How to revive the Irish language.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

dubhthach wrote: »

Sure but when I type Munich into my gps I'm not discommoded when the road sign says München

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/1383944_2399131907588_950004541_n.jpg

Fair point, but English is not an official language of Gemany. From a practical point of view, Munich is a bit bigger than An Dinghean,

dubhthach wrote: »

Road signs such as this:
http://www.lexiophiles.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/brussels-2.png

I'd be perfectly happy if they were all in the one language, but hey I tend to read the ones in Italic first, strange quirk of mine.

Of course if you don't like it why don't ye not go bother your TD's that's what they are there for listening to their constituents every little pet-issue instead of doing important things such as say legislating.

Predominantly because I got the **** out and it petty crap like this doesn't bother me any more. The hypocricy of it, though, not to mention the arrogance is a but rich, though, not to mention a bit of an own-goal considering not only the potential impact on tourism but also to promotino of the Irish langauge to non-speakers.

Siosleis

Well, Interest In History(ironic name), how exactly does the Irish language affect you and your day to day life? This language that is older than English, has given us our placenames and funny ways, our culture and identity,and yet is somehow still spoken in parts of the country?It is quite the Jack Russell of languages in a way...or should I use tbe stereotypical image of a wolfhound?

Interest in History

Siosleis wrote: »

Well, Interest In History(ironic name), how exactly does the Irish language affect you and your day to day life? This language that is older than English, has given us our placenames and funny ways, our culture and identity,and yet is somehow still spoken in parts of the country?It is quite the Jack Russell of languages in a way...or should I use tbe stereotypical image of a wolfhound?

I don't experience, and as an adult have never experienced, Irish as the vernacular of my environment. Therefore I'm mainly aware of it only in the context of state policy. That policy is riddled with shams, scams, falsehoods and compulsion and is BAD. And the vast gulf between the crude Revivalist project of the politicians and the manifest language choice of the people is VERY BAD.

What is GOOD is that people who choose to use Irish, or Polish, or Arabic
should be accommodated in the schools and in society in general. Variety is enriching, and that is what is embedded in our history and 'identity'. In addition to Gaelic origens our names include: Harold, Sigerson and Sorensen (Norse); The prefix 'Fitz' is Norman; Green, Brown and Black are English; Blanche, Champ, O'Olier, La Touche are Huguenot; Goldberg and Wolfson are Jewish.

Three cheers for the Irish people as they are and an end to pretending that they should be something else.

Curly Judge

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Fair point, but English is not an official language of Gemany. From a practical point of view, Munich is a bit bigger than An Dinghean,

Predominantly because I got the **** out and it petty crap like this doesn't bother me any more. The hypocricy of it, though, not to mention the arrogance is a but rich, though, not to mention a bit of an own-goal considering not only the potential impact on tourism but also to promotino of the Irish langauge to non-speakers.

The trouble with the Irish language is that it is, to my ear, an unattractive guttural tongue unless spoken by a good native speaker with clear diction.
I was driven around Inishmore recently by a local guide and it was a joy to listen to him as he switched effortlessly between English, beautiful Irish and even some French.
Contrast that with the struggling, stuttering effort that Newstalk trot out as if to fill some mandatory quota or the pathetic mumblings of most of our political representatives.
The stolid, catholic,humourless, Patrick Pearse type curriculum hasn't helped either.

Iwasfrozen

Curly Judge wrote: »

The trouble with the Irish language is that it is, to my ear, an unattractive guttural tongue unless spoken by a good native speaker with clear diction.
I was driven around Inishmore recently by a local guide and it was a joy to listen to him as he switched effortlessly between English, beautiful Irish and even some French.
Contrast that with the struggling, stuttering effort that Newstalk trot out as if to fill some mandatory quota or the pathetic mumblings of most of our political representatives.
The stolid, catholic,humourless, Patrick Pearse type curriculum hasn't helped either.

The Irish they use on RTE sounds awful. Gutteral, horrible pronunciation.

Interest in History

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The Irish they use on RTE sounds awful. Gutteral, horrible pronunciation.

We should be tolerant of people who speak any language as their second. But having said that, I think that the RTE people do pretty well on pronunciation.

A person whose mother tongue is English instinctively dislikes some sounds that are used in Gaelic and is slow to reproduce them. English does not have the distinction between 'narrow' and 'broad' consonents for example, or that 'gutteral' sound you dislike.

many Irish people solve the problem by speaking Irish using English phonetics.

Iwasfrozen

Interest in History wrote: »

We should be tolerant of people who speak any language as their second. But having said that, I think that the RTE people do pretty well on pronunciation.

A person whose mother tongue is English instinctively dislikes some sounds that are used in Gaelic and is slow to reproduce them. English does not have the distinction between 'narrow' and 'broad' consonents for example, or that 'gutteral' sound you dislike.

many Irish people solve the problem by speaking Irish using English phonetics.

