LVP Thermodynamic solar Panels

braka

shane0007 wrote: »

Hi Braka,
Just a few questions:
1. What size cylinder do you have installed?
2. What is the given COP of your system?
3. What is the kw consumption of the heat pump?
4. How has the system performed/consumed during this good weather?

Much appreciated,
Shane

Hi Shane,

1. Its a 250 litre tank with no secondary heat source.
2. Not sure exactly..book says Min Absorbed Power is 390Watts, and Max. Thermal Power is 1690Watts
3. I've seen the power wattage vary between 400-430 Watts..
4. Actually it appears to be around the same as it was last month...approx 3 units /day but I'm looking forward to seeing what the figures will be in the next week considering the weather forecast is very good (around the 20's).

Hope this helps.

shane0007

braka wrote: »

Hi Shane,

1. Its a 250 litre tank with no secondary heat source.
2. Not sure exactly..book says Min Absorbed Power is 390Watts, and Max. Thermal Power is 1690Watts
3. I've seen the power wattage vary between 400-430 Watts..
4. Actually it appears to be around the same as it was last month...approx 3 units /day but I'm looking forward to seeing what the figures will be in the next week considering the weather forecast is very good (around the 20's).

Hope this helps.

Thanks.
I am fitting mine next week all going well. I am fitting the 250L also but with a coil for the solar.
Going by your figures, claimed COP is between 3.9 & 4.3, which is very good.
It will be interesting to see how mine performs with an input of 750W & maximum output of 2,775W giving a COP of 3.7.

MOTM

shane0007 wrote: »

claimed COP is between 3.9 & 4.3, which is very good.

Yes it is very good if its valid. Tested to what standard and tests carried out by who?

shane0007

MOTM wrote: »

Yes it is very good if its valid. Tested to what standard and tests carried out by who?

Not sure about the LVP but the NUOS testing is all carried out to EN 255-3.
It seems to be very difficult to find information in the LVP. No manuals or technical data on-line.

braka

shane0007 wrote: »

Not sure about the LVP but the NUOS testing is all carried out to EN 255-3.
It seems to be very difficult to find information in the LVP. No manuals or technical data on-line.

Hi Shane,
When researching the Energie system originally, I came across this website
http://www.contraintl.com/products.php?prod_id=81&cat_id=28

and this pdf which is the installation manual can be found at:

http://www.contraintl.com/uploads/1404_2659_3299.pdf

Hope this helps.
Regards,
Braka

shane0007

Thanks for that Braka.

Going by their figures, the COP is upto 5.27 (2,900 \ 550).
I wonder is this with the electric immersion as also there is a 1,200W immersion in it.
This would then give a COP of 3.1. They don't seem to state the tested COP. I'm sure if it was 5.3, they would be singing it very loudly.
Their annual usage is given as 780 but this would give an average weekly 15kwh where the lowest actual was 17kwh & the highest was 33.3kwh. Average so far is 22.2kwh. This would be an average weekly running cost of €4.00 per week across the year. The equivalent amount of water being heated by an immersion heater would cost €20.77 per week to heat.
To run an oil boiler for 1/2 hour in morning & 1/2 hour in evening for HW each day would cost €15.54 per week to run. (Based on a 26kw oil boiler set to run at 23kw with a nozzle 0.65US Gal & set to 7.0 bar pressure).
Natural gas for the same period would be approx €12.08 for the same period daily. (Based on equivalent boiler as the oil boiler but non-modulating standard efficiency).

Either way, it is a very nice performing unit with actual running costs I like.

MOTM

shane0007 wrote: »

Thanks for that Braka.

Going by their figures, the COP is upto 5.27 (2,900 \ 550).
I wonder is this with the electric immersion as also there is a 1,200W immersion in it.
This would then give a COP of 3.1. They don't seem to state the tested COP. I'm sure if it was 5.3, they would be singing it very loudly.
Their annual usage is given as 780 but this would give an average weekly 15kwh where the lowest actual was 17kwh & the highest was 33.3kwh. Average so far is 22.2kwh. This would be an average weekly running cost of €4.00 per week across the year. The equivalent amount of water being heated by an immersion heater would cost €20.77 per week to heat.
To run an oil boiler for 1/2 hour in morning & 1/2 hour in evening for HW each day would cost €15.54 per week to run. (Based on a 26kw oil boiler set to run at 23kw with a nozzle 0.65US Gal & set to 7.0 bar pressure).
Natural gas for the same period would be approx €12.08 for the same period daily. Based on equivalent boiler as the oil boiler but non-modulating standard efficiency).

