Leaf price drop - game changer?

Sesshoumaru

With the Leaf having recently dropped to 25k, this puts it in the same price category as a Volkswagen Golf BlueMotion. A car like the Golf has the obvious advantage of range, whereas the Leaf would have a better specification level as standard, more power, single gear (automatic), cheaper running costs, more refined, smartphone app for remote climate control etc

So what I'm wondering is, are there people out there who are curious, but who were put off by the 30k price tag? Does this bring the Nissan Leaf into equation for some?

I suppose I should add that I know some are perfectly happy buying secondhand and that would apply no matter what new car I started this type of thread about

Anyway if you are the type of person who would buy a medium sized hatchback brand new, if 25k is still too much, what price would it become attractive to you at? The Nissan Leaf and battery factory in Sunderland UK will start production soon and Nissan have stated they think they can reduce the cost of a Leaf by potentially up to one third. Despite it depreciating the value of my Leaf, I am very much looking forward to more price drops on the Leaf and other EV's !

"Obviously one of the problems is that the initial purchase price is very high," said Lawther told Automotive News Europe. "Making it in the UK will take about a third of the cost of the car out." The final purchase price hasn't been decided for the next generation Leaf.

The Leaf will be built on the same Sunderland, north east England, production line as the Qashqai compact crossover. Batteries will come from a factory on the same site which has just started production.

"European content will be the high 90s in terms of percentage," Lawther said. The only major item imported from Japan will be the electric motor, although the company is considering building this in the UK too.



Read more: http://www.autonews.com/article/20120412/ANE/120419963#ixzz1sF4AbBxS

Heard an add for the price drop a few hours ago on the radio. Will surely swing it for many folks. Any one spending €20k on a new car now when factoring in fuel costs over a year or two should see the Leaf as very viable from an economic perspective.

RoverZT

When it has a 500km range, 200bhp and cheap batteries I will buy one.

That will be 2020 at least.

RoverZT

I don't have a garage either.

Wouldn't be the best idea having it charging out the front:D

Sesshoumaru

RoverZT wrote: »

I don't have a garage either.

Wouldn't be the best idea having it charging out the front:D

I know a good few EV owners, none of them have a garage and they all charge in their driveway. I don't see the issue? unless you live in an area where being slightly different singles you out for special attention?

LeinsterDub

I'd be interested but am really extremely worried about the batteries. No point saving on fuel on to be shelling out on batteries

Sesshoumaru

LeinsterDub wrote: »

I'd be interested but am really extremely worried about the batteries. No point saving on fuel on to be shelling out on batteries

Well this guy built his own BMW EV, I met him and he has quite a lot of experience.

http://www.evbmw.com/

I just thought I'd quote him on this

jackbauer wrote: »

Not to bore everyone to death but a point needs to be made regards EV batteries. The last time I checked the term "Lithium-ion Battery" actually encompassed some 27 different cathode chemisteries. The type fitted to mobile phones etc are COMPLETLY different from that fitted to a modern EV. Yes , certainly if I used cheap and nasty phone batteries in my car then I wouldn't get far or last long. On the other hand if I used an ev battery to power my phone I could talk until the end of time. The Lithium iron phosphate cell is gauranteed to reach at least 5000 cycles to 80% DOD and recent tests have shown this going out beyond 8000 cycles. Oh , and they have no measurable self discharge. The cell does not have a mechanism to allow it. So assuming no parasitic loads I can park my car at the airport , go on a 5 year holiday , come back and drive home.

Oh and on the cost issue. Two years ago my battery cost 4,500 euros delivered in a single quantity. Priced it last week. 3,250. I could buy a 24kwh battery off the shelf today (same capacity as the leaf) for 7,500 delivered in a single qty.

Owen

Price point is definitely closer to where it needs to be, but Jesus the Leaf is fugly. The Infiniti LE based on the Leaf is a much prettier car, and doesn't have the horrendous appliance connotaions the Nissan badge conjures up.

Guy:Incognito

RoverZT wrote: »

I don't have a garage either.

Wouldn't be the best idea having it charging out the front:D

All the public charging points are in the open are they not?

dar83

Shame that front grille looks like a Gel insert for a shoe.

Alanstrainor

Owen wrote: »

Price point is definitely closer to where it needs to be, but Jesus the Leaf is fugly. The Infiniti LE based on the Leaf is a much prettier car, and doesn't have the horrendous appliance connotaions the Nissan badge conjures up.