That's not really what I'm on about, there are guttural sounds in German and French that I barely notice. Similarly I wouldn't notice with a native Irish speaker from the west. But the Dublin speakers on RTE seem to exaggerate the sounds more then a native speaker. It's almost like an Irish version of the D4 accent.

An Coilean

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

http://www.coimisineir.ie/index.php?page=trafficsigns&lang=english&tid=42

I asked you what part of what law was being breached. You put up this quote referencing the Traffic Signs Manual.

The Irish language provisions for traffic signs under the Traffic Signs Manual are provisions of an enactment relating to the status or use of Irish. This means that An Coimisinéir Teanga has statutory authority to investigate complaints regarding problems with the use of Irish or lack of Irish on traffic signs.

Am I to take it that you are under the impression that the provisions of the Traffic Signs Manual are being breached by Roadsigns showing Gaeltacht Placenames in Irish only?

If that is so, then you have not done your research very well, on the page you provided a link to, there is a link to a document explaining clearly how Irish is to be used on Traffic Signs under the provisions of the Traffic Signs Manual, and it states:

Placenames on Information Signs

It is a statutory requirement that placenames on information
signs be in both Irish and English except:

• In Gaeltacht areas, where the names of places should be
in Irish only.

• Where the spelling of a placename is similar in both
languages, in which case only the Irish form of the name

should be shown (Chapter 1.1.48 of the Manual).

Do you now accept that you are wrong, or is this farce of a debate going to be continued further?

Ah, not that wasnt' what you said when this first came up for discussion - in fact, you proclaimed the guy to have been "arrested" for trying to speak Irish.

It has been my position from the start, good luck finding anything I have posted on the issue that contradicts this. The man was indeed arrested for speaking Irish. That arrest came about because the Gardaí as an organisation failed in its obligation to put a system in place to deal with members of the Public through Irish. The individual Garda is not obliged to deal with a member of the public through Irish, but the Gardaí as an organisation are obliged to deal with the Public through Irish. It is not the fault of the individual Garda on the ground that a system to deal with this was not in place or that he had not recieved any training or instruction for what to do if a member of the Public choose to conduct their businsss through Irish.
He was wrong in to arrest someone for choosing to do their business through Irish, but it is hardly his fault that he was left in a position that he did not know what the appropriate course of action was in that situation.

Not living in Ireland, but if that;s the case then the Commission definitely isn;t doing his job.

He is trying, but the legal framework he is working in is not very effective, while the signs are in breach of the law, he can not give a blanket instruction to all public bodies that they are to be replaced, he can only investigate a matter when he recieves a complaint, ie, on a case by case basis. The public body in question will then usually admit that they are in breach of the law but claim that there is nothing they can do about it becuase they don't have the resources to replace the signs.
He has already investigated several local authorities, Ennis Town Council for example, and put in place recomendations that they put together a list of all the signs that are in breach of the law and have a plan to replace them over time as resources become available, which they have aggreed to, there are hundreds of other authorities that would have to be investigated and worked with to put similar agreements in place.
Even in the case of Ennis town council which does have such a plan in place, it is going to be merged into Clare county council next year, and An Comisinéir does not have the power to impose the agreement with Ennis town council onto the County Council which would be responsible for implementing it.
Its a mess.

An Coilean

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The problem isn't with Irish place names being used, it's with the double standard that's being set where signposts in the English speaking part of Ireland have to be bilingual but those in the Irish speaking part don't. Imagine the same scenario in Belgium or Canada.

That is essentially how it works in Canada.

Federal Government is Bilingual, but in Quebec, everything is in French, and services available in English are quite limited.

SEPT 23 1989

this is still going on:eek:

Curly Judge

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

this is still going on:eek:

O'Cuiv and his merry band of zealots had no bother finding the money and use it to try to eradicate the name Dingle from the map.
When faced with the democratic vote of the local people, demanding its revocation ,he suddenly found that he had lost his wallet.
It's this kind of cute hoorism, more than anything, that puts people off and leaves a bad taste in the mouth of people who might otherwise be well disposed to the landuage.

Iwasfrozen

An Coilean wrote: »

That is essentially how it works in Canada.

Federal Government is Bilingual, but in Quebec, everything is in French, and services available in English are quite limited.

Well if that's the route you want to go down I wouldn't mind confining Irish to the gaeltacht in the slightest.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Curly Judge wrote: »

The trouble with the Irish language is that it is, to my ear, an unattractive guttural tongue unless spoken by a good native speaker with clear diction.
I was driven around Inishmore recently by a local guide and it was a joy to listen to him as he switched effortlessly between English, beautiful Irish and even some French.
Contrast that with the struggling, stuttering effort that Newstalk trot out as if to fill some mandatory quota or the pathetic mumblings of most of our political representatives.
The stolid, catholic,humourless, Patrick Pearse type curriculum hasn't helped either.

