LVP Thermodynamic solar Panels

Curly_Wurly

Hi there,

Thinking of getting a solar panel installed on the house (bungalow) - looking at LVP Renewables thermodynamic solar energy and trying to do some research on the above..Has anybody any experience of these systems. Are they any good and worth the cost?

My main concern is the system wants to remove the connection from the heating system into the hot water system and ONLY use the LVP system to heat the hot water..any ideas?
http://lvprenewables.ie/

Thanks again,
CurlyWurly

rosepaddy

Curly_Wurly wrote: »

Hi there,

Thinking of getting a solar panel installed on the house (bungalow) - looking at LVP Renewables thermodynamic solar energy and trying to do some research on the above..Has anybody any experience of these systems. Are they any good and worth the cost?

My main concern is the system wants to remove the connection from the heating system into the hot water system and ONLY use the LVP system to heat the hot water..any ideas?
http://lvprenewables.ie/

Thanks again,
CurlyWurly

i think you need to look at this and the requirements by seai for the 10kw per m2 you need to provide depending on the side of the house this might not be possible, solar panels cannot provide hot water from radiation from the moon no output , in mild condition these will provide a result in freezing cold conditions ie 1 or 2 degrees in my opinion the will be a very costly soloution if these were all they were made out to be than why is verry body not doing them there are people doing solar fro years and have looked at these and wuld not go there ,my advice is look at this very carefully ask a ber guy to check this out for you ring seai , ask the questions it is good to get all information before your decision pm if you want more info

paddy147

Curly_Wurly wrote: »

Hi there,

Thinking of getting a solar panel installed on the house (bungalow) - looking at LVP Renewables thermodynamic solar energy and trying to do some research on the above..Has anybody any experience of these systems. Are they any good and worth the cost?

My main concern is the system wants to remove the connection from the heating system into the hot water system and ONLY use the LVP system to heat the hot water..any ideas?
http://lvprenewables.ie/

Thanks again,
CurlyWurly

I have the LVP system installed about 9 months now and I love it.Never had a single issue with it,piping hot water 24/7 and my central heating system heats up much faster too.
Very happy with it.:)

I can post some pics of the instalation and the system working,if needed.

Audioslaven

There are alot of discussions on the cost of the solar system/servicing Vs the ROI. You may want to factor in this before you go purchasing a system.

maradonas

Hi OP just wondering is the l v solar panels really a better job than tubes etc. myself.
I think its back up fuel is an immersion so the electricity bill will be big enough if you have alot of need for hot water per person.
mmmm baths!!

maradonas

maradonas wrote: »

Hi OP just wondering is the l v solar panels really a better job than tubes etc. myself.
I think its back up fuel is an immersion so the electricity bill will be big enough if you have alot of need for hot water per person.
mmmm baths!!

Wouldn't you size the cylinder to suit the demand and the back up immersion would only kick in if it went below the temperture the heat pump would stop working at ie -5c, otherwise the heat pump will still do its thing it will take longer to achieve temp, using 380w while it's doing it.

freddyuk

A few posters hereon have been highly complimentary of these systems and even promised to provide the running costs we all want to know - but so far no one has ever produced any data to support their claims of 100% hot water 24/7 at no extra cost after the capital outlay. Once you have installed solar thermal it runs at virtually no cost and pays back the capital outlay as the existing system is only working as a top up at no additional capital cost but running a new heat pump (24/7) means the costs must be escalating not being recovered unless your previous system was 100% electric?
According to the sales people at Ecobuild 2012 the "system works if you put the panel in the loft" which does not promote the solar thermal capabilities too well but does explain the heat pump theory.

I'm interested in finding the real costs as well, I asked with a heat pump that works in a similar manor how is it's performance effected by lower tempertures and at what stage would a second heat source be required, the answer I got was that with some of these units the customer sets what time the water is required for ie 6 am and the unit determines the lenth of time required to heat to that temperture and will come on at night and only go off when it has acchived temperature, like set back thermostats running in this case at 750watts putting out just under 3 kw( which is similar to a normal immersion), the idea is the heat pump stays on without cutting out reducing running costs.

paddy147

a few pics of my instalation.

brophis

paddy147 wrote: »

a few pics of my instalation.

paddy147, have you been able to measure the electricity usage of the pump?

freddyuk

Bump!!??
Anyone want to post some results please?

JohnnieK

freddyuk wrote: »

Bump!!??
Anyone want to post some results please?

I think you'll be waiting for that freddy :D

pointywalnut

Hi,

I got the LVP Solar panel installed around 21 months ago, along with improved insulation, (wall and attic) and also converted by Electric shower to a Power shower.