God that's horrendous

Mycroft H

Owen wrote: »

Price point is definitely closer to where it needs to be, but Jesus the Leaf is fugly. The Infiniti LE based on the Leaf is a much prettier car, and doesn't have the horrendous appliance connotaions the Nissan badge conjures up.

I'd take the leaf over that. Looks too plastic for my liking.


Shows how cars are personal things though doesnt it

Bandara

Owen wrote: »

Price point is definitely closer to where it needs to be, but Jesus the Leaf is fugly. The Infiniti LE based on the Leaf is a much prettier car, and doesn't have the horrendous appliance connotaions the Nissan badge conjures

Jesus that's a freak show looking thing

And as has been said, when it can go 400 miles, has at least 200bhp and an engine that responds I'd definitely consider one.

Until then it's a nonsense piece of equipment for me personally

bazz26

Hammertime wrote: »

Jesus that's a freak show looking thing

And as has been said, when it can go 400 miles, has at least 200bhp and an engine that responds I'd definitely consider one.

Until then it's a nonsense piece of equipment for me personally

Well you are going to be a little biast now.

Owen

That's a concept car, the front grill and light setup is exaggerated, but at least it looks like a sporty car, compared to the Leaf, which looks like a teapot.

dar83

Owen wrote: »

That's a concept car, the front grill and light setup is exaggerated, but at least it looks like a sporty car, compared to the Leaf, which looks like a teapot.

Crazy talk, it's got a rear diffuser!!! :pac:

shedweller

On the one hand i think people are getting too caught up in the looks of these cars.

On the other hand i'm thinking, while they were making the dies to press out the body panels, could they not make them look appealing to most people?

monkeysnapper

The way fuel prices are going this car is the start of things to come, i took a leaf for a test drive and to be honest its a nippy little thing ' i was very impressed !!!! I think the design is a bit crap ' but for what you get with the car plus no huge fuel prices i think its very attractive purchase . All the people on here that slag the car, id like to know how many of you have taken one for a test drive .

dar83

shedweller wrote: »

On the one hand i think people are getting too caught up in the looks of these cars.

On the other hand i'm thinking, while they were making the dies to press out the body panels, could they not make them look appealing to most people?

I think you'll find one of the most prevelant things in the design and concept of any EV, is the fact that without an engine noise manufacturers (and drivers/passengers) realise how noisy wind resistance can be when there is no engine sound. Therefore they have to try and design them as aerodynamically as possible, which you think might make for a good looking car, but when you're designing a family car and not a sports car, you end up with it looking like a Leaf.

Leonard Hofstadter

As long as a Leaf has a 160 km range (on an extremely good day, I might add), I will never buy one, I don't care how cheap it is.

The whole point of new technology is that it is supposed to be better than the technology it is replacing, and a conventional car can bring me from Galway to Cork or Dublin when I want to go, and when I want to come back, without needing to stop en route. EVs can't, plus they will run out much quicker on a motorway when you're travelling at 120, and my life is not so boring that I am going to travel at 100 or worse, 90 or 80 to get a few extra miles before I need to plug in!

I would happily consider a range extender once the prices come down a lot, and they make one that is good to drive though, like everyone else I would like to pay less to drive places!

The real reason the price of the Leaf is being dropped is because it is not exactly ripping up the rulebooks when it comes to sales - only 27000 of them have been sold worldwide since they went into production!

monkeysnapper

captainspeed wrote: »

As long as a Leaf has a 160 km range (on an extremely good day, I might add), I will never buy one, I don't care how cheap it is.

The whole point of new technology is that it is supposed to be better than the technology it is replacing, and a conventional car can bring me from Galway to Cork or Dublin when I want to go, and when I want to come back, without needing to stop en route. EVs can't, plus they will run out much quicker on a motorway when you're travelling at 120, and my life is not so boring that I am going to travel at 100 or worse, 90 or 80 to get a few extra miles before I need to plug in!

I would happily consider a range extender once the prices come down a lot, and they make one that is good to drive though, like everyone else I would like to pay less to drive places!

The real reason the price of the Leaf is being dropped is because it is not exactly ripping up the rulebooks when it comes to sales - only 27000 of them have been sold worldwide since they went into production!

But after say driving 150 km would you consider pulling in for 20/30 mins for a coffee and chocolate muffin and stick another 150 miles in the tank for the sake of saving a small fortune on fuel, ok can i ask another question on avarage how many miles do you do a day to say work and back , and how many times do you do a long run ie galway to cork ?

n97 mini

If it's €8k when it's 3 years old I'll buy one.

