Dublin Marathon 2012 - Mentored Novices Thread

Younganne

sca21 wrote: »

OK, so here I am one week after completing my first full Marathon and I think I'm gonna go for the DCM.
[*]Have you raced before? If so what are your PBs? (Date and distance please!)
May 2011 half 1:57, May 2012 full 2012 4:15
Do you still need to take walk breaks in your training? No problem if you do!
No
[*]How much training do you currently do? Distances, how many days a week, cross training - whatever you think is relevant
Training since November for the full, followed Hal Higdon Novice 2 training 4 days a week peeking at 35 miles on the good weeks (very few!)
5k-24 (training run)
10k-51/52ish (training run)
[*]What do you want to achieve? Dream finishing time and realistic finishing time?
Ideally sub 4h or as close to 4h as possible
[*]How many days a week can you train?
5

*]Why are you running this marathon?
I'm hooked!

My question is what programme to follow and do I go back and start from scratch. I just completed the full last week so I'm still being kind to the auld body. Ideally, I will start up again in the first week of June but will have to take 2-3 weeks off for holidays in August not ideal I know but will be all set in September when the high milage starts. Advice appreciated.

Congrats on last weeks marathon, great time. You now need to do recovery...here is Hals recovery plan...week after marathon is week Zero so take it from there.....

rasher_m

sca21 wrote: »

OK, so here I am one week after completing my first full Marathon and I think I'm gonna go for the DCM.
[*]Have you raced before? If so what are your PBs? (Date and distance please!)
May 2011 half 1:57, May 2012 full 2012 4:15
Do you still need to take walk breaks in your training? No problem if you do!
No
[*]How much training do you currently do? Distances, how many days a week, cross training - whatever you think is relevant
Training since November for the full, followed Hal Higdon Novice 2 training 4 days a week peeking at 35 miles on the good weeks (very few!)
5k-24 (training run)
10k-51/52ish (training run)
[*]What do you want to achieve? Dream finishing time and realistic finishing time?
Ideally sub 4h or as close to 4h as possible
[*]How many days a week can you train?
5

*]Why are you running this marathon?
I'm hooked!

My question is what programme to follow and do I go back and start from scratch. I just completed the full last week so I'm still being kind to the auld body. Ideally, I will start up again in the first week of June but will have to take 2-3 weeks off for holidays in August not ideal I know but will be all set in September when the high milage starts. Advice appreciated.

Did you know there is an improvers thread above this novices' thread?

Tipsygypsy

Hello all,
I've just spent the afternoon reading through this thread, itw been very helpful, thanks to all - I think its time I throw my hat in the ring.
Im 34, female, began jogging about 4 years ago (C25k) to successfully lose weight (post-babies - 3 of them and having quit smoking), had somehow gotten myself up to 96kg. Am now happily down at 72kg - am 5'9 so this is fine for for me. So for most of the past few years Ive been doing 3 miles 2/3 times a week with a slightly longer run at the weekend. Had a log here for a while but gave it up as too time consuming.

Longest distance successfully run was 10 miles in the adidas series in 2010, hurt my knee during it. Atempted the Half Marathon a few weeks later but had to walk/limp 7 miles with that injured knee. I have a score to settle with that race series and I plan to do it this year!

At the moment Im not long back training after a break (non-running related injury), so busy getting my miles back up for the Dublin and Galway Womens Mini's (both June) am also doing the Galway 5k series at the moment.

Im slow, getting faster, my fastest ever mile was the first mile of last nights 5k in Craughwell which was in 8:40, still astonished I did it! Normally I run around 10 or 11 mins/mile, depending on the day.

I haven't fully decided to do the DCM, I still get a bit of trouble from the knee if I dont take my increases very slow (seen physio/had gait analysis done/proper shoes etc) so I will probably start the program 2/3 weeks early to give me wiggle room to slow down increases if I need to.

