LVP Thermodynamic solar Panels

Froststop

freddyuk wrote: »

Here is a post in UK regarding a commercial Thermodynamic installation under test for 2 years in Southwest UK.
http://www.renewablerescue.co.uk/do-not-install-thermodynamic-systems

Some of the comments are familiar. Note this is thermodynamic heating not air to water or air to air.

I'm still trying to figure out how it's providing Hot water & heating to rads when there is only four connections on the tank, or am I missing something?

1: There's a cold feed, a hot water supply with a pump on it, which looks like a circulating pump and a F&R to the coil off the eco box.
2: Most industrial units are not insulated well enough to prevent heat loss considering temps off the system are a max of 55. This unit is probably running constant trying to keep up with heat loss. There is no mention of the size of the compressor.
3: if it was installed at a solar wholesalers before installation in this "shed", is the correct amount of gas in the system?
4: it looks like a 400 ltr tank, we're heating them with one panel to 55 degrees FFS.
5: there is nothing to suggest the daily hot water consumption. Very very little hot water use could be 100 ltrs per hour for a business.
6: there may be only 6 rads but there could be 100 mts of pipe linking them, as well as open doors, no insulation over ceiling "tiles".

IMO this is set up by some solar company to try and damage this system!

shane0007

freddyuk wrote: »

Not disputing weather data as not seen any real data. However we had one or two mildly frosty nights to date.
Heating a 300 litre solar cylinder with an immersion from the bottom of course will use a lot of (wasted) energy. Immersions go in the top of a cylinder so you heat with expensive electricity just the amount you need and switch it off. It takes very little time but it is relevant to the starting temperature and I have solar coming in too. So for around 100 litres to get from my average "cold" 35c it will take me 30 - 40 minutes to get to temperature so 2kWh. I would never use 300 litres in one go so would never heat a complete cylinder with immersion. Your friend would not use 300 litres of hot water every day?? That is why you put solar in the bottom which is free. I will get quite a few immersion boosts for €4 and I have not spent any money on a heat pump system. When it gets really much more wintery we can revisit results.
I thought the website I presented offered another view not a be all and all of the discussion. If it turns out to be totally incorrect I will withdraw it. I cannot do anything about the MCS decision however. (Thermo not Heat pump).

Firstly, it is rare to find a solar cylinder with the immersion on the top. They are nearly always at the bottom.
Secondly, solar gain in Ireland, especially in winter is very sporadic and an average family with modest hot water needs could not rely on it for most of the year.
My friend has a family of 5. From REAI's own manuals, an person uses an average of 35 - 45 litres of hit water per day. That gives a demand of 175 litres to 225 litres of hot water per day. The immersion is not sitting on the bottom of the cylinder & IMO there is approx 75 litres of water below it.
Average power showers use about 12-15 litres per minute at a ratio of 60:40 depending on water temperature, so a 10 minute shower would use 72 -93 litres of hot water.

I have a family of 4 & power showers & baths are used every single day. For the volume I use, the run time of the heat pump seems to be correct for the manufacturer's technical data, so I am content that the unit is running & doing as specified by the manufacturer.

Finally, you said your solar is heating your water for free. Have you therefore received your full payback on your system as your system & all associates had to purchased & installed? Everything has a cost & I have installed countless solar systems. I installed solar in my own home 5 years ago & know first hand how good & how bad they perform. For me, the heat pump offers a valuable & valid alternative that works & has a place in the market.
For me professionally, both have pros and cons. For the heat pump, noise is a big factor. Pipework is also a factor & it needs a condensate drain.
Solar has low running costs but it is not dependable everyday & even in Ireland's many bleak & cloudy summers, it could never satisfy my family's needs.

freddyuk

Read all about it here. Some of these guys are looking to sell the kit to make money.... why would they be biased against it unless they made an informed decision that maybe the money would not be made. Certainly now in the UK without MCS backing it will need to be very good to be accepted as it will not qualify for RHI payments.
http://www.electriciansforums.co.uk/photovoltaic-solar-panels-green-energy-forum/86750-installed-thermodynamic-system-2-year-test.html

shane0007

Froststop wrote: »

I'm still trying to figure out how it's providing Hot water & heating to rads when there is only four connections on the tank, or am I missing something?

1: There's a cold feed, a hot water supply with a pump on it, which looks like a circulating pump and a F&R to the coil off the eco box.
2: Most industrial units are not insulated well enough to prevent heat loss considering temps off the system are a max of 55. This unit is probably running constant trying to keep up with heat loss. There is no mention of the size of the compressor.
3: if it was installed at a solar wholesalers before installation in this "shed", is the correct amount of gas in the system?
4: it looks like a 400 ltr tank, we're heating them with one panel to 55 degrees FFS.
5: there is nothing to suggest the daily hot water consumption. Very very little hot water use could be 100 ltrs per hour for a business.
6: there may be only 6 rads but there could be 100 mts of pipe linking them, as well as open doors, no insulation over ceiling "tiles".