Anan1

monkeysnapper wrote: »

But after say driving 150 km would you consider pulling in for 20/30 mins for a coffee and chocolate muffin and stick another 150 miles in the tank for the sake of saving a small fortune on fuel, ok can i ask another question on avarage how many miles do you do a day to say work and back , and how many times do you do a long run ie galway to cork ?

This is one i've often wondered about - how many people actually regularly need the range of an ICE, as opposed to just not wanting to give up the comfort blanket? I drive from Dublin to Galway and back a couple of times a month, and i'd happily stop for a coffee on that trip if it would make serious inroads into the €100 the round trip costs me in petrol. Apart from that, all my journeys are well inside the range of a Leaf. Unfortunately I do need AWD and a bit of poke, so it's not an option for me at the moment.

Bigus

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Well this guy built his own BMW EV, I met him and he has quite a lot of experience.

http://www.evbmw.com/

I just thought I'd quote him on this

Thanks for the link,

Wow evbmw.com is some lad and local too, he's the future

Wheelnut

monkeysnapper wrote: »

But after say driving 150 km would you consider pulling in for 20/30 mins for a coffee and chocolate muffin and stick another 150 miles in the tank ...

You're mixing kilometers and miles. I doubt you would get 150 miles out of a twenty minute charge.

n97 mini wrote: »

If it's €8k when it's 3 years old I'll buy one.

No, when it's 3 years old someone will give you €8k to take it off their hands!

shedweller

Wheelnut wrote: »

No, when it's 3 years old someone will give you €8k to take it off their hands!

You do realise that not everybody thinks the same, don't you?

Jimbob 83

Not a factor for me anyway maybe in 5 years time they are mainstream and im stealing children to put unleaded in whatever im driving

fasttalkerchat

Also another 5k oof if you buy up North http://www.dft.gov.uk/topics/sustainable/olev/plug-in-car-grant

Although the price up here is still advertised as 25K sterling... not sure if a drop is coming

unkel

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

With the Leaf having recently dropped to 25k, this puts it in the same price category as a Volkswagen Golf BlueMotion.

I wonder who gave you the inspiration for this thread

Game changer gets my vote. As long as the price stays 30k minus 5k subsidy. What's your estimate of the saving on fuel between a 50MPG diesel doing 16k km and an EV doing the same distance charged on night rate electricity? (calculations included would be nice)

Anan1 wrote: »

I drive from Dublin to Galway and back a couple of times a month, and i'd happily stop for a coffee on that trip if it would make serious inroads into the €100 the round trip costs me in petrol.

200km one way and petrol at €1.70 would mean 19MPG - that is seriously bad, are you driving like an absolute lunatic and / or way above the legal speed limits? I've never managed that kinda figure in any of my V8 petrols. And I have tried

fasttalkerchat

.

unkel

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

He said Round trip, so about 35 mpg.

Don't knock my maths until you've tried them

400km - 249miles
€100 - 58.8l - 12.95 gallons

19.2 miles per gallon

fasttalkerchat

unkel wrote: »

Don't knock my maths until you've verified them

Already tried it... you were right.

Tragedy

€25,000 is:
A low spec A3
A mid range Giulietta
€2-7,000 more than a DS3
A basic DS4
A high spec new shape Focus
€2,000 more than a facelift Mazda 3 diesel
etc etc

At 20k, I think an awful lot of people would be interested, but €25k on a new car is enough for it to be as much about aspiration/style/kudos as it is about MPG imho.

unkel

Tragedy wrote: »

€25k on a new car is enough for it to be as much about aspiration/style/kudos as it is about MPG imho.

Dunno. There's a strong bias in this country towards running costs as opposed to initial outlay. I'd like to see some sums of the fuel savings, but they are substantial, no doubt

I presume Renault are losing money on the Leaf / their own EVs at these prices? I guess how long they can keep them down for will be a major factor in what the uptake will be...

Is there anything like this EV discounting going on in other countries or are they using Ireland as a test?

Anan1

unkel wrote: »

200km one way and petrol at €1.70 would mean 19MPG - that is seriously bad, are you driving like an absolute lunatic and / or way above the legal speed limits? I've never managed that kinda figure in any of my V8 petrols. And I have tried

I'd be going quick enough, and my aerodynamics aren't the best. I'm also going a little beyond Galway city, though, so it's a round trip of 500kms for me. I get 350kms from a tank (50l) around town, maybe 400-420 on a run. My best ever was 450.:o

Zubeneschamali

Tragedy wrote: »

At 20k, I think an awful lot of people would be interested

You mean enough to generate real sales? A measurable market share?

