How to revive the Irish language.

feargale

There have been cases of foreign visitors consulting maps in Gaeltacht areas, and seeing names on roadsigns that corresponded to nothing on their maps. It's difficult to see what benefit that state of affairs affords the Irish language, and it certainly does no practical service to visitors.
Incidentally I missed the first half or more of this thread, but on perusing a few of the early posts, I'm curious to know how a thread that began with a send up morphed into a serious debate.

An Coilean

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Most towns in Ireland have names translated from Irish. Like I said "By that logic you'd have to re name every town in the country."

Well, again its hardily 'renaming' and the order is for Gaeltachts, not areas outside of the Gaeltacht.
I dont see the dificulty in getting that.

An Coilean

feargale wrote: »

There have been cases of foreign visitors consulting maps in Gaeltacht areas, and seeing names on roadsigns that corresponded to nothing on their maps. It's difficult to see what benefit that state of affairs affords the Irish language, and it certainly does no practical service to visitors.
Incidentally I missed the first half or more of this thread, but on perusing a few of the early posts, I'm curious to know how a thread that began with a send up morphed into a serious debate.

I would hope that the private map makers would have the sense to stop using out of date information. All new OSI maps have the correct info on them.

mackerski

An Coilean wrote: »

I would hope that the private map makers would have the sense to stop using out of date information. All new OSI maps have the correct info on them.

As long as there are plenty of people in the country (or world) who know a place as Dingle or Maam Cross those names will not be out of date. If a minister or you or anybody else wants to tell us that we shouldn't or mustn't use such names then we will have learned something unpleasant about human nature.

Curly Judge

An Coilean wrote: »

I would hope that the private map makers would have the sense to stop using out of date information. All new OSI maps have the correct info on them.

How would a German tourist discover that he wanted to go to Ath Cinn in the first place?

dubhthach

Curly Judge wrote: »

How would a German tourist discover that he wanted to go to Ath Cinn in the first place?

Why would any tourist want to go there in the first place? The only thing that's interesting about the area is the endemic Cryptosporidium.

Iwasfrozen

An Coilean wrote: »

In general yes, his role is to ensure that the public has access to public services in both languages, in reality there are no public services that are not already available in English. (If you can find one I am sure he would be delighted to help you, even of only for the sheer novility of it)

I can think of one. Signposts in the Gaelteacht.

Iwasfrozen

An Coilean wrote: »

Well, again its hardily 'renaming' and the order is for Gaeltachts, not areas outside of the Gaeltacht.
I dont see the dificulty in getting that.

It is renaming. And I know it's for Gaeltachts, hence "By that logic you'd have to re name every town in the country."

FurQyou

Make it read and sound exactly like english.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

An Coilean wrote: »

What is being Breached? What part of what law?
Clearly it is not the Official Languages Act as the power to put in place a Placenames order comes from that act.

The Irish language provisions for traffic signs under the Traffic Signs Manual are provisions of an enactment relating to the status or use of Irish. This means that An Coimisinéir Teanga has statutory authority to investigate complaints regarding problems with the use of Irish or lack of Irish on traffic signs.

http://www.coimisineir.ie/index.php?page=trafficsigns&lang=english&tid=42

Monolingual Guards are OK. The Gardaí as an organisation not being able to deal with the public through Irish when requested is not. The problem is not with any individual Garda.The organisation has an obligation to deal with the public through Irish as well as English, not each individual Garda, the organisation was in breach of its obligations to serve the public in both official languages by not having any system in place to deal with a member of the public through Irish when they wished to use Irish in carrying out their business.
The language rights of the person in that incident were breached because the Gardaí as an organisation were found to be unable to deal with him through his choice of official language. Its not the fault of the individual Garda on the ground.

Ah, not that wasnt' what you said when this first came up for discussion - in fact, you proclaimed the guy to have been "arrested" for trying to speak Irish.

If? IF? Open your eyes the next time you leave the house, there are thousands of roadsigns in English only in every county in Ireland, and they are all in breach of the law.

Not living in Ireland, but if that;s the case then the Commission definitely isn;t doing his job.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

An Coilean wrote: »

I would hope that the private map makers would have the sense to stop using out of date information. All new OSI maps have the correct info on them.