IMO this is set up by some solar company to try and damage this system!

Forget about that system, it's a heat pump heating DHW & rads. It has nothing to do with the units in this thread. It is thermodynamic but rather than a traditional air to water or ground source heat pump, it is using the thermodynamic roof panels to do everything. IMO, that's asking too much of the technology as it is too much of a load for it.
For example, my own unit which is air to water requires approx 500m3 of air to pass over the heat exchanger to work, so if you limit that, the COP is out the window.
This thread is only about units that are heating DHW only.

freddyuk

shane0007 wrote: »

Firstly, it is rare to find a solar cylinder with the immersion on the top. They are nearly always at the bottom.
Secondly, solar gain in Ireland, especially in winter is very sporadic and an average family with modest hot water needs could not rely on it for most of the year.
My friend has a family of 5. From REAI's own manuals, an person uses an average of 35 - 45 litres of hit water per day. That gives a demand of 175 litres to 225 litres of hot water per day. The immersion is not sitting on the bottom of the cylinder & IMO there is approx 75 litres of water below it.
Average power showers use about 12-15 litres per minute at a ratio of 60:40 depending on water temperature, so a 10 minute shower would use 72 -93 litres of hot water.

I have a family of 4 & power showers & baths are used every single day. For the volume I use, the run time of the heat pump seems to be correct for the manufacturer's technical data, so I am content that the unit is running & doing as specified by the manufacturer.

Finally, you said your solar is heating your water for free. Have you therefore received your full payback on your system as your system & all associates had to purchased & installed? Everything has a cost & I have installed countless solar systems. I installed solar in my own home 5 years ago & know first hand how good & how bad they perform. For me, the heat pump offers a valuable & valid alternative that works & has a place in the market.
For me professionally, both have pros and cons. For the heat pump, noise is a big factor. Pipework is also a factor & it needs a condensate drain.
Solar has low running costs but it is not dependable everyday & even in Ireland's many bleak & cloudy summers, it could never satisfy my family's needs.

I pretty much agree. I have a buffer tank for the solar /WBS which then feeds my standard twin coil cylinder with constant warmer water than normal and that is where the immersion is sited as in a normal cylinder. If all else fails I use the oil. I do need the oil for the underfloor part of the house and if it is on I can divert to DHW to top that up.

shane0007

freddyuk wrote: »

Read all about it here. Some of these guys are looking to sell the kit to make money.... why would they be biased against it unless they made an informed decision that maybe the money would not be made. Certainly now in the UK without MCS backing it will need to be very good to be accepted as it will not qualify for RHI payments.
http://www.electriciansforums.co.uk/photovoltaic-solar-panels-green-energy-forum/86750-installed-thermodynamic-system-2-year-test.html

Again, this thread is about DHW units only. I am sure I could trawl the internet & find numerous forums, unproven people willing to knock the crap about any technology you wish mention. The internet is a wonderful thing but you cannot take every post or finding as gospel, everything has a warning label.

Geo-thermal heat pumps are an accepted technology by MCS. I posted some time back about somebody I knew that has an electricity bill of €12,000 per year from the unit. Does that mean that if somebody trawling the internet comes across my post & deducts from that that all ego-thermal heat pumps are crap?
No, it means that there is a warning label attached. It can be down to many many factors, poor installation, unsuitable conditions, incorrectly sized, incorrectly commissioned, etc.

freddyuk

shane0007 wrote: »

Forget about that system, it's a heat pump heating DHW & rads. It has nothing to do with the units in this thread. It is thermodynamic but rather than a traditional air to water or ground source heat pump, it is using the thermodynamic roof panels to do everything. IMO, that's asking too much of the technology as it is too much of a load for it.
For example, my own unit which is air to water requires approx 500m3 of air to pass over the heat exchanger to work, so if you limit that, the COP is out the window.
This thread is only about units that are heating DHW only.

As I stated it is a commercial installation. There are domestic all in one systems for domestic hot water and there are bigger systems for commercial systems which need to be separate units but the technology is exactly the same!
But hey let's accept that you are happy with your system.

shane0007

freddyuk wrote: »

But hey let's accept that you are happy with your system.

I am indeed.

John T Carroll

shane0007 wrote: »

Forget about that system, it's a heat pump heating DHW & rads. It has nothing to do with the units in this thread. It is thermodynamic but rather than a traditional air to water or ground source heat pump, it is using the thermodynamic roof panels to do everything. IMO, that's asking too much of the technology as it is too much of a load for it.
For example, my own unit which is air to water requires approx 500m3 of air to pass over the heat exchanger to work, so if you limit that, the COP is out the window.
This thread is only about units that are heating DHW only.