I don't think so. We're on the 3rd generation of Prius, and it's still a niche yuppie toy for eco-conscious beardy types with more money than sense.

The Leaf is way, way less practical than a Prius, and always will be, unless a real revolution in battery tech happens.

Zubeneschamali

unkel wrote: »

Is there anything like this EV discounting going on in other countries or are they using Ireland as a test?

The UK have similar incentives, up to £5000 sterling and roughly no (zero) people are interested.

Sesshoumaru

unkel wrote: »

I wonder who gave you the inspiration for this thread

Game changer gets my vote. As long as the price stays 30k minus 5k subsidy. What's your estimate of the saving on fuel between a 50MPG diesel doing 16k km and an EV doing the same distance charged on night rate electricity? (calculations included would be nice)

Comparing it to a Golf BlueMotion was a good idea, glad I thought of it :P I'll post up the data my car uploaded for all of March 2012. This is going to be a little long! But it should give people an idea of the kind of mileage you can get with a Nissan Leaf and how much it costs. I entered the price for night rate last year, I haven't checked if that has gone up or not since last year? It is also excluding VAT at 13.5%. Either way you are looking at a few euro less than €30 for around 2,500 kilometers.

monkeysnapper

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

You mean enough to generate real sales? A measurable market share?

I don't think so. We're on the 3rd generation of Prius, and it's still a niche yuppie toy for eco-conscious beardy types with more money than sense.

The Leaf is way, way less practical than a Prius, and always will be, unless a real revolution in battery tech happens.

But what about the point that people with less money would want one of these , but untill these come at a reasonable 2nd hand price they cant, these same people would never buy any kind of automobile at a price over say 5k , not everybody cares about the environment , some people want to get out of the high costs of the petrol/diesel. i dont like the point that these are for yuppies ,

beazee

unkel wrote: »

What's your estimate of the saving on fuel between a 50MPG diesel doing 16k km and an EV doing the same distance charged on night rate electricity? (calculations included would be nice)

50 mpg(uk) = 5.65l/100km
16K pa
€1.60/L diesel (www.pumps.ie)

324.4 kWh/2,467.7km = 0.1314 kWh/km (Sesshoumaru post)
16K pa
€0.07/kWh night energy

Diesel: 16,000 km * 5.65 L/100 km * €1.60/L = €1446.40
Leaf: 16,000 km * 0.1314 kWh/km * €0.07/kWh = €147.16

Savings: €1299.24

---

lets see this for 35mpg petrol:

35 mpg(uk) = 8.07l/100km
16K pa
€1.69/L petrol (www.pumps.ie)

Petrol: 16,000 km * 8.07 L/100 km * €1.69/L = €2182.13
Savings: €2034.97

Max Power1

The funny thing is I would prefer to spend 1800-2000 on fossil fuels per annum than to spend 25k on a heap of sh!t that cant go more than 100 miles per charge and makes me look like an eejit driving it (both because of the stupid design and because EVs are currently still only for the prius brigade)

Elessar

I think the general public still has massive range anxiety when it comes to EVs.

I know I do. Even though I only do on average, 100 miles a week. I don't want the possibility of running out of power too far from a charge point or the hassle of worrying about things like that everytime I get into the car. I'm probably exaggerating and in real life it wouldn't actually be as bad, but the fear is still there. Battery tech needs a massive jump and we need batteries that will last 300+ miles on a single charge. Or range extending ICEs that will power the batteries.

I think aswell, for mainstream takeup, more manufacturers will need to start offering the big sellers in electric form. The Golf, the avensis, the passat, the focus, the 3 series etc.

Once that happens, and the price isn't insanely higher than ICE models, EVs will start to take off.

Personally, as a 26 year old guy, the Leaf isn't really the type of car I'd buy. Lookswise it doesn't appeal to me. I bought a brand new Golf Edition-R this year, because, among many other things, I love the look of it. Popular mainstream models need to be offered in EV form for things to really take off IMO.

Zubeneschamali

monkeysnapper wrote: »

But what about the point that people with less money would want one of these , but untill these come at a reasonable 2nd hand price they cant

True enough, so now the Leaf starts at starting at €25K, it should be worth 5K in about 10 years. What'll the range be on half-knackered 10-year-old batteries? How much will replacements cost?