If the maps are bought in a foreign country, that's unlikley to be the case. Anyway, if the can;t be found by tourists, they're shooting the,selves in the foot and then trying to blame the bullet.

dubhthach

FurQyou wrote: »

Make it read and sound exactly like english.

Shán Ó Cuív proposed that very idea over 100 years ago (the spelling anyways). He called his system "An Litriú Shimplí" He went so far to change the spelling of his name from Seán Ó Caoimh .

Plenty of talk about his grandson on this thread.

dubhthach

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

If the maps are bought in a foreign country, that's unlikley to be the case. Anyway, if the can;t be found by tourists, they're shooting the,selves in the foot and then trying to blame the bullet.

People still buy maps?

Birroc

dubhthach wrote: »

People still buy maps?

Shops and service stations still sell them.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

dubhthach wrote: »

People still buy maps?

I believe, so, yes; although if you have, say, a German sat-nav, I have no idea what langauge the placenames in the Gaeltacht will be in.

DonkeyStyle \o/

I've never even bought a map.

dubhthach

DonkeyStyle \o/ wrote: »

I've never even bought a map.

I did once back in 1998 or thereabouts, simpler times!

dubhthach

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I believe, so, yes; although if you have, say, a German sat-nav, I have no idea what langauge the placenames in the Gaeltacht will be in.

Sure but when I type Munich into my gps I'm not discommoded when the road sign says München

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/1383944_2399131907588_950004541_n.jpg

nabanoga

I'm Irish, I have a very small bit of Gaeilge even after doing it at honours level in Leaving (many years ago), which I never use. I wish I knew more, I wish it was easier and less embarrassing to use the bit I have but the reality is we are are now an English speaking country. But there are still people in this country that are born into Gaelic speaking regions, where there are no jobs and they are forced to leave to get a third level education and decent work. Maybe more of an effort should be made to preserve the language there. It would be absolutely shameful if it died out as a living language. There would be no one to blame but ourselves if we were the ones to let it die out completely, horrifying for us as a nation, we usually prefer to have someone else to blame!

Iwasfrozen

dubhthach wrote: »

Sure but when I type Munich into my gps I'm not discommoded when the road sign says München

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/1383944_2399131907588_950004541_n.jpg

The problem isn't with Irish place names being used, it's with the double standard that's being set where signposts in the English speaking part of Ireland have to be bilingual but those in the Irish speaking part don't. Imagine the same scenario in Belgium or Canada.

DonkeyStyle \o/

dubhthach wrote: »

I did once back in 1998 or thereabouts, simpler times!

God I know, sure you'd be lost without one.
Amazing nowadays though, if you're trying to find somewhere new you can have a virtual walk around the area and pick out landmarks ahead of time.
It's highly convenient, but at the same time, it does rob some of the adventure out of life. It's a bit like motorways I find, where you bypass all the interesting little towns you might otherwise stop at on your journey. When I was a kid, we'd holiday in Ireland, and it really was an adventure setting off across the country. Stopping in towns along the way, checking the map and even taking wrong turns and having to improvise some new route... that is, if you could figure out where you were! Bloody sign posts turned around the wrong way too by some joker, remember the old black/white signposts on the pole? What a design flaw.

dubhthach

DonkeyStyle \o/ wrote: »

God I know, sure you'd be lost without one.
Amazing nowadays though, if you're trying to find somewhere new you can have a virtual walk around the area and pick out landmarks ahead of time.
It's highly convenient, but at the same time, it does rob some of the adventure out of life. It's a bit like motorways I find, where you bypass all the interesting little towns you might otherwise stop at on your journey. When I was a kid, we'd holiday in Ireland, and it really was an adventure setting off across the country. Stopping in towns along the way, checking the map and even taking wrong turns and having to improvise some new route... that is, if you could figure out where you were! Bloody sign posts turned around the wrong way too by some joker, remember the old black/white signposts on the pole? What a design flaw.

