli wrote: »

I think that you can predict what I'm going to say cause I have said it millions of times..

'I condemn the settlements...................but...'

When Israel is on its own side of its borders, it can complain,

Wild Bill

The Israeli wrote: »

I have no doubt that you hate Israel and Jews but you will not admit on the second.

Zzzzz................

OK.

1)The blockade is illegal, it is a Crime against Humanity.

2)Hamas was democratically elected

3)A country (Israel) that practices ethnic cleansing, collective punishment and putting settlements on occupied land has no moral or legal defence against the resistance; suicide bombs are a weapon like any other.

4)I suggest the reason you try to defend the indefensible is that you secretly detest Arabs and Muslims but won't admit it. (The IDF are known to describe Palestinians as "cockroaches")

5)My only interest in Israel (or the Palestinians for that matter) is that the savagery perpetrated by the former by the latter is likely to lead - through the Zionist grip on America - to WW3.

If the Israelis want to provoke another Holocaust - I don't really care. But I don't especially want to get embroiled in a Third World War as "the West" tries to save them.

What we should do is blockade ALL of Palestine/Israel; complete ban on the export/export of anything to the area; arms, fuel, food - everything - until they come to their senses.

We need to bring some thinking outside the box to bear on this problem :cool:

hatrickpatrick

The_Israeli:
I've given up hope of this thread returning to the topic so I'll chip in here:

By the way, to those who are expressing adamantly pro Israel views here, this is the simple reason I support the Palestinians:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8303355.stm

Israeli authorities have demolished two Palestinian-owned structures in East Jerusalem, in defiance of international calls to stop such actions.
Palestinian reports say a family of five was forcibly evicted from their home in the Beit Hanina district before the building was demolished.
Israeli bulldozers then destroyed the foundations of another building nearby.
UN officials say such demolitions violate international law and raise serious humanitarian concerns.
Israel says buildings subject to demolition orders have been built without permits.
Palestinians say it is virtually impossible to obtain the necessary approval from Israel's municipal authorities in Jerusalem.
The Israeli human rights group B'Tselem , says the authorities have demolished about 420 Palestinian-owned houses in East Jerusalem since 2004 saying they were built without permits.
Israel occupied the territory in the 1967 war and annexed it soon afterwards in a move that has not been recognised internationally.

The way I see it, it's very, very simple.
Israel does not own a centimetre of that land. It was annexed illegally by force - this is not acceptable for a "civilized democracy". The UN refused to acknowledge their sovereignty over it and so did most of the international community. So it's not even a question of opposing demolition - it's the part about "permits". As the Israeli government does not have sovereignty or jurisdiction over this region, they have no authority to issue or deny permits, and any permits they do issue are totally meaningless. Whether or not they have the brute force ability to bomb the f*ck out of anyone who disobeys is irrelevant, as this is not how a "democracy" behaves.

They have no right to do anything whatsoever in East Jerusalem, or in the West Bank. The minute they return this land to the sovereignty of the people who actually live there (including everyone who has been ofrced out by these demolitions over the last 50 years), I will have no further complaint to make about Israel.
My support of the IPSC has nothing whatsoever to do with anti semitism, it has nothing to do with "serial protesting", it has nothing to do with left / right politics and it has nothing to do with religion / Islam.

It's very simply about theft. Private property is private property, the fact that you have a gun to point at its owner doesn't give you any more right to STEAL it.

Anyone from the pro Israel side feel like responding to this? If you have a genuine reason why my viewpoint is wrong and I should abandon it, go ahead. I'm listening. Nobody has ever shown me a decent argument for this other than the deranged "might is right, if we can beat you in battle we can do whatever the f*ck we want", which I categorically do not accept. We are not living in the stone age - if Israel as a nation wants to pursue that line, then it must abandon its claim to be a "western democracy".
It's one or the other. They are mutually exclusive.

Any response?

Wild Bill

czx wrote: »

Suicide bombings on civilians are legitimate. Are you a member of the IPSC?

Of course; they are as legitimate as any other weapon.

I am absolutely NOT a member of the IPSC - don't care enough, frankly.

lividduck

Wild Bill wrote: »

Of course; they are as legitimate as any other weapon.

I am absolutely NOT a member of the IPSC - don't care enough, frankly.

Anyone who would seek to legitimise the use of suicide bombers is a disgrace to humanity and has no place in a civilized debate.

Wild Bill

VALIS wrote: »

By your logic, are key Israeli figures in politics or science obliquely or directly related to defence fair game for foreign assassins?

Unfortunately, the defenders of Zionism don't do logic. (See the attempt to class certain types of bomb carrier as less legitimate than others!)

By the practice and logic of Zionists when they claim to be defending Israel you can justify just about anything!

Including

1) War crimes
2) Ethnic cleansing and land-grabbing
3) Mass murder
4) Murdering civilians abroad
5) Invading and occupying other countries
6) Obtaining and maintaining a nuclear arsenal
7) Institutionalized racial/religious discrimination
8) Collective punishment

I'm sure I've forgotten some of the activities and policies of our Zionist friends, but this gives a flavour of what they stand for.

Wild Bill

lividduck wrote: »

Anyone who would seek to legitimise the use of suicide bombers is a disgrace to humanity and has no place in a civilized debate.

Anyone who would seek to find a moral difference between suicide bombing and dropping bombs from a B52 on towns full of civilians is a disgrace to the human intellect. :rolleyes:

(And the irony of folk defending Zionism calling others a "disgrace to humanity" is rich indeed!)