Have you raced before? If so what are your PBs? (Date and distance please!)
5k - May 12 - 28:45 (still very pleased with self since this was just last night!)
5 mile in 2010 - 49:23
10k - June 11 - 1:02:41 - intend on beating this in a couple of weeks!
10 mile in 2010 - 01:59:25
13 mile in 2010 - longest and most painful 3 hrs and 2 seconds of my life - including birthing 3 very big baby boys - stupid knee!

Do you still need to take walk breaks in your training? No problem if you do!
No

How much training do you currently do? Distances, how many days a week, cross training - whatever you think is relevant
usually 2 x 3 miles and a longer one 4 or 5 at weekend, increasing at the moment to hit 6 form wmm, I plan for an extra optional 2 miler every week but almost never actually do it. some yoga (maybe twice a week if Im being good) an once in a while I throw on a Davina dvd for good measure

What do you want to achieve? Dream finishing time and realistic finishing time?
Just want to finish it without banjaxing myself entirely. Will think about a time goal later on

How many days a week can you train?
as many as it takes

Why are you running this marathon?
Clearly Im insane, but at least I know Im in good company here!

Younganne

I know there is a lot of talk on this thread already about pace and finishing times that would scare the bejasus out of any novice runner.

So here are a few tips to keep the motivation up especially for the people who are new to running and not just marathon training.

Start with low mileage. Add a little more distance at a time and in no time you'll be up to a 5K or more. If you decide to increase your mileage all at once, you will risk injury or just simply burnout.
There are still 5 weeks to the start of the training plan so don’t worry if you’re not up to the first weeks plan yet of 3x3m & 1x 6m
Here are the last 5 weeks of the build-up plan from Hal Higdon


Mon |Tue |Wed |Thur |Fri | Sat |Sun | Total
Rest |2.5 m run |3 m run |2 m run |Rest |30 min walk |5 m run| 12.5

Rest |2.5 m run |3 m run |2.5 m run |Rest |30 min walk |3 m run | 11

Rest |2.5 m run |3 m run| 2.5 m run | Rest |30 min walk |5.5 m run | 13.5

Rest |3 m run |3 m run |3 m run |Rest |30 min walk |3 m run |12
Rest |3 m run |3 m run |3 m run |Rest |30 min walk |6 m run |15

Get yourself fitted for a good pair of runners. Find a good running store( you can't go wrong with Amphibiam King as they are runners themselves so will answer all you questions for you too:D) and have their experts help you get a pair of runners that are right for you. Even though good runners can be fairly expensive, they will save you from injuries and expensive doctor's bills in the long run.

Don't run too often. When many new runners start, they think they have to run everyday. That couldn't be further from the truth. Most experts recommend running three to four days a week. If you run everyday, you do not give your body time to recover and get stronger as your body actually strengthens your muscles on your non-running days. Running everyday does not allow your body the recovery time it needs to get stronger.

Drink lots of water. Running, especially in hot weather, can dehydrate you. To avoid dehydration, be sure to drink plenty of water throughout the day and extra after a run. Also, do not overlook the benefits of drinking water regularly throughout the week, even on your non-running days. Being even slightly dehydrated can drastically impact your run and make it far more difficult and can slow down recovery too.

Don't compare yourself to other runners. Many new runners get disheartened by watching other runners that seem faster or better than they are. If you're a new runner, remember that getting good at anything takes time and practice. There are people that are faster than you, but remember there are also people that are slower or don't run at all. Set your own goals and don't worry about others.

And Most importantly..ENJOY your running!!:D

career_move

What's the best way to carry water with you on long runs? I normally take a 500ml bottle in my hand but sometimes it can be annoying. I like to take a sip of water after every couple of k

ecoli

Drink lots of water. Running, especially in hot weather, can dehydrate you. To avoid dehydration, be sure to drink plenty of water throughout the day and extra after a run. Also, do not overlook the benefits of drinking water regularly throughout the week, even on your non-running days. Being even slightly dehydrated can drastically impact your run and make it far more difficult and can slow down recovery too.