Either way, it is a very nice performing unit with actual running costs I like.

On the oil calculation: 23kW for an hour a day is 8395kWh/yr. Even for 5-6 users that sounds excessive. I reckon the oil cost would be closer to €300-400 per year for oil to heat water (closer to €6 - €7 per week rather than the €15.54 stated above).

The energie documents above do not provide any accredited test data as far as I can see.

shane0007

MOTM wrote: »

On the oil calculation: 23kW for an hour a day is 8395kWh/yr. Even for 5-6 users that sounds excessive. I reckon the oil cost would be closer to €300-400 per year for oil to heat water (closer to €6 - €7 per week rather than the €15.54 stated above).

The energie documents above do not provide any accredited test data as far as I can see.

I understand what you are saying but the system will not take 23kw. An oil boiler running for 1/2 hour in the morning & 1/2 hour in evening will run without stopping. A 23kw oil boiler will have a 0.65US Gal nozzle which at 7 bar pressure will use 2.46 litres of fuel in 1 hour. Times 7 days = 17.22 litres times 90 cent per litre = €15.50.
Most oil boilers will have a pump pressure of 8 to 9 bar pressure so consumption will increase.

Regarding the Energie certified results, I have based my calculation of €4.00 per week on Braka's actual kw consumption posted.

shane0007

Finally fitted the NUOS today. Energy monitor also arrived today but will set that up tomorrow & start monitoring.

Will keep you posted on performance & costs.

Condenser

shane0007 wrote: »

Finally fitted the NUOS today. Energy monitor also arrived today but will set that up tomorrow & start monitoring.

Will keep you posted on performance & costs.

Remember to factor in the amount of wasted energy from the house. You'll need the m/3 of air moved and the delta t between air on and air off to calculate house much energy the unit is actually extracting in order to create the energy for the hot water. A factor which most people tend to overlook with these units.

dathi

shane0007 wrote: »

Thanks for that Braka.

Going by their figures, the COP is upto 5.27 (2,900 \ 550).
I wonder is this with the electric immersion as also there is a 1,200W immersion in it.
This would then give a COP of 3.1. They don't seem to state the tested COP. I'm sure if it was 5.3, they would be singing it very loudly.

you missed the following small print under the figures (1)" the electrical power input corresponds to the electrical consumption based on water temperature in the interval between 30 and 50 c" which means the electrical input is only at that figure when the water has already reached 30* and is much higher below these water temps and next part of statement (2) "and produced thermal power to the amount of solar radiation that hits the panel" this figure refers to the amount of kwh that hits the panel in sunlight not the amount that is absorbed by the panel/heat pump so neither of these two figures can be used to work out a cop

shane0007

Condenser wrote: »

Remember to factor in the amount of wasted energy from the house. You'll need the m/3 of air moved and the delta t between air on and air off to calculate house much energy the unit is actually extracting in order to create the energy for the hot water. A factor which most people tend to overlook with these units.

It's not taking any air from the house. Even MI's show to take it directly from outside. In my own installation it is not taking any air from the house.

I fitted the energy monitor to it today. Very snazzy piece of kit with phone app, uploading info to server & downloading xcel spreadsheets.
Downside is I filled the NUOS with the water from the old cylinder as it was hot from the solar so it didn't have to come on. Today, the solar has it bottom of tank to 61C & top of tank to 62C so it won't come on today either! The results will be more accurate during poor solar days & in winter time. But in a way, it's becoming closer to being the near perfect system, complimenting the solar system or vice versa.

To top it all, I received some energy usage on the monitor but the NUOS was off. Wife was hoovering. It's a central vacuum system & sparks must have wired it through the immersion circuit as I wired the NUOS through the immersion circuit & clamped the monitor clamp to that circuit in the consumer unit.

Condenser

shane0007 wrote: »

It's not taking any air from the house. Even MI's show to take it directly from outside. In my own installation it is not taking any air from the house.

