LVP Thermodynamic solar Panels

Gosub

shane0007 wrote: »

For example, here's my upto date running costs for the NUOS.

Hi Shane,
Thanks for the info, great stuff, keep it up.

On your file there are quite a few days with zero cost. I can understand the block of zeros could be a holiday period, but there are individual zeros, or very small cents. Do you have a reason for these?

shane0007

It would really depend upon whether or not the LVP is a modulating heat pump or not. If not, it will run at full output for as long as there is a demand which is very inefficient & not good for the heat pump.
If it is modulating, then the output will suit the demand like the NUOS does. Going my some of Braka's comments, I think the LVP is indeed modulating.

shane0007

Gosub wrote: »

Hi Shane,
Thanks for the info, great stuff, keep it up.

On your file there are quite a few days with zero cost. I can understand the block of zeros could be a holiday period, but there are individual zeros, or very small cents. Do you have a reason for these?

Yes the first block of zeros is when we had the really good weather. My solar panels met all of my demands. The second block of zeros was a fault with Efergy. Their server had an issue & my IP had to be reset so I lost about a week or so of information. You can take the readings either side of that period & add to the total as the wether was fairly crap then.
The odd low usage was when the solar gain was up so the HP only came on for short period each day.

What I have found was when we had some really bad weather the HP was on for about 2 hours. In really good weather, not at all & in ok weather about 2 hours per day.

It will be a better take of my system when we get into the winter period as this will give a more accurate results when solar gain is fairly non-existent.

Overall, I think I prefer the NUOS. I have more control over what it does & when it runs. It is also much cheaper than the LVP as there is no panel on the roof.

Condenser

shane0007 wrote: »

It would really depend upon whether or not the LVP is a modulating heat pump or not. If not, it will run at full output for as long as there is a demand which is very inefficient & not good for the heat pump.
If it is modulating, then the output will suit the demand like the NUOS does. Going my some of Braka's comments, I think the LVP is indeed modulating.

LVP panels are not modulating. Modulation is not a requirement for hot water production and only adds a small amount to the efficiency of a heating system over a direct on compressor. The main advantages are meant to be in compressor life and start up current. The first point has yet to be proven while the second is only an issue is larger machines and a category that LVP wouldn't fall in to.

braka

deeno1975 wrote: »

Following the lively and informative discussions.

Just a thought, if the Energie (LVP) system was only turned on at certain times of the night and the metering was changed to night rate, wouldn't the cost of running of the system be effectively halved (depending on your suppliers rate). The tank stores 280 litres of hot water so in theory (given 2 to 4 people in a house) this supply should not run out during an average day. The 3 questions I have are;

1. Is there any down side from timing the Energie system to power up at certain times. Would this affect the compressor etc.. my gut feel is not??

2. Will the cold water coming into the tank quickly cool the hot water reserve or over a 12 hour period it wont make much difference??

3. Is the fact that it is now running at night reduce the efficiency or COP gain so in fact the gains from a cheaper electricity rate are offset by running the system at night??

Hi Deena....apologies I din't respond sooner..away on a few days deserved hols...now recharged!!! Pity I didn't get a chance to knock off the Thermodynamic system and see how long things took to get back to normal, ... see how much electricity was used etc... but house was looked after by family!!
so maybe next time.

I was reading the responses to your questions and am not going to repeat the many contributions but my opinion would be that this switching off/on might not be a good thing.... for one thing Legionnaires would be my big concern!
Water in the Energie Thermodynamic system is kept heated to 55deg C. and having it switched off during day periods could mean lower water temps...so not good in my view.

