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Provincial Schools thread 2012-2013 *MOD WARNING POST 1*
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ormond lad wrote: »Dont think they will. Its a very strong schools side this year totally backboned by a Leinster side that totally dominated the schools interpros.
Delighted the schools are not in the FIRA. The youths side should never have been out of the FIRA in the first place.
You are delighted the schools team are not in the FIRA because you think they are holding back the chances of players coming thru the youths game. Right?0 -
thetruth_time wrote: »Why are you "delighted" the schools are not in fira? Very biased opinion I think.
The youths were originally in the FIRA competition. The schools competed in the 5 nations tournament. The competition the schools competed in was stopped for some reason and it was decided that the schools should compete instead of the youths.I'd imagine it's because the Youths would probably benefit more from the exposure and experience.
Youths would benefit more from the exposure and experience that they dont get from most club games.0 -
ormond lad wrote: »
The youths were originally in the FIRA competition. The schools competed in the 5 nations tournament. The competition the schools competed in was stopped for some reason and it was decided that the schools should compete instead of the youths.
Youths would benefit more from the exposure and experience that they dont get from most club games.[
We should have our best team in the competition, not often we as a nation we get an opportunity to win a European comp!
Lets remember also we're talking about an Irish youths team that has a number of 'Exiles' who may never play for Ireland again and just go back to there clubs in the UK!!!(this has happened many times in the past)
I think it's about time the irfu went away from u18 clubs & schools and just have an Ireland u18 team. That way the better club players would break into the side and we would be stronger at u18 level as a result!0 -
thetruth_time wrote: »ormond lad wrote: »
The youths were originally in the FIRA competition. The schools competed in the 5 nations tournament. The competition the schools competed in was stopped for some reason and it was decided that the schools should compete instead of the youths.
Youths would benefit more from the exposure and experience that they dont get from most club games.[
We should have our best team in the competition, not often we as a nation we get an opportunity to win a European comp!
Lets remember also we're talking about an Irish youths team that has a number of 'Exiles' who may never play for Ireland again and just go back to there clubs in the UK!!!(this has happened many times in the past)
I think it's about time the irfu went away from u18 clubs & schools and just have an Ireland u18 team. That way the better club players would break into the side and we would be stronger at u18 level as a result!
It would be a far better idea to have the one side, but the club lobby would be against it as they'd moan that too few youths players were in the team, the odds are stacked against clubs and of course the fact that a considerable amount of teams would be solely composed of schools players.0 -
Maybe we should but the schools are not the be all and end all.thetruth_time wrote: »
We should have our best team in the competition, not often we as a nation we get an opportunity to win a European comp!ormond lad wrote: »
The youths were originally in the FIRA competition. The schools competed in the 5 nations tournament. The competition the schools competed in was stopped for some reason and it was decided that the schools should compete instead of the youths.
Youths would benefit more from the exposure and experience that they dont get from most club games.
Lets remember also we're talking about an Irish youths team that has a number of 'Exiles' who may never play for Ireland again and just go back to there clubs in the UK!!!(this has happened many times in the past)
I think it's about time the irfu went away from u18 clubs & schools and just have an Ireland u18 team. That way the better club players would break into the side and we would be stronger at u18 level as a result!
If it wasnt for the exiles set up the likes of kieran marmion, and many others would not get in to the irish set up at all.
Maybe we should eventually have a combined side but when will that happen and who is brave enough to try implement that?0 -
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ormond lad wrote: »Maybe we should but the schools are not the be all and end all.
If it wasnt for the exiles set up the likes of kieran marmion, and many others would not get in to the irish set up at all.
Maybe we should eventually have a combined side but when will that happen and who is brave enough to try implement that?
It's a no brainer if you ask me, shouldn't take anyone being brave just common sense!!
Why not have an u18 B side for those club and schools players that don't make the side and give them a name similar to the wolfhounds and they could play the two international test matches vs England & France that the schools have this year!
And have our Strongest team in fira.0 -
Dont think so. Clubs dont moan about their being combined sides at 19s. Their used to be separate teams at 19s but there isnt now. Youths looked for combined sides at 19s as much as schools did so why would youths complain about a combined side at 18s.Gordon Gecko wrote: »It would be a far better idea to have the one side, but the club lobby would be against it as they'd moan that too few youths players were in the team, the odds are stacked against clubs and of course the fact that a considerable amount of teams would be solely composed of schools players.
Separate sides at 18s gets more kids playing interpro rugby and a chance to get noticed
Wouldnt agree that a "considerable amount of teams would be solely composed of schools players".