I compared my Electricity usage for a 12 month, before and after, and discovered I was using 500 units less a year. Also my oil usage is down by between 500 and 750 litres a year. I am not able to say how much was due to the LVP Solar panel, improved insulation or switching to use a Power shower.

The only issue, I have had with the Solar Panel, is that each Winter the Solar Panel forms a layer of Ice on it, which so far, has fallen twice onto my driveway.

braka

freddyuk wrote: »

Bump!!??
Anyone want to post some results please?

Just for your information, I researched these panels earlier this year when we were looking at ways of having a more economical way of providing hot water than through our oil Aga which was proving very expensive.
At the outset, I have to state I have no connection with any of the companies currently installing these Thermodynamic Solar panels.

The company that installed the panel on the roof (in around 4 hrs) and left everything spick and span, assured us we would have hot water all year round for approx. 300-400 euro. I thought that at 1 euro/day it would be good value.
Since it was installed (a 250 litre capacity cylinder with only the Solar panel connection and no Secondary heat source eg. range etc connected) I have monitored the electrical power consumption using an energy meter.

The energy meter, measures the Voltage , Current, Max power drawn, total power used in Watts, and even the cost (as you can input the cost per unit ie. per 1KWH).

The results are way better than even I expected. Since June, our 2 college students are at home and are big users of hot water in addition to the usual hot water consumption you have in a house, washing machine, kitchen etc etc.
The electricity usage for a month between 11 July and 11 August was 80.9Kw (units) which depending in who your electricity supplier is approx 15euro or 50cent/day.
I think this is great value considering the cost works out at approx 4K (after the 800 euro grant is claimed). I can supply more details should anyone require them. Very Happy customer!!

freddyuk

Is this your electricity usage for the Water heater only? If so where is the measurement taken from. I assume you have a CT clamp around one of your circuit cables.

braka

freddyuk wrote: »

Is this your electricity usage for the Water heater only? If so where is the measurement taken from. I assume you have a CT clamp around one of your circuit cables.

This usage is from the thermodynamic Eco250 compressor (same principle as the one in your fridge). The 3 pin plug from the compressor unit plugs into the energy meter (Proteam HO1569 type) which plugs into the mains.
I have used this meter on quite a few appliances and can verify its accuracy.
It can measure loads up 3.5KWatts so is very suitable for household purposes.
I bought it in an electrical store a couple of years back for around 15euro and good electrical stores have them as I saw them recently for sale here.

Maplin (online ordering) have one similar at the moment for £14.99 (see link below)

http://www.maplin.co.uk/plug-in-mains-power-and-energy-monitor-38343

freddyuk

Thanks for posting some real information at last.

Is there an immersion heater connected also? Heat pumps get the water to 55c but I understand legionnella control requires regular heating to 60c+ via immersion or how does this function work on your set up.
If you drain the hot water ie. a bath and a couple of showers how long is recovery from around 25- 30c back to 55c and what is the energy monitor showing during this recovery period? (in watts)
Is your washing machine a hot fill or cold fill?
Is your dishwasher hot fill or cold fill?

Thanks

ccsolar

braka wrote: »

I think this is great value considering the cost works out at approx 4K (after the 800 euro grant is claimed). I can supply more details should anyone require them. Very Happy customer!!

Hi Braka
Just wondering what is the Sqm of your house?
The SEAI have stated that this system only produces 790kwh/per year of renewable energy, in order to comply with the SEAI grant for solar you need to install a system that produces 10 kwh/sqm/year.
Im assuming that your house is bigger than 79sqm and was wondering how you got around this requirement.
Did you get an independant BER assessor or did LVP carry out the BER rating?

Cc

freddyuk

Must have gone on holiday!:D

NIMAN

Maybe taking a long, deep bath.

braka

freddyuk wrote: »

Thanks for posting some real information at last.

Is there an immersion heater connected also? Heat pumps get the water to 55c but I understand legionnella control requires regular heating to 60c+ via immersion or how does this function work on your set up.
If you drain the hot water ie. a bath and a couple of showers how long is recovery from around 25- 30c back to 55c and what is the energy monitor showing during this recovery period? (in watts)
Is your washing machine a hot fill or cold fill?
Is your dishwasher hot fill or cold fill?

Thanks

Apologies for the delay in getting back to you (and others who may have been looking in).... was very busy on many fronts this last week but will try and make up for lost time.