Another thing I notice is that some contributors have problems with the Energie systems running for 6 hrs per day (and longer in winter).
Can anyone tell me how long your domestic refrigerator runs each day?
I hadn't thought too much about this myself, but last week our family decided that since our "fridge" of 33 years was constantly icing up and couldn't be controlled properly, it was decided to purchase a new one.
How many hours/day has that fridge being run???....nobody knows..
How many times/day was the door opened (and sometimes left ajar) by family?? and it was only in the past month the severe icing problem materialised...
What I'm saying is that it appears as if these compressors can run for hours...and they are not new technology so one would imagine they have figured out how to get the max efficiency out of them...
our fridge wasn't situated in a cool area of the house either..so it's unknown what electricity it used during its lifetime....
(BTW I still have it in the shed...and I have a use for its nice shelves!!!)

Also..Is this a record age for a fridge? I'm sure there are older ones out there?

As I see it, the Energie system is a fridge (but in reverse) ... compressor and all the bits are there ....and judging by the fact that these systems are working in other countries must mean they got something right especially if the Germans are using them!

Just checked our Energie system now ...its purring away using 436 watts!! As I said before, it varies but I never saw it at 600watts ...but it shouldn't matter!
Shanes system is a higher wattage so should heat the water quicker, but mine will do the job also but slower...I suppose it depends on your needs.
Another point made to me by the suppliers of the Energie system was that many people are using a secondary coil of the cylinder to attach their solid fuel ranges/stoves. I was in fact one of the few who chose the stand alone version! I imagine if you are using a mix of fuels then you wouldn't be using much electricity at all!

I have attached my most recent data for the Energie system ...as you can see, the hot July weather caused a reduction to the lowest weekly figures so far....

shane0007

TBH, I agree with Braka.

To add, they are not there to be the "bees knees" & replace all other technologies. They are a viable alternative that works to heat domestic hot water at a considerable lower cost than fossil fuels.
As I said from the beginning, if my system works as well as Braka's then I was a winner, and so far, it is working extremely well. I am actually looking forward to it costing me a bit more (in a weird sort of way!) during the winter as I really want to see what it costs under colder climates & with little or no solar gain.

The other benefit is, when no other fossil fuel source is contributing, such as with mine & with Braka's, is that the space heating system will heat up much quicker than when it is heating a coil also. The home therefore heats up quicker & if thermostatically controlled, will switch off earlier, thus using less oil or gas, etc.

To me, it's a win win situation.

deeno1975

Thanks for your input braka, shane0007 and Condenser.

Your opinions and data are invaluable for evaluating different systems and solutions.

Just one observation Braka, your spreadsheets gives the running costs of your LVP system itself (which is excellent information given it's real world data). I suppose it does not take into account the saving's that you have made where you are not using oil, immersion or electric showers etc to heat the water. Have you seen an increase in costs of electricity bills or have the bills been pretty much stable given the costs of one system versus the saving from another?

braka

Apologies For delay Deeno....
As I mentioned earlier in this thread...up to a year ago we had a reconditioned oil Aga with boiler for domestic hot water attached.
The usage was approx 50-55litres kero/week !!
Also since the sulphur content in Kero had changed , it needed more maintenance more often with cleaning the vapourising chamber etc.
I found out that a new Snugburner unit (pressure jet with 0.3 US gal/hr nozzle) was available and would allow us turn on/off our AGA as required.
Up to then, summer was a problem as we had to keep our AGA on all the time (no immersion) ....with the Snugburner we could leave the AGA off in warm weather ....and the Thermodynamic system was installed to separate the hot water requirement from the AGA.

In the past year we have burned approx 1100 litres less Kero ...saving approx €1000...while the hot water heating with the LVP unit cost €209.
So a fair saving compared to what went before.
Actually the Electricity bill for the year didn't change much at all, as we all took more care with lights, chargers, laptops etc. plus we changed supplier and got a better per unit rate.

Hope that answers your query.

deeno1975 wrote: »

Thanks for your input braka, shane0007 and Condenser.

Your opinions and data are invaluable for evaluating different systems and solutions.