Indeed not. I'm pretty neutral where the Irish language is concerned, but it does itself no favours.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

An Coilean wrote: »

I asked you what part of what law was being breached. You put up this quote referencing the Traffic Signs Manual.



Am I to take it that you are under the impression that the provisions of the Traffic Signs Manual are being breached by Roadsigns showing Gaeltacht Placenames in Irish only?

If that is so, then you have not done your research very well, on the page you provided a link to, there is a link to a document explaining clearly how Irish is to be used on Traffic Signs under the provisions of the Traffic Signs Manual, and it states:




Do you now accept that you are wrong, or is this farce of a debate going to be continued further?

Point taken, but are you telling me that a public state service is available in one langauge only? Why can't I engage with the State via these roadsigns in the langauge of my choice?

It has been my position from the start, good luck finding anything I have posted on the issue that contradicts this. The man was indeed arrested for speaking Irish. That arrest came about because the Gardaí as an organisation failed in its obligation to put a system in place to deal with members of the Public through Irish. The individual Garda is not obliged to deal with a member of the public through Irish, but the Gardaí as an organisation are obliged to deal with the Public through Irish. It is not the fault of the individual Garda on the ground that a system to deal with this was not in place or that he had not recieved any training or instruction for what to do if a member of the Public choose to conduct their businsss through Irish.
He was wrong in to arrest someone for choosing to do their business through Irish, but it is hardly his fault that he was left in a position that he did not know what the appropriate course of action was in that situation.

We've been over this - he was arrested for refusing an order from the Gardai, not for "speaking Irish". One will get you arrested every time; the other happens every day all over the country and generally attracts no attention from the police. If it did, there'd be police at every school in the country arresting classrooms full of kids.

As neither of us were there, netiehr of us can comment beyond this point.

Interest in History

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

That's not really what I'm on about, there are guttural sounds in German and French that I barely notice. Similarly I wouldn't notice with a native Irish speaker from the west. But the Dublin speakers on RTE seem to exaggerate the sounds more then a native speaker. It's almost like an Irish version of the D4 accent.

You may well be right. I hadn't thought of it before. Maybe it's the over-compensation of English speakers who have Irish as a learned language and are making a special effort to use the unfamiliar sounds properly. Anyway - for me they're OK

An Coilean

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Point taken, but are you telling me that a public state service is available in one langauge only? Why can't I engage with the State via these roadsigns in the langauge of my choice?

That would be because the state has taken the decision that the Anglacisation of the Irish language placenames of those areas will no longer be recognised as official placenames.
People may think of those Anglacisations as being the name of the place, but they are not officially recognised as being such, somewhat like Munich in Germany, its known as Munich in English, but that is not an officialy recognised Placename and does not appear on roadsigns.

We've been over this - he was arrested for refusing an order from the Gardai, not for "speaking Irish". One will get you arrested every time; the other happens every day all over the country and generally attracts no attention from the police. If it did, there'd be police at every school in the country arresting classrooms full of kids.

As neither of us were there, netiehr of us can comment beyond this point.

I am not claiming that speaking Irish is treated as a crime, I am saying that the guy's choice to use Irish when conducting his business with the Guard is what lead to his arrest.
There was an official investigation by An Coimisinéir Teanga and it was found that the guy's choice to use Irish in conducting his business is what lead to his arrest and that had he chosen to use English instead, he would not have been arrested. The Gardaí as an organisation were found to have failed in their obligation to deal with the public through their choice of official language.

An Coilean

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Well if that's the route you want to go down I wouldn't mind confining Irish to the gaeltacht in the slightest.

Good luck with that.

Iwasfrozen

An Coilean wrote: »

Good luck with that.

Why wish me luck? I didn't say I was going to lobby for it. We're talking in theory here. That should be obvious from any conversation on revival.

An Coilean

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Why wish me luck?

If that is what you would like to see happen, you are going to need an awful lot of it.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

An Coilean wrote: »

I am not claiming that speaking Irish is treated as a crime, I am saying that the guy's choice to use Irish when conducting his business with the Guard is what lead to his arrest.
There was an official investigation by An Coimisinéir Teanga and it was found that the guy's choice to use Irish in conducting his business is what lead to his arrest and that had he chosen to use English instead, he would not have been arrested. The Gardaí as an organisation were found to have failed in their obligation to deal with the public through their choice of official language.

"Making a choice" leads to every arest.