Re your Q's. There is an immersion element in the cylinder that can be switched on (in the event the system ever stopped working for example).
Its rated at 1200 Watts but I don't know how long it would take to heat the 250 litres from scratch.
Its advised that if you were not using any (or very little) hot water (eg if on holidays) that you activate a special anti-legionnella control button which activates the immersion and brings the temperature up to 65 deg. You are advised not to use the water within 8 hrs of activating this function.
We have not used this function as yet, as the house has been occupied constantly but I intend to activate it soon at a weekend when we are all away and I can monitor the energy used then.

Re your Q on recovery time if we drain all the hot water with baths etc.?
I cannot answer on that because all I know is that we have had no complaints so far about water temperatures dropping...
I suppose I could get the family to co-ordinate their water usage and see !!
Will let you know...

I recall that when the system was put in, it took about 8 hours to heat up, but that was at night so it would probably be less in daylight.

We have a washing machine with both hot and cold water inlets. No dishwasher.
The washing machine has been busy this summer... 2-3 washes 6 days / week my wife tells me!! None on Sunday...I'm told..I should be grateful!
...Price of having sports mad people in the house!!

Next project....put my energy meter on the washing machine ?

braka

ccsolar wrote: »

Hi Braka
Just wondering what is the Sqm of your house?
The SEAI have stated that this system only produces 790kwh/per year of renewable energy, in order to comply with the SEAI grant for solar you need to install a system that produces 10 kwh/sqm/year.
Im assuming that your house is bigger than 79sqm and was wondering how you got around this requirement.
Did you get an independant BER assessor or did LVP carry out the BER rating?

Cc

Apologies for the delay in replying here also.....

You are correct..I wasn't aware of these figures but got them checked out ... it appears the size of the panel used is a factor (along with the house area)

My understanding now is that with the Energie Thermodynamic system the SEAI are not allowing for the fact that the roof Panel has 2 sides (top and bottom with small pipes containing the gas etc) but are calculating it using length x width only.
The amount of the grant now (only changed in the last month I was informed) would probably be only a couple of hundred euro at max. (area of house is a factor as you correctly pointed out)

Pity...I still think its a good deal...100% is 100% of water required throughout the year...
and we all know that our climate in Dec/Jan is of dark days and very little hot water from conventional solar panels....and at a time when lots of hot water is required in the home.

BTW I was advised by the supplier to get an independent BER assessor as they couldn't be involved in that end of things, and that's what I did.

freddyuk

Thanks for giving us some real information.
One question = what temperature is the water in the cylinder when topped up?

Let's see how it goes over the year.

braka

freddyuk wrote: »

Thanks for giving us some real information.
One question = what temperature is the water in the cylinder when topped up?

Let's see how it goes over the year.

The normal temperature of the water in the cylinder is 55deg. (but can be programmed by the supplier should one want a different temp.)
The load drawn by the unit when its running (with a hum like a fridge) is between 450 - 465 watts.
The supplied documentation suggests a Power input range between 390 -550 watts, and a Power output range of 1690 - 2900 Watts.


As you suggest...lets see over the year.
The winter months should be interesting!. I will keep you updated.

Unregistered.

braka wrote: »

The winter months should be interesting!. I will keep you updated.

How are you getting on?

freddyuk

We need to know when the temperature drops below 5c on a regular basis. It is not cold yet but many are forecasting a cold winter but sadly no one knows.
Let's ask the question in February/March for meaningful data.

braka

Unregistered. wrote: »

How are you getting on?

Hi everyone who may be keeping an eye out for data, just thought I'd fill you in on what I have collected so far.
I have taken readings from my energy meter 4-5 times/week and I have attached an XL file (with the weekly data totted up) of the KW (units) used.

You can draw your own conclusions... however freedyuk is correct in saying its too early to know yet what the figures will be later in the depth of winter.

Certainly the current days don't have much sunshine and are probably dark 15 of the 24hrs so its looking good for the system and its promise of working even in the dark hours.

Also you can calculate the cost by multiplying by the cost/unit(Kwh)
...my supplier was the ESB at approx 18.9c/KWh when I started taking readings, but since then I have moved to another supplier with a cheaper cost/Kwh.

I will supply further data after Christmas.

just do it

Braka
Looking at your figures and junping to an assumption that the ave/wk over the year will be ~23units gives annual bill of €225. Nothing wrong with that! Of course the most testing months are now only beginning.

Out of interest, do you know/ estimate how much DHW was costing you per year previously?

And one final thing, how are you dealing with the occassional temp rise to overcome the risk of legionella?