Odds are stacked against club players in many ways but they are still making sides in bigger numbers year on year. Leinsters 2 19s sides this year ratio of schools to clubs was 2:1 in favour of schools while in the past it was about 5:1.0 -
I'd check your facts there before posting if I were you. The leinster u19 blue side which is the strongest of the sides had 14 schools players starting with only Peter Dooley from Birr starting. The whites had some more youths players.ormond lad wrote: »Dont think so. Clubs dont moan about their being combined sides at 19s. Their used to be separate teams at 19s but there isnt now. Youths looked for combined sides at 19s as much as schools did so why would youths complain about a combined side at 18s.
Separate sides at 18s gets more kids playing interpro rugby and a chance to get noticed
Wouldnt agree that a "considerable amount of teams would be solely composed of schools players".
Odds are stacked against club players in many ways but they are still making sides in bigger numbers year on year. Leinsters 2 19s sides this year ratio of schools to clubs was 2:1 in favour of schools while in the past it was about 5:1.0 -
I was looking at the overall squads, including subs, and i did check my facts. Adam Byrne was also starting. Down as UCD but is a youth from Naas. There was also a handful of subs each game from youths clubsthetruth_time wrote: »I'd check your facts there before posting if I were you. The leinster u19 blue side which is the strongest of the sides had 14 schools players starting with only Peter Dooley from Birr starting. The whites had some more youths players.0 -
Was at the u19 interpro finals this year and munster had 2 club players out of a squad of 26 and leinster blues had 3 of 26 so where are you getting your 2:1 ratio from?ormond lad wrote: »I was looking at the overall squads, including subs, and i did check my facts. Adam Byrne was also starting. Down as UCD but is a youth from Naas. There was also a handful of subs each game from youths clubs0 -
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Some very interesting posts there. I personally do not like it when the clubs v schools becomes a "them and us" situation. I like it even less when people always for some reason keep mentioning the Exiles in a way that makes it even more a "them and us" scenario. Poor form.
The whole idea, is it not, is to get as many Irish qualified players into our system as possible? The real aim should be to get to U20 with the best possible group of players? This particular year group is very exciting in my opinion and you should all be focusing on that.
Last years irish club squad in the same game had Fergal Cleary at 10 and Sean O'Hagan at 12, personally I thought that they were the stand out backs for each team today, both scored loads for both teams. The other centre from last years club side Adam Byrne played his second Rabo game the night before for the Leinser senior team. The Clubs are bringing good players through..... very good players, more Sean O'Briens, Shane Horgans, Stephen Ferris etc....... The Exiles are starting to contribute players like Kieran Marmion, Conor Joyce, Sean Dougal, the Ruddock Brosl and dare I say it Mike McCarthy who has just left for Leinster came via the Exile system (lots of others that i could mention without going back years for other players).
The schools will always be stronger at U18 level, they get the best players and indeed take the best youths like young Cleary if they can't get them in the first place. This school side are not just very good, they play like a club side due to the fact that most of them are Leinster players! They know each other inside out. They are a VERY good school side, but do not fool yourself into thinking that the clubs are not a good side, they are also a very good side and could surprise a few people. They lost 3 players to sickness before today's game and strangely took some of their best players off (unlike the schools) to give game time to lots of players today, there was not that much in it at half time. The school team is a great team but for me the prize should be an U20 World Cup in two years time, not a FIRA and to do that you need to keep lots in the system, The majority of them will be from that schools team, but a few of the clubs team can also go on to great things. I hope that they do.0 -
I think its just disappointing that the Schools won't get to play the FIRA comp this year, it looks like a particularly good group.0
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Schools will nearly always be stronger but the youths are getting stronger year on year and will surprise many.Some very interesting posts there. I personally do not like it when the clubs v schools becomes a "them and us" situation. I like it even less when people always for some reason keep mentioning the Exiles in a way that makes it even more a "them and us" scenario. Poor form.
The whole idea, is it not, is to get as many Irish qualified players into our system as possible? The real aim should be to get to U20 with the best possible group of players? This particular year group is very exciting in my opinion and you should all be focusing on that.
Last years irish club squad in the same game had Fergal Cleary at 10 and Sean O'Hagan at 12, personally I thought that they were the stand out backs for each team today, both scored loads for both teams. The other centre from last years club side Adam Byrne played his second Rabo game the night before for the Leinser senior team. The Clubs are bringing good players through..... very good players, more Sean O'Briens, Shane Horgans, Stephen Ferris etc....... The Exiles are starting to contribute players like Kieran Marmion, Conor Joyce, Sean Dougal, the Ruddock Brosl and dare I say it Mike McCarthy who has just left for Leinster came via the Exile system (lots of others that i could mention without going back years for other players).