I fitted the energy monitor to it today. Very snazzy piece of kit with phone app, uploading info to server & downloading xcel spreadsheets.
Downside is I filled the NUOS with the water from the old cylinder as it was hot from the solar so it didn't have to come on. Today, the solar has it bottom of tank to 61C & top of tank to 62C so it won't come on today either! The results will be more accurate during poor solar days & in winter time. But in a way, it's becoming closer to being the near perfect system, complimenting the solar system or vice versa.

To top it all, I received some energy usage on the monitor but the NUOS was off. Wife was hoovering. It's a central vacuum system & sparks must have wired it through the immersion circuit as I wired the NUOS through the immersion circuit & clamped the monitor clamp to that circuit in the consumer unit.

Most would use at least a blend in internal and external air, they struggle in temps below 10c otherwise. Don, t rely on an owl meter or similar for readouts, they're muck. You should use a hardwired meter

shane0007

Condenser wrote: »

Most would use at least a blend in internal and external air, they struggle in temps below 10c otherwise. Don, t rely on an owl meter or similar for readouts, they're muck. You should use a hardwired meter

It's an Efergy monitor & seems to be fairly accurate. It has excellent reviews also.

adam88

Hi lads. Just been reading this and I'm finding it interesting. I've recently bought a 40 year old house and am completely gutting it. I'm taking up my floors so new pipes won't be a problem. Had originally planned for a three phased system, oil, solid fuel stove and solar. As none of my roofs are south facing I can't go solar. Plumber recommended thermo dynamic with the hot tank being stainless steel three coil. Hope the makes sense. The question I'm asking is during the winter I love the feel of my stove being on. The stove in question will be a really strong stove ( 3 bedroom bungalow 1300sq feet) when the stove is doing its thing will the thermo dynamic system still be heating if so it will be a waste. As ill be living in the house by myself and using very little hot water could some of this spare hot water be used to heat my rads and when this is gone the oil boiler will kick in (presuming its meant to as in controls are set for specific times)

I know you can get a system to heat the house but I think this would be severe over kill

Any help would be great

MOTM

adam88 wrote: »

Hi lads. Just been reading this and I'm finding it interesting. I've recently bought a 40 year old house and am completely gutting it. I'm taking up my floors so new pipes won't be a problem. Had originally planned for a three phased system, oil, solid fuel stove and solar. As none of my roofs are south facing I can't go solar. Plumber recommended thermo dynamic with the hot tank being stainless steel three coil. Hope the makes sense. The question I'm asking is during the winter I love the feel of my stove being on. The stove in question will be a really strong stove ( 3 bedroom bungalow 1300sq feet) when the stove is doing its thing will the thermo dynamic system still be heating if so it will be a waste. As ill be living in the house by myself and using very little hot water could some of this spare hot water be used to heat my rads and when this is gone the oil boiler will kick in (presuming its meant to as in controls are set for specific times)

I know you can get a system to heat the house but I think this would be severe over kill

Any help would be great

On what basis did your plumber recommend thermodynamic? Think about spending that money on insulation and air tightness first and foremost. I've yet to see anything that says thermodynamic is as good as a condensing boiler and conventional solar.

adam88

MOTM wrote: »

On what basis did your plumber recommend thermodynamic? Think about spending that money on insulation and air tightness first and foremost. I've yet to see anything that says thermodynamic is as good as a condensing boiler and conventional solar.

Originally wanted solar but that was a nogo due to having no south facing slopes. Plumber has installed thermo before. Basically I want a guaranteed source of hot water throughout the year especially in the summer months when my stove and oil won't be on

bp_me

adam88 wrote: »

Originally wanted solar but that was a nogo due to having no south facing slopes. Plumber has installed thermo before. Basically I want a guaranteed source of hot water throughout the year especially in the summer months when my stove and oil won't be on

It's likely to be far more cost effective to zone your cylinder...

But why not just put in a combi and not have a cylinder at all?

adam88

bp_me wrote: »

It's likely to be far more cost effective to zone your cylinder...

But why not just put in a combi and not have a cylinder at all?

House will be zoned. From April to October ill be needing no central heating just hot water. Seems a cheap option for always on hot water

Not sure about a combi boiler prob because I don't know enough about them, heard some bad stories re noise etc

bp_me

adam88 wrote: »

House will be zoned. From April to October ill be needing no central heating just hot water. Seems a cheap option for always on hot water

Not sure about a combi boiler prob because I don't know enough about them, heard some bad stories re noise etc

Do the maths on running the oil for a period of time to heat the cylinder each evening vs the additional cost of the LVP panel and it's running costs.