This is a great point and one that alot of people overlook this. Just to elaborate on this further

- As little as 2-3% dehydration can have a significant impact on performance

- Dehydration can make muscle cells become turgid (tight) which can hamper flexibility and can cause muscle tightness and injury

- Hydration levels are important in the composition of blood content. The better hydrated you are the better you will be able to transport red blood cells as well as crucial minerals around the body which has an impact on recovery and ultimately the benefit you get from the training sessions. No point in killing yourself with training sessions unless you set your body up to get the most benefit you can possibly get from these runs.

Younganne is definitely on the right track with her advice especially the Enjoy yourself part another often overlooked aspect you need to enjoy yourself the minute you start seeing running as a chore the battle is already lost. Its very hard to keep the motivation going with something you dont enjoy or feel better for doing so Meet up with other people/ throw your favourite songs onto the mp3 or any other tool you can to make things a bit easier

ecoli

career_move wrote: »

What's the best way to carry water with you on long runs? I normally take a 500ml bottle in my hand but sometimes it can be annoying. I like to take a sip of water after every couple of k

If you are doing anything less than an hour you should be grand just hydrating well during the day before and after

For long runs I would recommend perhaps chosing a looped course where you can leave a bottle and pick it up each time you go around

Pacing Mule

Younganne wrote: »

Don't compare yourself to other runners. Many new runners get disheartened by watching other runners that seem faster or better than they are. If you're a new runner, remember that getting good at anything takes time and practice. There are people that are faster than you, but remember there are also people that are slower or don't run at all. Set your own goals and don't worry about others.

+1

Today I got passed out not once but twice in the phoenix park by a lady pushing a buggy and walking a dog at the same time. (I was running the upcoming 5 mile race series run - she passed me out around the ashtown gate and when I cut across to the popes cross and down the kyber she had kept going around by the zoo and managed to catch me again on the hills around the chapelizod gate on the far side of the park) I'm a 6ft 1 male busting a gut and she's pushing a buggy and flying past.

The thing is rather than being disheartened by watching her I see it as wow - look what level a bit of time and effort can catapult people to if they stick with it.

Younganne

Pageant Messiah wrote: »

+1

Today I got passed out not once but twice in the phoenix park by a lady pushing a buggy and walking a dog at the same time. (I was running the upcoming 5 mile race series run - she passed me out around the ashtown gate and when I cut across to the popes cross and down the kyber she had kept going around by the zoo and managed to catch me again on the hills around the chapelizod gate on the far side of the park) I'm a 6ft 1 male busting a gut and she's pushing a buggy and flying past.

The thing is rather than being disheartened by watching her I see it as wow - look what level a bit of time and effort can catapult people to if they stick with it.

Thats the right attitude to have and somtimes it takes people a long time to reach that atttude!!:D

Younganne

career_move wrote: »

What's the best way to carry water with you on long runs? I normally take a 500ml bottle in my hand but sometimes it can be annoying. I like to take a sip of water after every couple of k

I find that the big bottles filled can sometimes hurt the wrist and therefore i carry 2 x 250ml bottles.... i have got to the stage where i don't carry water except over 10m but for on my first marathon training i was drinking way too much on the training runs and then having to find toilet facilities (enclosed gateways in the country):o.

you can also purchase belts that hold waterbottles but personally i find them hard to drink out off and no matter how often they have been washed, i can't get the smell of plastic out of them.

Loops as Ecolis said, where you can access water for now and as the LSR builds up, you'll start hiding/stashing bottles or getting someone to do water drops to you!!

G-Money

Regarding hydration, it might be of interest to listen to episode 71 and 72 of Marathon Talk. They speak to Dr Mark Heatherington who talks about hydration.

sca21

rasher_m wrote: »

Did you know there is an improvers thread above this novices' thread?

Just noticed it there ta. Still consider myself a novice though!

Trampas

I am read/reading a few books at the moment

Marathon: The Ultimate Training Guide: Advice, Plans, and Programs for Half and Full Marathons Hal Higdon & Advanced Marathoning Pete Pfitzinger, Scott Douglas

Very good books and really enjoying Advanced Marathoning.

Anyone else reading books?