The schools will always be stronger at U18 level, they get the best players and indeed take the best youths like young Cleary if they can't get them in the first place. This school side are not just very good, they play like a club side due to the fact that most of them are Leinster players! They know each other inside out. They are a VERY good school side, but do not fool yourself into thinking that the clubs are not a good side, they are also a very good side and could surprise a few people. They lost 3 players to sickness before today's game and strangely took some of their best players off (unlike the schools) to give game time to lots of players today, there was not that much in it at half time. The school team is a great team but for me the prize should be an U20 World Cup in two years time, not a FIRA and to do that you need to keep lots in the system, The majority of them will be from that schools team, but a few of the clubs team can also go on to great things. I hope that they do.
I dont like when the schools v youths debate comes a you v us debate but it generally always does when schools followers bring up schools cups and how(in their opinion) a schools cup usurps virtually everything somebody from the clubs game can do.I think its just disappointing that the Schools won't get to play the FIRA comp this year, it looks like a particularly good group.
The schools you should expect should be stronger considering the bigger schools like blackrock, terenure, clongowes etc field at u13/14 level as many teams as 1/2 the u13/14 teams in all east munster(waterford/tipperary). ie clongowes/blackrock field 6/7 teams at these levels while there is only 12 clubs in tipp/waterford with these clubs fielding 1 team with some clubs fielding 2 teams
I dont think its disappointing that the schools wont get to field in the FIRA. The youths players will get extra exposure that they wouldnt get at all without playing in the FIRA comp. The u18 schools players will still get to play for ireland and get exposure from media etc from playing in the senior cup that clubs players will never get unless i or somebody else gets the writers in the examiner etc to do write ups on the youths leagues0 -
Results from some games played the last few days and some upcoming fixtures
PBC Cork 22 Terenure 16
St Gerards 0 St Marys 15
Blackrock 54 St Munchins 6
Wednesday
CBC Cork v Belvedere
Portadown College v Ulster Youths
St Andrews v St Marys
Thursday
Ulster Youths v Grosvenor Grammar
Friday
Glenstal v St Gerards
High School v Blackrock
Pres Bray v CUS
Saturday
Castleknock v St Marys
Methody Belfast v Blackrock
Wesley v CUS
Belvedere v Castletroy
Campbell Belfast v Rockwell
St Michaels v PBC Cork
Sunday
St Munchins v Terenure0 -
If your to be honest alot of the time it's posts from you that start the whole clubs vs schools debate such as your 'delighted' the schools are not in fira. And on a number if occasions naming families on this thread who decided to send there son to a boarding school, that is such bad form. I'm sure the families involved dont want there good names being posted all over these threads!!! I have more of an affiliation to club rugby than schools but just like to see the best players for ireland coming through and on show. Provincial and National u18 sides is the way to go no more clubs & schools!ormond lad wrote: »Schools will nearly always be stronger but the youths are getting stronger year on year and will surprise many.
I dont like when the schools v youths debate comes a you v us debate but it generally always does when schools followers bring up schools cups and how(in their opinion) a schools cup usurps virtually everything somebody from the clubs game can do.
The schools you should expect should be stronger considering the bigger schools like blackrock, terenure, clongowes etc field at u13/14 level as many teams as 1/2 the u13/14 teams in all east munster(waterford/tipperary). ie clongowes/blackrock field 6/7 teams at these levels while there is only 12 clubs in tipp/waterford with these clubs fielding 1 team with some clubs fielding 2 teams
I dont think its disappointing that the schools wont get to field in the FIRA. The youths players will get extra exposure that they wouldnt get at all without playing in the FIRA comp. The u18 schools players will still get to play for ireland and get exposure from media etc from playing in the senior cup that clubs players will never get unless i or somebody else gets the writers in the examiner etc to do write ups on the youths leagues0 -
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Im delighted the youths are back in the FIRA as they should never have been not playing in the tournament in the first place. When the easter tournament that the schools competed in was stopped it should have been the youths to have continued in the FIRA and the schools to have played the friendlies like they are this year.thetruth_time wrote: »If your to be honest alot of the time it's posts from you that start the whole clubs vs schools debate such as your 'delighted' the schools are not in fira. And on a number if occasions naming families on this thread who decided to send there son to a boarding school, that is such bad form. I'm sure the families involved dont want there good names being posted all over these threads!!! I have more of an affiliation to club rugby than schools but just like to see the best players for ireland coming through and on show. Provincial and National u18 sides is the way to go no more clubs & schools!