We have had combi for over 20 years and I would never have said noise was an issue. It also makes a lot of sense to heat what you need and when you need rather than heating a cylinder of water and then having to store/lose the heat from it.

adam88

bp_me wrote: »

Do the maths on running the oil for a period of time to heat the cylinder each evening vs the additional cost of the LVP panel and it's running costs.

We have had combi for over 20 years and I would never have said noise was an issue. It also makes a lot of sense to heat what you need and when you need rather than heating a cylinder of water and then having to store/lose the heat from it.

But would the combi allow for one person to have a shower while another would run a bath or do the dishes

bp_me

adam88 wrote: »

But would the combi allow for one person to have a shower while another would run a bath or do the dishes

Edit for clarity.
Nope a combi cant do that.

I don't really see any issue there personally though.

bp_me

bp_me wrote: »

It's likely to be far more cost effective to zone your cylinder...

But why not just put in a combi and not have a cylinder at all?

bp_me wrote: »

Do the maths on running the oil for a period of time to heat the cylinder each evening vs the additional cost of the LVP panel and it's running costs.

We have had combi for over 20 years and I would never have said noise was an issue. It also makes a lot of sense to heat what you need and when you need rather than heating a cylinder of water and then having to store/lose the heat from it.

The solution to heating and hot water requirements are based on many variables, a heating engineer will determine viable cost effective options based on these variables, every job is unique.

I have seen installations where the heating and hot water system were troublesome and costly, some would of included combi's, I have seen installations that were very good and cost effective, including the use of less mainstream products like LVP panels.

So it's not as simple as LVP bad combi good.

shane0007

bp_me wrote: »

Nope. I don't really see any issue there personally though.

Nonsense. You won't run a bath & a shower from a combi. For one to keep up with a flow rate of 25 - 30 litres per minute from a combi just won't happen!

Combi's have their place in the market & are an excellent choice where suited but to give users false pretences of performances is just nonsensical.

Most technologies also have their place in the market & as long as people can make sensible informed decisions about their choices, then expectations are easily met. It is where they get over-inflated results that leads to people's disappointments about a particular technology.

bp_me

shane0007 wrote: »

Nonsense. You won't run a bath & a shower from a combi. For one to keep up with a flow rate of 25 - 30 litres per minute from a combi just won't happen!

Combi's have their place in the market & are an excellent choice where suited but to give users false pretences of performances is just nonsensical.

I never said anything false or nonsense. I answered the question.

"nope".

Then went on to express an opinion.

shane0007

bp_me wrote: »

I never said anything false or nonsense. I answered the question.

"nope".

Then went on to express an opinion.

You said you did not see any problem with running a bath & a shower from a combi boiler. That is the statement I am referring to as nonsense.

bp_me

shane0007 wrote: »

You said you did not see any problem with running a bath & a shower from a combi boiler. That is the statement I am referring to as nonsense.

Just not the meaning I intended for the sentence. I am well aware you can't run multiple things at the same time from a combi (or not at any kind of reasonable pressure anyway).

Anyway... this is getting dragged off topic over semantics... perhaps we can agree that Im not actually trying to say a combi can do something it can't and move on.

shane0007

No problem.

shane0007

Just completed first week after NUOS installation.

I have included weather station outside air temps with general weather conditions, so solar gain was good on some days, terrible on others but you will see from the kwh the days the solar contributed significantly or not.

Also had some teething hiccups where it allowed the immersion to kick in with the HP on a couple of days, so I have hopefully sorted those now.

6.98kwh used so far
x 18 cent per kwh
= €1.25 for the weeks hot water

2 x adults
2 x children

Showers everyday
Baths for the kids

adam88

shane0007 wrote: »

Just completed first week after NUOS installation.

I have included weather station outside air temps with general weather conditions, so solar gain was good on some days, terrible on others but you will see from the kwh the days the solar contributed significantly or not.

Also had some teething hiccups where it allowed the immersion to kick in with the HP on a couple of days, so I have hopefully sorted those now.

6.98kwh used so far
x 18 cent per kwh
= €1.25 for the weeks hot water

2 x adults
2 x children

Showers everyday
Baths for the kids

Nuos???? Is the thermo dynamic system or just solar. Sorry for stupid question

I thought thermo dynamic was meant to work well even in bad weather.