Dilbert75

OK here goes:

Have you raced before? If so what are your PBs? (Date and distance please!):
Yes!
Enniscorthy 10k, Feb 2011 - 50:41
WIT 6k, Mar 2011 - 28:48
Wexford Half, Apr 2012 - 1:55:56
And I'm doing the Edinburgh Marathon on Sunday.

Do you still need to take walk breaks in your training? No problem if you do
Have taken short walk breaks in my long runs. But from reading the above I've realised my LSR's have been L & R but not enough of S.

How much training do you currently do? Distances, how many days a week, cross training - whatever you think is relevant:
Since getting an injury right at the start of this training plan, I have been doing 3 days a week but 4 would be ok. Would like to include some cross-training too. With the exception of a couple of sessions, I've trained entirely alone for this marathon and it's been a bit tough. I'd hope to try get a few people together in the local club to train for DCM.

What do you want to achieve? Dream finishing time and realistic finishing time?
Ideally under 4hrs. I'll tell you again on Monday when I know how Edinburgh has gone. I've been using this 4:45+ training plan and would probably tend towards Hal Higdon's Novice 2 next time.

Why are you running this marathon?
Because, despite training alone, I've really enjoyed getting out. I've dropped 10% of my body weight and 25% of my body fat since I started running (now in healthy range for both). And I'm a workaholic, so if I don't do something like this I'll probably end up going back to college part time again - and being divorced & disowned. And my in-laws live near the route and we've been to see it / crossed the route every year for the last 10 or so and I've always thought about doing it, but never got there.

Younganne

Dilbert75 wrote: »

OK here goes:

Have you raced before? If so what are your PBs? (Date and distance please!):
Yes!
Enniscorthy 10k, Feb 2011 - 50:41
WIT 6k, Mar 2011 - 28:48
Wexford Half, Apr 2012 - 1:55:56
And I'm doing the Edinburgh Marathon on Sunday.

Do you still need to take walk breaks in your training? No problem if you do
Have taken short walk breaks in my long runs. But from reading the above I've realised my LSR's have been L & R but not enough of S.

How much training do you currently do? Distances, how many days a week, cross training - whatever you think is relevant:
Since getting an injury right at the start of this training plan, I have been doing 3 days a week but 4 would be ok. Would like to include some cross-training too. With the exception of a couple of sessions, I've trained entirely alone for this marathon and it's been a bit tough. I'd hope to try get a few people together in the local club to train for DCM.

What do you want to achieve? Dream finishing time and realistic finishing time?
Ideally under 4hrs. I'll tell you again on Monday when I know how Edinburgh has gone. I've been using this 4:45+ training plan and would probably tend towards Hal Higdon's Novice 2 next time.

Why are you running this marathon?
Because, despite training alone, I've really enjoyed getting out. I've dropped 10% of my body weight and 25% of my body fat since I started running (now in healthy range for both). And I'm a workaholic, so if I don't do something like this I'll probably end up going back to college part time again - and being divorced & disowned. And my in-laws live near the route and we've been to see it / crossed the route every year for the last 10 or so and I've always thought about doing it, but never got there.

Best of Luck on Sunday, Enjoy!!

Younganne

Trampas wrote: »

I am read/reading a few books at the moment

Marathon: The Ultimate Training Guide: Advice, Plans, and Programs for Half and Full Marathons Hal Higdon & Advanced Marathoning Pete Pfitzinger, Scott Douglas

Very good books and really enjoying Advanced Marathoning.

Anyone else reading books?

I'm reading Advanced Marathoning myself at the moment, i keep dipping in and out of it and rereading it, trying to get a better understanding of everything.


I also have the following that i flick through as needed:

• Nutrition for Marathon Running - Jane Griffin
• Go Faster Food - Kate Percy
• Marathon Training for Dummies - i bought this for my first marathon in 2010 and it helped me through, but then i didn't know about Boards:o

corny

Hi everyone. I'm a little late after 26 pages but here goes:

Have you raced before? If so what are your PBs? (Date and distance please!):
Yes.
5k 22.06
5 Mile 40.20
10k 49.40
10 Mile 79.41
Half 1.56.** (worst day of my life:()

All from last year and tbh i think i'd beat all bar my 5k time at the moment.