A mix of youths and schools at 18s will not happen for the forseeable future. Separate sides gives more kids a chance at pulling on a provincial jersey. Just like the A schools team also gives 20+ kids from Munster, Leinster and Ulster a chance to pull on their provinces jersey in an interpro0 -
Was talking to a top level age grade provincial coach recently and his opinion is that 'red jerseys' (munster) are too easily achieved these days. And I think he has a point. If the irfu are concerned that u18 rugby would deny kids a chance to play for their province go down the same route as the 19s and have 2 sides per province! But the truth is leinster are the only province that have the quality to turn out 2 teams at u19 level, Munster & Ulster tried it and it wasn't working out, there simply wasn't 40+ players in the provinces up to that standard.ormond lad wrote: »Im delighted the youths are back in the FIRA as they should never have been not playing in the tournament in the first place. When the easter tournament that the schools competed in was stopped it should have been the youths to have continued in the FIRA and the schools to have played the friendlies like they are this year.
A mix of youths and schools at 18s will not happen for the forseeable future. Separate sides gives more kids a chance at pulling on a provincial jersey. Just like the A schools team also gives 20+ kids from Munster, Leinster and Ulster a chance to pull on their provinces jersey in an interpro0 -
AFAIK Munster only stopped having 2 sides at 19s due to cost issuesthetruth_time wrote: »Was talking to a top level age grade provincial coach recently and his opinion is that 'red jerseys' (munster) are too easily achieved these days. And I think he has a point. If the irfu are concerned that u18 rugby would deny kids a chance to play for their province go down the same route as the 19s and have 2 sides per province! But the truth is leinster are the only province that have the quality to turn out 2 teams at u19 level, Munster & Ulster tried it and it wasn't working out, there simply wasn't 40+ players in the provinces up to that standard.
There was players up to the standard for 2 teams.
Having 2 teams gave more players a chance to pull on a provincial jersey.
Dont think red jerseys are too easily achieved. how are they??
We should be widening the potential base and having 2 19s sides where the youths and schools play together for the first time is the way to do that.0 -
In sure a coach who is working at that level is in a better position to come to the conclusion that the quality simply isn't there to have 2 19s sides than the rest of us.ormond lad wrote: »AFAIK Munster only stopped having 2 sides at 19s due to cost issues
There was players up to the standard for 2 teams.
Having 2 teams gave more players a chance to pull on a provincial jersey.
Dont think red jerseys are too easily achieved. how are they??
We should be widening the potential base and having 2 19s sides where the youths and schools play together for the first time is the way to do that.0 -
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Ormond Lad is one of the more knowledgeable people I've ever heard from when talking about age grade rugby in Munster. And I know, through playing, plenty of coaches working at that level, some of them very successful.thetruth_time wrote: »In sure a coach who is working at that level is in a better position to come to the conclusion that the quality simply isn't there to have 2 19s sides than the rest of us.
Wasn't there a similar discussion here about this sort of thing when that Tony Ward article came out a while ago?0 -
Reading results and fixtures from twitter and websites doesn't make someone knowledgable. All I've seen are biased and reckless comments (naming kids families who have changed schools etc) and inaccurate assumptions.irishbucsfan wrote: »Ormond Lad is one of the more knowledgeable people I've ever heard from when talking about age grade rugby in Munster. And I know, through playing, plenty of coaches working at that level, some of them very successful.
Wasn't there a similar discussion here about this sort of thing when that Tony Ward article came out a while ago?0 -
My viewpoint isnt just from "reading results and fixtures". Its from observing games, looking at the longterm. Sure if we only had 1 interpro side at 19s we lose out on players. Darren Sweetnam would never have played munster 19s as would have 30+ kids over the past few seasons and some of those would have had a much lower chance of playing 20s this season esp those not in 1 of the 8 A schools as those in the youths set up have to do 5 times as much work to be recognised by provincial coaches. Case in point the all ireland winning 19s team of shannon-st marys have virtually no representatives on munster 19s/20s dispite being the clear best u19 clubs side and having 10+ representatives at 1 level or another the previous year. How can that be?thetruth_time wrote: »Reading results and fixtures from twitter and websites doesn't make someone knowledgable. All I've seen are biased and reckless comments (naming kids families who have changed schools etc) and inaccurate assumptions.
Nothing ive posted is reckless and while i am slightly biased in favour of youths rugby i have certainly not been reckless0 -
Highlights of the irish youths and irish schools game now available on IRFU website http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iabQpzwRQs&feature=em-uploademail0
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ormond lad wrote: »Highlights of the irish youths and irish schools game now available on IRFU website http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iabQpzwRQs&feature=em-uploademail
As someone who was at that game, if I may make a few observations regarding the game and the result. I have not seen any report in the papers about this match.