Just one observation Braka, your spreadsheets gives the running costs of your LVP system itself (which is excellent information given it's real world data). I suppose it does not take into account the saving's that you have made where you are not using oil, immersion or electric showers etc to heat the water. Have you seen an increase in costs of electricity bills or have the bills been pretty much stable given the costs of one system versus the saving from another?

whitenoise

Well, we have the panels installed a week now and so far we are delighted with them.
We had a company from craughwell come and install them as well as sorting out our whole central heating system and installing a woodburning stove.

I've been monitoring our electricity usage and it doesn't seem to be adding a noticeable difference to our usage, but it is early days yet. It could be that our dishwasher and washing machine both take hot water if it is available.
The installation was very quick and we had hot water in around 5 hours, as regards the noise levels that some people have mentioned, it is a very low hum, that isn't really noticeable, the literature has the noise levels rated at 39 decibels, I took a measurement (because I could) and it came in at 25 decibels - about the same as a quiet room.

I'd like to say thanks to Braka and Shane for the data they posted and for the info they shared.

The devils

Delighted for you whitenoise...considering using lvp for an install. All the info posted by Braka and Shane is really helpful. Thanks.

The devils

Just purchased ECO 250 Esm unit and hopefully will be collecting next week. Can't wait to get installed...

whitenoise

Good luck with it, I hope you are as happy as I am with it!

The devils wrote: »

Just purchased ECO 250 Esm unit and hopefully will be collecting next week. Can't wait to get installed...

Froststop

Been looking into thermodynamic systems as I've been thinking of getting them fitted in my own house. I came across this testimonial after a commercial system was fitted in west cork, makes interesting reading. I like the idea of upgrading the the system to utilise the waste hot are from the business to improve the efficiency of the system.

"The 8 panel system that xxxxxxxxxxx Solar installed, is housed in an Engineered frame, above the back yard. This allows us to retain the use of the yard. The 2000 litre tank is located in the upstairs attic room just behind the panels. We carefully measured the electrical consumption of the system and can confirm that it used 95Kw of Electricity over a 1 week period. In this week we used 6000 litres of hot water (water temp. of 50 degrees C).

2000 litre hot water tank

Based on our initial numbers we calculate that it cost €3.74 to heat 2000 litres of hot water. This is from a cold start and inlet water temperature of 10 degrees C. What most impressed me was that the above figures are mid-winter, on a cold week. The nightly temperatures were hovering in and around 4 degrees C. Having this system allows me to plan for the future. I plan to upgrade some equipment that will allow me to fully utilize the hot water resource I now have. This will lead to further efficiencies.

Together with xxxxxxxxxxx Solar, we are now exploring ways to use the waste heat being vented from the back of the building. At some point in the future I would hope to install a carefully designed venting system that will blow the hot waste air from the laundry through the 8-panel array. This will further improve the operating efficiency of the system."

DTMC78

Hi new to the forum but have been dipping in and out for awhile.
I see that the MCS body in the UK have been awarded a Judicial review on "Thermodynamic Solar Panels" and it actually means. Will SEAI now review this especially in the case of a retro-fit grants for solar thermal. Hope someone with more experience can enlighten me.

http://www.microgenerationcertification.org/about-us/news-and-events/139-judicial-review

MOTM

DTMC78 wrote: »

Hi new to the forum but have been dipping in and out for awhile.
I see that the MCS body in the UK have been awarded a Judicial review on "Thermodynamic Solar Panels" and it actually means. Will SEAI now review this especially in the case of a retro-fit grants for solar thermal. Hope someone with more experience can enlighten me.

http://www.microgenerationcertification.org/about-us/news-and-events/139-judicial-review

A bit more on this here: http://www.solarpowerportal.co.uk/news/thermodynamic_judicial_review_case_against_mcs_dismissed_2356

shane0007

Some updated & more relevant costs as the days are getting more abyssmal & shorter. Got a couple of ESB bills now & I haven't noticed much of a difference. All from actual readings instead of estimated as I input mine on-line.