Do you still need to take walk breaks in your training? No problem if you do
Don't have to but it never hurts when you're having a particularly bad day.

How much training do you currently do? Distances, how many days a week, cross training - whatever you think is relevant:
Been following this mileage build up programme http://www.marathontraining.com/marathon/m_mile.html
On week 14 and everything going fine so far.

What do you want to achieve? Dream finishing time and realistic finishing time?
Really after missing Rotterdam through injury i'd settle for just crossing the line.
Dream: Finishing with the 3.45 pacers
Realistic: Under 4 hours.

Why are you running this marathon?
I love running! Been at it for a year and a half and its the one distance i haven't mastered yet.

The plan was always to jump right into http://www.marathontraining.com/marathon/m_sch_2.html after the build up. Does anyone have any experience of this plan or opinion on it? I was going to do PMP runs on Thursdays of the plan too. Is this a good idea? Thanks for the help.

sassyj

I'm in for DCM this year. Am on week 8 of HH plan as advised before marathon training. Have had a knee niggle for a while that has turned into very tight hamstrings every time I run. Was very uncomfortable last night, cant't take it any more, going to see someone about it this week.

Younganne

corny wrote: »

Hi everyone. I'm a little late after 26 pages but here goes:

Have you raced before? If so what are your PBs? (Date and distance please!):
Yes.
5k 22.06
5 Mile 40.20
10k 49.40
10 Mile 79.41
Half 1.56.** (worst day of my life:()

All from last year and tbh i think i'd beat all bar my 5k time at the moment.

Do you still need to take walk breaks in your training? No problem if you do
Don't have to but it never hurts when you're having a particularly bad day.

How much training do you currently do? Distances, how many days a week, cross training - whatever you think is relevant:
Been following this mileage build up programme http://www.marathontraining.com/marathon/m_mile.html
On week 14 and everything going fine so far.

What do you want to achieve? Dream finishing time and realistic finishing time?
Really after missing Rotterdam through injury i'd settle for just crossing the line.
Dream: Finishing with the 3.45 pacers
Realistic: Under 4 hours.

Why are you running this marathon?
I love running! Been at it for a year and a half and its the one distance i haven't mastered yet.

The plan was always to jump right into http://www.marathontraining.com/marathon/m_sch_2.html after the build up. Does anyone have any experience of this plan or opinion on it? I was going to do PMP runs on Thursdays of the plan too. Is this a good idea? Thanks for the help.

Corny, i looked at that very plan you have for my first marathon and dropped it on advice from more experienced runners...there is a lot of high mileage and for a first marathon that is unnecessary,

Maybe one of my glamourous assistants with more experience would be better to advise you here.;)

sassyj wrote: »

I'm in for DCM this year. Am on week 8 of HH plan as advised before marathon training. Have had a knee niggle for a while that has turned into very tight hamstrings every time I run. Was very uncomfortable last night, cant't take it any more, going to see someone about it this week.

Good idea to get the legs checked and then follow the advice given.
Don't keep running on it if its giving you trouble as this will lead to bigger/worse problems down the line

RayCun

corny wrote: »

The plan was always to jump right into http://www.marathontraining.com/marathon/m_sch_2.html after the build up. Does anyone have any experience of this plan or opinion on it?

The max mileage isn't hugely different from the Higdon plan. I wouldn't go over 20/21 for a long run, 22/23 miles sounds like too much risk for too little benefit for me. The question is, how much are you running at the moment? Are you ready to jump into a 34 mile week?
I don't see what the point of Friday - rest, Saturday - short run, Sunday - long run is either It would make more sense to me to have the long run right after the rest day, and a shorter recovery run the day after that.

corny

RayCun wrote: »

The max mileage isn't hugely different from the Higdon plan. I wouldn't go over 20/21 for a long run, 22/23 miles sounds like too much risk for too little benefit for me. The question is, how much are you running at the moment? Are you ready to jump into a 34 mile week?
I don't see what the point of Friday - rest, Saturday - short run, Sunday - long run is either It would make more sense to me to have the long run right after the rest day, and a shorter recovery run the day after that.