Firstly, yes, this is a very good schools side, but the clubs seemed to concentrate more on giving game time to players than the actual result itself. If this is a good thing or a bad thing, I'm not sure. The half time score of 13-3 was fair and I would not argue with that, however the Clubs made I would say 6 changes at half time. The most important ones for me was the taking off of the best forward for them in Kevin Hastings and the half back pair of Jack Cullen and Sean O'Hagan. It all went a little bit pear shaped in the beginning of the second half and the defensive shape was lost. The schools did make some changes after the tries went in but seemed to keep their fly half Byrne, centre Cleary and full back Dardis on for the whole match. They were the key men and they along with the second rows for the schools were running the show. The lineouts were all going the schools way and the breakdown belonged to them. The strange thing was the Clubs brought both Hastings and O'Hagan back on with about 10 mins left and you could see the improvement in tempo and pace from the clubs straight away indeed they were instrumental in breaking lines and ultimately scoring the only try for the clubs. I am sure that they were off the pitch for most of the second half for a good reason, (maybe injury) but personally, I think that it cost them big time.
The other thing that I learnt from talking to some of the spectators was that the clubs had 3 boys take ill before the game including two first choice props. (I know the schools also had some boys ill prior to the game)
Without in any way attempting to say that the schools were not going to win this game well, (it was always going to be the case) I do feel that the point should be made that, the clubs did not seem to be worried about the result as much and they were for sure not as familiar with one another as the schools were, especially with all the changes going on. I think that they will surprise a few people yet this year.
Well done to the schools, built around an exceptional Leinster squad, they are a very good team, but watch the Clubs, when they settle on a first choice team they will gel into a very good unit. This year group as a whole will do some big things over the next few years,0 -
The game served its purpose well as a full-on trial. Substitutions are made as underage players have only so much game time permissible. Ahead of the games coming up, selectors and management got a good look at the playerbase in this age-group.
Coolmine RFC again were also excellent hosts.0 -
True, great hosts at Coolmine RFC. Great skills on show from everyone in tough conditions. The future is bright.0
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With all the hype around Brewer, Cleary sounds like a good player in the centre.0
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I would say that Cleary gave them real food for thought. I would think that his distribution skills are far superior personally. In this game last year Cleary was fly half for the Clubs so he has got good hands and is a good kicker. Brewer has size, bulk and power though and boy is he hyped up. Brewer played in this fixture last year as well for the schools and I don't remember him having the same impact but I believe that he is doing great things with Nure this year. Mind you I did think that Cleary has bulked up a lot since last year.
For me young O'Hagan has both skills and the size to go with it. When he played irish clubs with Adam Byrne as a centre partnership last year they were just superb. If he was a schools player in Ireland instead of an Exile he would be talked up beyond belief. For me he is one of the most exciting talents in Irish rugby ..... And I say that with caution because it is dangerous to hype up young players, but I do believe that. I watched him with Connacht this Summer and he stood out a mile in their U18 side, he could not play in the interpros for them as he was going back to school in England and played with the Exiles and stood out a mile with them as well when he played against Munster in Thomond and against Connacht at U19 in Galway.
I do not want to reignite the Exile debate as they seem to get bad press on these treads, (and this is schools) but I think that the difference of him playing and not being on the pitch was evident, particularly the way he was organising the defence against a much better schools team.0 -
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I would say that Cleary gave them real food for thought. I would think that his distribution skills are far superior personally. In this game last year Cleary was fly half for the Clubs so he has got good hands and is a good kicker. Brewer has size, bulk and power though and boy is he hyped up. Brewer played in this fixture last year as well for the schools and I don't remember him having the same impact but I believe that he is doing great things with Nure this year. Mind you I did think that Cleary has bulked up a lot since last year.
For me young O'Hagan has both skills and the size to go with it. When he played irish clubs with Adam Byrne as a centre partnership last year they were just superb. If he was a schools player in Ireland instead of an Exile he would be talked up beyond belief. For me he is one of the most exciting talents in Irish rugby ..... And I say that with caution because it is dangerous to hype up young players, but I do believe that. I watched him with Connacht this Summer and he stood out a mile in their U18 side, he could not play in the interpros for them as he was going back to school in England and played with the Exiles and stood out a mile with them as well when he played against Munster in Thomond and against Connacht at U19 in Galway.
I do not want to reignite the Exile debate as they seem to get bad press on these treads, (and this is schools) but I think that the difference of him playing and not being on the pitch was evident, particularly the way he was organising the defence against a much better schools team.
This time last year Brewer was coming back from injury and was subbing and still playing in the back row.0
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