So far, I am loving the NUOS & extremely happy with the hot water delivery & the runnings costs.

The one niggle I have is the noise level when it is running in full swing. It only runs during the day as there is no water draw-off during the night, so it's not so bad.

adam88

shane0007 wrote: »

Some updated & more relevant costs as the days are getting more abyssmal & shorter. Got a couple of ESB bills now & I haven't noticed much of a difference. All from actual readings instead of estimated as I input mine on-line.

So far, I am loving the NUOS & extremely happy with the hot water delivery & the runnings costs.

The one niggle I have is the noise level when it is running in full swing. It only runs during the day as there is no water draw-off during the night, so it's not so bad.

Some days you use 1 kWh other days you use 4kwh. Any reason for this

freddyuk

I think you have thermal pre heat?

shane0007

It's a mixture of factors.
1. Solar gain on sunny days as I have solar connected to it also.
2. Usage varies a bit when washing kids hair.
3. The NUOS kicks in only when temperature drops to below a set temperature plus it has extremely low heat loss. So some days it does not have to come on as much until the temp drops to its kick in level.

freddyuk

So do you have twin coil buffer from Nuos and Solar Thermal pre heating? If the incoming supply is always influenced by solar thermal then the standing temperature would unlikely be below 30-35c at most times? The Nuos is then not heating from "cold" only boosting the temperature to 55c. It would be interesting to know the cost without the solar influence as that is the real test for a free standing Nuos unit.
What is the incoming mains temperature?
I have a similar unit I bought years ago from CN which is still sitting unused. They then brought out a twin coil version where you can plumb solar thermal into one coil and have both contributing to the single tank. I cannot find any suppliers now except in France. It seemed a winner to me. The unit will inhale warm moist air and exhale cool dry air so where do you exhaust the outlet too?

shane0007

Single indirect.
Solar only to coil.
Solar is preheating the cylinder not the incoming feed.
Good days at this time of year, solar is getting it to 25c bad days, 40c good days.
NUOS is not topping up solar but rather the other way round. I would have like it to be this way but if water is drawn off when in time mode, if it cannot achieve the 55c within that time, it kicks in the immersion back up. This I don't want so I run it in Green Mode. Immersion can never kick in.
Showers in morning drops temp. NUOS heats to 55C. Solar heats to higher as T2 is high. Usually gets NUOS to 62 - 65c but total volume.
Kids baths at night doesn't kick in NUOS. Following my shower in the morning, NUOS kicks in. Wife's morning shower drags it on further & the cycle begins again.

Where I am seeing the large saving is my oil is hardly budging & I would have used a lot of daily cylinder tops throughout the summer.

The devils

whitenoise wrote: »

Good luck with it, I hope you are as happy as I am with it!

Cheers , just got installed today, so fingers crossed.
Running approx an hour at this stage so hopefully things will run smoothly.
Got system in uk in the end and got install and commissioned by company in Kerry. Great guys to work with...
Will keep you posted.

whitenoise

The devils wrote: »

Cheers , just got installed today, so fingers crossed.
Running approx an hour at this stage so hopefully things will run smoothly.
Got system in uk in the end and got install and commissioned by company in Kerry. Great guys to work with...
Will keep you posted.

I hope you have many happy, hot baths/showers out of it

The devils

Thanks Whitenoise,
Just wondering what temperature you have your compressor set-point left at. Mine was set at 52, so I upped it to 53??

I had to have the system switched after my first post for approx a 1 day. Anyway the system is working fine now thank god. I placed a amp meter/ device for measuring costs and usage etc..it seems to have cost 62 cent over the last 24 hrs. I will be keeping an eye on the usage so I will keep this forum posted, if it's any use.

Cheers

The devils

The devils wrote: »

Thanks Whitenoise,
Just wondering what temperature you have your compressor set-point left at. Mine was set at 52, so I upped it to 53??