Anyhow, if EVs ever become mass-market, the Government will have to tax the crap out of them to make up for lost petrol excise and VAT. The current regime of incentives and zero tax on running costs can only last while EVs are niche toys.

beazee

@MaxPower1

You looking at it wrong. Compare new car to new car.
Cumulatives of buying new and consumption goes as follows:

new -> 1 year -> 2nd -> 3rd -> 4th -> 5th
Petrol: 20K -> 22K -> 24K -> 26K -> 28K -> 30K
Leaf: 25K -> 25.2K -> 25.4K -> 25.6K -> 25.8K -> 26K

Leaf - 4k saved at the end of 5y and another 2K every each year after.

Joe 90

TBH, I reckon the early adapters will be those with the Prius mindset who can live with the limited range. I would reckon that most people who can live with the limited range and who would buy them on the running cost angle will wait to see just how cheap they are to run over life of a battery and of course how they will be treated tax wise if they do sell in any quantity.

No matter how good batteries are their life will be finite and the government is not going to stand for any significant loss in taxation on fuel or road tax.

Zubeneschamali

Anan1 wrote: »

how many people actually regularly need the range of an ICE, as opposed to just not wanting to give up the comfort blanket?

Lots of people with cars don't need a car at all. If you do the sums and budget for all the real costs of car ownership, lots of low-mileage folks would save money by taking taxis everywhere. But who wants to? Having a car is freedom. You can go anywhere at the drop of a hat without any planning.

Leonard Hofstadter

Exactly, you can be sure that road pricing will kick in (especially as I heard yesterday that they are considering introducing speed limiters to cars, so this would go hand in hand:mad:), and car tax will go massively up if/when EVs or alternative fuel vehicles become popular. They'll have to get their money back somehow I'm afraid!

Sesshoumaru

Elessar wrote: »

I think the general public still has massive range anxiety when it comes to EVs.

I know I do. Even though I only do on average, 100 miles a week. I don't want the possibility of running out of power too far from a charge point or the hassle of worrying about things like that everytime I get into the car. I'm probably exaggerating and in real life it wouldn't actually be as bad, but the fear is still there. Battery tech needs a massive jump and we need batteries that will last 300+ miles on a single charge. Or range extending ICEs that will power the batteries.

I think aswell, for mainstream takeup, more manufacturers will need to start offering the big sellers in electric form. The Golf, the avensis, the passat, the focus, the 3 series etc.

Once that happens, and the price isn't insanely higher than ICE models, EVs will start to take off.

Personally, as a 26 year old guy, the Leaf isn't really the type of car I'd buy. Lookswise it doesn't appeal to me. I bought a brand new Golf Edition-R this year, because, among many other things, I love the look of it. Popular mainstream models need to be offered in EV form for things to really take off IMO.

The new Golf has been designed from the ground up with traditional, hybrid and EV powertrain in mind.

http://wot.motortrend.com/not-a-golf-cart-volkswagen-e-golf-test-fleet-set-to-launch-in-u-s-181869.html

Expect it on sale here in Europe early next year. The new Ford Focus electric is already on sale in the US now and should reach us some time over the next year. Renault have the Fluence ZE for sale today as well. Lets not forget the Nissan Leaf is from a mainstream manufacturer as well. Mainstream is already here.

After 1 week of owning and driving a Nissan Leaf you will not have range anxiety anymore. My wife and I have covered over 24,000 kilometers since April 21st 2011. We are comfortable with the range of the car and for us living in the Dublin area, there are a lot of fast charging points in operation. I covered a lot of these types of issues previously, take a look at this older post

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

My family and I have a Nissan Leaf. My wife and I have two young daughters and we got rid of both our old ICE cars in order to get a Nissan Leaf. We've had it over 3 months now and have done more than 7500km in it. It is our only car and it meets my families needs very well.

*SNIP*

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=73691736&postcount=21

Mr Benevolent

Price on the Nissan website is still €30,595.

Sesshoumaru

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Lots of people with cars don't need a car at all. If you do the sums and budget for all the real costs of car ownership, lots of low-mileage folks would save money by taking taxis everywhere. But who wants to? Having a car is freedom. You can go anywhere at the drop of a hat without any planning.

Reading this board daily you would swear *most* people think a car in Ireland is an absolute necessity

Speaking of freedom. I spend less time having to charge my car, as I only need to plug it in at home, no queuing on a weekly basis in a petrol station to get fuel, no queuing to pay the cashier etc. When I want to take the family out for a spin somewhere at the weekend I don't have to worry about the fuel costs of doing so. I have more freedom now with an EV than I did with my old ICE car.

Sesshoumaru

Confab wrote: »

Price on the Nissan website is still €30,595.