Running the build up mileage programme on that site (link above). I'm in week 14 and running 30 miles a week. Fairly comfortable at it and the plan leads to the 34 mile week start.

I should have mentioned that i had no intention going above the 20 mile mark. 3 20 milers will be hard enough.;)

menoscemo

Corny, I think the plan looks generally fine (as ray says, the postioning of the rest days are maybe not ideal), and the max mileage at 45-46 is not that much different to HHNovice plan. As long as you are ready to take on multiple 30+ mile weeks and 5 days/week running (and it sounds like you are) then the more 20+ mile runs you do the better.

It sounds like you are hoping to hit a time in your first marathon, but just rememebr to do most of your LSRs slower than goal pace.

corny

menoscemo wrote: »

Corny, I think the plan looks generally fine (as ray says, the postioning of the rest days are maybe not ideal), and the max mileage at 45-46 is not that much different to HHNovice plan. As long as you are ready to take on multiple 30+ mile weeks and 5 days/week running (and it sounds like you are) then the more 20+ mile runs you do the better.

Thanks Meno. The build up plan has the same weekend mix. I'll try flipping the sessions around.

menoscemo wrote: »

It sounds like you are hoping to hit a time in your first marathon, but just rememebr to do most of your LSRs slower than goal pace.

I'm always vigilant with the pacing!;)

Mr Slow

menoscemo wrote: »

the more 20+ mile runs you do the better.

Just to be pedantic, this applies more to seasoned runners attempting their first marathon rather than those coming from a low mileage base where too much too soon can lead to injury or illness.

menoscemo

Mr Slow wrote: »

Just to be pedantic, this applies more to seasoned runners attempting their first marathon rather than those coming from a low mileage base where too much too soon can lead to injury or illness.

Selective quoting: You left out the important bit, which I have now bolded

menoscemo wrote: »

As long as you are ready to take on multiple 30+ mile weeks and 5 days/week running (and it sounds like you are) then the more 20+ mile runs you do the better.

But yes, you are right, for those coming with a low mileage base (generally running less than 20 miles per week) the HH Novice 1 plan is best and 1 20 miler is sufficient.
In Cornys case he looks like he is ready for a slightly more advanced plan that HH NoviceI

ncmc

Since I started religiously running 4 times a week (currently running 21/22 miles per week) I have been feeling really tired. Not tired legs, more 'nodding off in front of the tv at 9pm' tired! Anyone else suffer from this? Any tips on how I can stay awake beyond 10pm!!!

Mr Slow

menoscemo wrote: »

Selective quoting

I was just stressing the point, jeez :P

Mr Slow

ncmc wrote: »

Since I started religiously running 4 times a week (currently running 21/22 miles per week) I have been feeling really tired. Not tired legs, more 'nodding off in front of the tv at 9pm' tired! Anyone else suffer from this? Any tips on how I can stay awake beyond 10pm!!!

The fitter you get, the easier it will become. Right now your body is being stressed and needs rest to recover, listen to your body!

rasher_m

ncmc wrote: »

Since I started religiously running 4 times a week (currently running 21/22 miles per week) I have been feeling really tired. Not tired legs, more 'nodding off in front of the tv at 9pm' tired! Anyone else suffer from this? Any tips on how I can stay awake beyond 10pm!!!

Why dont you just nod off and have the extra sleep, it should enhance your performance. i wish i had that problem, i seem to feel sleepy until 10pm and then i get a new lease of life just when i need to be going to sleep.

shortie_chik

ncmc wrote: »

Since I started religiously running 4 times a week (currently running 21/22 miles per week) I have been feeling really tired. Not tired legs, more 'nodding off in front of the tv at 9pm' tired! Anyone else suffer from this? Any tips on how I can stay awake beyond 10pm!!!

This heat is making a difference to my doziness too! Had to run early today before it got too hot (it was horrible trying to run at 4pm yesterday!) Then this afternoon I was reading & had to just close my eyes for a few mins.

Going to have to make sure I am as consistent with my sleeping routine as my running routine!