I had to have the system switched after my first post for approx a 1 day. Anyway the system is working fine now thank god. I placed a amp meter/ device for measuring costs and usage etc..it seems to have cost 62 cent over the last 24 hrs. I will be keeping an eye on the usage so I will keep this forum posted, if it's any use.

Cheers

Increased the set point to 54 , just in case

braka

The devils wrote: »

Increased the set point to 54 , just in case

Mine is set at 55, .....for comparison purposes it may be better if we were all on the same set temperature of 55?

Also I think having it set at 52 at the beginning was definitely too low!
Is your system manufactured by Energie because it has 55deg as the set temp in its manual?

.........and of course you have to use the anti-legionaires button to put it to 65 if you were not using the water for a period.

The devils wrote: »

I placed a amp meter/ device for measuring costs and usage etc..it seems to have cost 62 cent over the last 24 hrs

If you could post the actual kWh used, it would be better I think as everyone is not using the same supplier and costs are different per kWh.

Good luck with the system.... Mine is actually costing less this year (probably due to the milder Autumn) and I will be putting up my latest data next weekend.

whitenoise

Mine is set to 52 degrees, and haven't had any problems with it so far, Haven't run out of water yet, even though the girls have taken to having 3/4 hour showers
I have a power meter on the whole house, but I think I will put one on the system on it's own as well, to figure out what it is actually costing, so far it hasn't really added a big increase in electricity, I had been monitoring it for a couple of months beforehand, my reasoning behind there not being a huge increase is maybe because the dishwasher and washing machine have hot water available to them, rather than having to heat it. But this is only speculation, I'll put a meter on the system and subtract it from the overall usage and see what's what.

Mine is an Energie system, the installers asked me if 52 was ok, but he showed me how to increase it if I need to......so far I haven't needed to.

The devils

braka wrote: »

Mine is set at 55, .....for comparison purposes it may be better if we were all on the same set temperature of 55?

Also I think having it set at 52 at the beginning was definitely too low!
Is your system manufactured by Energie because it has 55deg as the set temp in its manual?

.........and of course you have to use the anti-legionaires button to put it to 65 if you were not using the water for a period.



If you could post the actual kWh used, it would be better I think as everyone is not using the same supplier and costs are different per kWh.

Good luck with the system.... Mine is actually costing less this year (probably due to the milder Autumn) and I will be putting up my latest data next weekend.

Thanks Braka increased temp to 55 degrees today, so running away fine.
The kWh was 10.91, for 74 hrs used so far...will keep you posted
Thanks again for the updates

The devils

whitenoise wrote: »

Mine is set to 52 degrees, and haven't had any problems with it so far, Haven't run out of water yet, even though the girls have taken to having 3/4 hour showers
I have a power meter on the whole house, but I think I will put one on the system on it's own as well, to figure out what it is actually costing, so far it hasn't really added a big increase in electricity, I had been monitoring it for a couple of months beforehand, my reasoning behind there not being a huge increase is maybe because the dishwasher and washing machine have hot water available to them, rather than having to heat it. But this is only speculation, I'll put a meter on the system and subtract it from the overall usage and see what's what.

Mine is an Energie system, the installers asked me if 52 was ok, but he showed me how to increase it if I need to......so far I haven't needed to.

Thanks whitenoise, going to see how it pans out at 55 for the next while. I also thought it was great at 52 degrees.


Also can I ask you , when the temp drops below 52 degrees, say 49 , will your unit kick in or will it come on sooner like 50. Mine is set to come on when it drops 2 degrees.


Only have it 3 days and it's great. Got up this morning had shower , came home wash child's bottles etc..wife having bath now and then I'll have another shower after football later tonight...


Cheers again

adam88

Can it work with other water heating systems. I've my hot water currently heated by oil and back boiler which will be used a lot more now but live the idea of this for mornings just back from work etc.
What I want to know is for eg If I have a savage fire down will the thermo stay off due to the fact that the water is already bring heated.