And finally thank you for supplying all the data. It's much appreciated.

freddyuk

There is a manual override button for getting water up to 60c for legionnela.
It is far to early to make any average assumptions but the graph is ticking upwards even though we have not had really cold weather yet.
This is not a solar thermal panel system and therefore the sun is not a big factor in it's performance. If the unit is costing more during cold frosty nights then that will be the issue. it cannot provide the hot water during the day as the heat up time is too slow. So is it running at night? If you use hot water in the evening then the unit needs to replenish at night when it is least efficient. You said it needed 8 hours heat up time from cold.
If you work out the numbers the unit is running about 6 hours day in summer and extrapolating that forwards could be running 12 hours a day in winter. It will have to run at night to keep a full tank for the mornings.
A solar thermal system also has this problem if you use all the water in the evening (unless you have a WBS attached!!) but it will be backed up by another source and that source will not need to work as hard as the water is pre warmed and controls can be set for optimum performance. ie. a boiler will run for 15-20 minutes to get sufficient hot water for early morning and then switch off. The Thermodynamic needs to keep going to heat the whole tank.
Can you confirm any of this with your monitoring?

braka

just do it wrote: »

Braka
Looking at your figures and junping to an assumption that the ave/wk over the year will be ~23units gives annual bill of €225. Nothing wrong with that! Of course the most testing months are now only beginning.

Out of interest, do you know/ estimate how much DHW was costing you per year previously?

And one final thing, how are you dealing with the occassional temp rise to overcome the risk of legionella?

And finally thank you for supplying all the data. It's much appreciated.

I agree the most testing months are coming, but from I've been told as the refrigerant is down around -24 Deg C, then anything warmer than that will be sufficient to keep the water heated to 55 Deg.
The big Q. is how many units/day will it use??

A bit of background on my old system for heating water.
In 1994 we changed from a solid fuel range (Stanley 8) to an oil AGA (2 oven model) in order to cut out the amount of dust being generated (..daughter with asthma).
The Aga did all the cooking and heating of the hot water (as the Stanley 8 did) but not the central heating rads.(separate system using approx 500 litres/yr)
The Aga DHW boiler fed a 54" high direct cylinder and there was always lashings of hot water ....almost boiling in fact at times ...so much energy being wasted.
The bad news was it was using approx 54-55 litres of Kero/ week !!!
Oil was cheap in the past...hard to believe now! ..and once you get used to an Aga its difficult to throw it out!
This year we removed the DHW boiler from the AGA and fitted a new Snugburner conversion unit to it. This unit changed the heating from a "wick" Don burner to a pressure jet system and means the Aga isn't running 24hrs/day. The current rate of oil use is approx 30-32 litres/week ..just purely cooking and space heating of the living areas.

The water heating is done by the Thermodynamic system and obviously its working out very economically with no complaints from anyone re the water temp.
When we had this system installed, we figured a euro/day would be good value .... at the moment it looks it could work out at a lot less than that.
So now we wait and see ...?

As regards the legionella, if you are not using water over a period (eg. on hols )you are advised to use a button on the unit to heat the water up 65 deg. Never had to use it yet as there have always been occupants in the house.

braka

freddyuk wrote: »

There is a manual override button for getting water up to 60c for legionnela.

Actually 65c

freddyuk wrote: »

It is far to early to make any average assumptions but the graph is ticking upwards even though we have not had really cold weather yet.

... absolutely correct..time will tell.

freddyuk wrote: »

This is not a solar thermal panel system and therefore the sun is not a big factor in it's performance. If the unit is costing more during cold frosty nights then that will be the issue. it cannot provide the hot water during the day as the heat up time is too slow. So is it running at night? If you use hot water in the evening then the unit needs to replenish at night when it is least efficient. You said it needed 8 hours heat up time from cold.
If you work out the numbers the unit is running about 6 hours day in summer and extrapolating that forwards could be running 12 hours a day in winter. It will have to run at night to keep a full tank for the mornings.
A solar thermal system also has this problem if you use all the water in the evening (unless you have a WBS attached!!) but it will be backed up by another source and that source will not need to work as hard as the water is pre warmed and controls can be set for optimum performance. ie. a boiler will run for 15-20 minutes to get sufficient hot water for early morning and then switch off. The Thermodynamic needs to keep going to heat the whole tank.
Can you confirm any of this with your monitoring?

I agree with most of what you say... currently the motor is using around 360-380 watts when running so 12 hrs at that would use 4.5 kw....its still less than 1 euro/day.
The tank is 250 litres so that's not a bad reserve of hot water.
As you say, time will tell and I will keep you informed of how the monitoring is going.