Well there are alternative routes signposts on the motorways, though why someone would want to get off the M6 (for example) and drive through Moate is beyond me, it use to take an hour to crawl through Moate and I never want to see to experience the sight of that place again.

dubhthach

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The problem isn't with Irish place names being used, it's with the double standard that's being set where signposts in the English speaking part of Ireland have to be bilingual but those in the Irish speaking part don't. Imagine the same scenario in Belgium or Canada.

Road signs such as this:
http://www.lexiophiles.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/brussels-2.png

I'd be perfectly happy if they were all in the one language, but hey I tend to read the ones in Italic first, strange quirk of mine.

Of course if you don't like it why don't ye not go bother your TD's that's what they are there for listening to their constituents every little pet-issue instead of doing important things such as say legislating.

Iwasfrozen

dubhthach wrote: »

Road signs such as this:
http://www.lexiophiles.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/brussels-2.png

That's the one.

dubhthach wrote: »

I'd be perfectly happy if they were all in the one language, but hey I tend to read the ones in Italic first, strange quirk of mine.

Of course if you don't like it why don't ye not go bother your TD's that's what they are there for listening to their constituents every little pet-issue instead of doing important things such as say legislating.

That is a quirk, most people don't. And I don't contact my TD because he would have no power in this matter any way so what would be the point?

Way to totally avoid the issue btw. Very impressive, you could almost be a politician.

Siosleis

I like the Irish language signs to be honest, it reminds me that I'm home in Ireland.I've often driven from Holyhead to London and seeing the Welsh signs really made it obvious that you were not in England.The Welsh are not ashamed of their other language so why should we be?
Also, as far as I know there are other areas in Ireland who actually DO use Irish as a day to day language.
But of course people from Dublin already know that.

feargale

dubhthach wrote:

Road signs such as this:
http://www.lexiophiles.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/brussels-2.png[\quote]

There's one just like that in a village in Co. Monaghan close to the border. Guess which language is blacked out. I really don't know what point the Belgium photo makes. It's not clear whether its posting implies approval or disapproval of illegality,

dubhthach wrote:

Of course if you don't like it why don't ye not go bother your TD's that's what they are there for listening to their constituents every little pet-issue instead of doing important things such as say legislating.

What a silly suggestion. Some people here are arguing for a change in the law. Agree or disagree with them, to suggest that they do something which you clearly disapprove of smacks of a schoolboy prank.

policarp

A lot of Spanish schoolchildren are more or less forced to learn english.

In the Valencian region, children are given two or three hours of english lessons.
Compulsory I think.
Anglicisation or Americanization ?

Interest in History

mackerski wrote: »

As long as there are plenty of people in the country (or world) who know a place as Dingle or Maam Cross those names will not be out of date. If a minister or you or anybody else wants to tell us that we shouldn't or mustn't use such names then we will have learned something unpleasant about human nature.

Consider it learned! Or at least the unpleasant need of the post-1922 Irish politicians to find a brand for themselves.

Probably to distract attention from the fact that in practical matters they couldn't organise three ducks into a duckhouse.

Interest in History

Siosleis wrote: »

I like the Irish language signs to be honest, it reminds me that I'm home in Ireland. .......

Actually, most people in Ireland already know that they're in Ireland, but as you say, demonstrating that is the point of having Irish on road signs. Which has nothing to do with being guided to a destination. It's a form of brand imaging to show that this is politically a different place to England.

(Nor has it anything to do with the population speaking Irish, of course.)

Interest in History

nabanoga wrote: »

I'm Irish, I have a very small bit of Gaeilge even after doing it at honours level in Leaving (many years ago), which I never use. I wish I knew more, I wish it was easier and less embarrassing to use the bit I have but the reality is we are are now an English speaking country. But there are still people in this country that are born into Gaelic speaking regions, where there are no jobs and they are forced to leave to get a third level education and decent work. Maybe more of an effort should be made to preserve the language there. It would be absolutely shameful if it died out as a living language. There would be no one to blame but ourselves if we were the ones to let it die out completely, horrifying for us as a nation, we usually prefer to have someone else to blame!

Well: obviously, you are not to blame, nor anybody else who like you is a born and bred English-speaker. Those of us who have English as our mother tongue simply keep going as we are.

Naturally we feel no shame in this. Why do you think that we should?