Anyway, it goes back to the double standards I mentioned earlier (for the record - I kind of agree with you here and I can see your point: but it's hardly fair to say one person has been wronged and another hasn't because bilingualism was not available) - either we have the right to conduct our lives with the state as taxpaers in English or in Irish; or we do not.

it's not a case of "oh, well, people in certain areas don't have to abey this one".

shruikan2553

An Coilean wrote: »

I am not claiming that speaking Irish is treated as a crime, I am saying that the guy's choice to use Irish when conducting his business with the Guard is what lead to his arrest.
There was an official investigation by An Coimisinéir Teanga and it was found that the guy's choice to use Irish in conducting his business is what lead to his arrest and that had he chosen to use English instead, he would not have been arrested. The Gardaí as an organisation were found to have failed in their obligation to deal with the public through their choice of official language.

What was the garda meant to do? Let him go? He took him back to the station so they could get a garda to communicate in Irish. He wanted to use Irish and that is exactly what he got. Did this person speak English? I would consider not making a reasonable effort in engaging with the gardai as wasting their time. I speak English but if I get pulled over should I just use sign language? Maybe even interpretive dance. People love to have their rights and ignore any responsibilities like not wasting police time.

Iwasfrozen

An Coilean wrote: »

If that is what you would like to see happen, you are going to need an awful lot of it.

Why did you cut off the rest of my post? I wrote I wasn't going to lobby for it so why wish me luck? We're only talking in theory here and that should be self evident in any discussion on Iris revival.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

this is still going on:eek:

No one's revived or killed it yet :pac:

Siosleis

Interest in History wrote: »

I don't experience, and as an adult have never experienced, Irish as the vernacular of my environment. Therefore I'm mainly aware of it only in the context of state policy. That policy is riddled with shams, scams, falsehoods and compulsion and is BAD. And the vast gulf between the crude Revivalist project of the politicians and the manifest language choice of the people is VERY BAD.

What is GOOD is that people who choose to use Irish, or Polish, or Arabic
should be accommodated in the schools and in society in general. Variety is enriching, and that is what is embedded in our history and 'identity'. In addition to Gaelic origens our names include: Harold, Sigerson and Sorensen (Norse); The prefix 'Fitz' is Norman; Green, Brown and Black are English; Blanche, Champ, O'Olier, La Touche are Huguenot; Goldberg and Wolfson are Jewish.

Three cheers for the Irish people as they are and an end to pretending that they should be something else.

I am aware that the Vikings, the Normans, the Spanish, the Angles, the Saxons, the British, the Hugenouts,the Germans etc etc have visited our shores. You would have to wonder why did they? Also you would have to marvel at the barbarian language still existing as a day to day language in some parts of Ireland?
Will someday add language as one of the basic human rights perhaps?
What?!It's already there in the charter?Well tear it up! I speak the majority language, therefore I am right and you idiots who speak a second unimportant to me language can squirm under my shoe.

mad muffin

Irish is dead. It just doesn't know it yet...

Interest in History

Siosleis wrote: »

I am aware that the Vikings, the Normans, the Spanish, the Angles, the Saxons, the British, the Hugenouts,the Germans etc etc have visited our shores. .....

Not just 'visited our shores'. They joined in the mix of what is to-day our national community.

Our national vernacular is English is because we need it as part of the tool-kit of living in the modern world. If some people who, while being English-speakers, use another language in specialised contexts - more power to them!

Problems only arise when one of those small groups acquires the political power to impose their specialised language on everybody else. That was true of Irish but even that problem is gradually going away.

Seaneh

Re:Saving the Irish language, as I said months ago;

Seaneh wrote: »

If they want to save it they need to completely change how it's thought in schools (and how other languaged are tohught in shcools for that matter).

As it is, you are thought to pass an exam, not actualyl speak the language, it's like ****ing everything else in this country, appearances are more important than reality.

It should be completely conversational, no written exams at all. What's the ****ing point in knowing grammar rules if you have no actual idea what you are saying when you recite off the few lines that are drilled into you so you can pass tha Aurals/Orals?


Same should be done for French/German/Spanish.

Seaneh

Interest in History wrote: »

Our national vernacular is English is because we need it as part of the tool-kit of living in the modern world.

That's ****ing nonsense.

There are countries, not far from Ireland of comparable size Ireland in population, which survive just fine in the modern world without English, German, French of Spanish being their national language.


English is our first language because of the penal laws and the repression of Irish culture under British rule, saying otherwise is a load of bollocks.

MJ23

The waste of resouces on teaching this dead language. They could spend their time better on teaching Spanish, French, German etc. Languages that people will actually use.
Learning Irish is about as useful as learning how to knit a bicycle.

An Coilean

MJ23 wrote: »

The waste of resouces on teaching this dead language. They could spend their time better on teaching Spanish, French, German etc. Languages that people will actually use.
Learning Irish is about as useful as learning how to knit a bicycle.

Its fairly usefull for those who want a future in the media.