Has anyone considered installing a Flow Meter on the Domestic Hot Water Cylinder and monitoring the actual usage, this could then be added to all the other data and would surely help in a big way in evaluating the system (LVP) in a more meaningful way.

Froststop

John T Carroll wrote: »

Has anyone considered installing a Flow Meter on the Domestic Hot Water Cylinder and monitoring the actual usage, this could then be added to all the other data and would surely help in a big way in evaluating the system (LVP) in a more meaningful way.

We do it to monitor commercial systems before designing and sizing for Thermodynamic or air to water systems.
We have some systems running out on site at present with elec meters fitted and will post here the results in the coming weeks.

freddyuk

Are these commercial or domestic or both? We seem to have some resistance here to discussing the general technology so it has to be specifically domestic.
The companies selling the DHW systems will offer you a whole house system with more panels on the roof if you want it. It simply means a different sized system to cope with higher loads.
Call it commercial if you want but that is what it does. It is not different technology.

Also regarding your previous post about who set this system up .... it was the company selling the kit not "some solar company" so it was supposed to be a flagship installation to show potential trade customers the benefits of the technology.

We have real data from one installation here only (thanks braka) but we know there are others on this forum who have the system but they seem to have evaporated..
Hopefully you can give us some technically sound data which the actual manufacturers can't.

Here are the FAQ's from the main distributors domestic and commercial website: (their spelling errors)

Can the system centraly heat a house?
Yes, it is the main applications of the system.

What direction should the panels be positioned?
Preferably should be directed to south but not so important

How much does each panel weigh?
Approximately 8 kg.

What size is the panel
Each panel measures 80x200cm

How many panels are needed to provide hot water for a family of 5 persons?
For a family of 5 persons, the system normally used will be the ECO300 (300lts) with 1 solar panel.

What temperature can be achieved for baths?
Approximately 55 ºC.

Can it be adapted to existing central heating systems (radiators, convectors or under floor heating)?
Yes ideally convectors, radiant floor, ventilation convectors or radiators (big bore).

Do I need to have a special plumbing installation?
No, your current heating system's plumbing will usually do.

Do the panels have to be installed on the roof?
No, they can also be installed on a terrace, balcony, on the ground, pretty much anywhere outside!

What refrigerant is used?
Two types of gas are used in Energie Solar systems, hot water uses R134a and for the central heating systems and swimming pools we use R407c.

In the event of a leak, is the gas dangerous?
No, they are environmentally friendly and non-toxic gases.

Is it necessary to carry loads of temporary coolant?
No.

Does the ***** Solar system require much maintenance?
No.

How far can the Panels be installed from the thermo accumulator?
The distance can not exceed 15m vertically and/or 30m horizontally.

What is the energy consumption?
It depends on the system in question, but all of our systems consume so little electrical power when compared to the thermal power supplied, for Example: The ECO 300 consumes 390w of electrical power and delivers 1690w of heating power (a power increase factor of 4.33:1)

Do the panels rust?
The panels are aluminium anodised, so corrosion is not an issue.

Can the panels be painted?
Yes but ideally in dark colours.

How do you fix the panels?
The panels can be fixed by the six mounting holes.

What Guarantee does the ***** Solar system come with?
The panels come with a 5 year guarantee and Thermo Accumulator comes with a 2 year guarantee.

Also I note this comment which I think is new -
***** solar’s panels are different. Not relying on sunshine as its sole source of energy, we provide a system that can provide heat for 365 days year, come rain or shine. This is due to the thermo-dynamic principles involved within our new panels. No fragile glass tubes that need replacing, just sleek unobtrusive flat panels collecting heat down to 0°C to heat your hot water or run your central heating.

I have not replaced any tubes in my "fragile" system. It works in any temperature but it seems now that LVP will not work below 0°C. ..then what? I assume the immersion needs to be engaged? It does not actually say how it copes below freezing point.

Another concern I have currently is using stainless cylinders with well water. Having discussed this with the trade I understand it really is a problem for indirect systems. I changed my own system to be direct in the stainless cylinder to try and avoid this. Copper is also susceptible. The cylinders on the LVP kit are guaranteed for 2 years. If you are on well water and your cylinder leaks that is a complete new system not just a replacement cylinder? Should this be highlighted by the suppliers?

focuslfc

Hi all

I am just about to start a new build and was looking at getting the thermodynamic solar panels. The primary heat provider will be oil and we will have a solid fuel stove also.

Will the thermodynamic solar panels meet the part L building regulations?

We will have a heat recovery system and triple glazing. We plan on going for as efficient a house as possible so will have more then the regulated insulation and will be putting in the air tightness membrane and carrying out an air tightness test.

Would it be advisable to have a duel/triple coiled system with the oil and solid fuel?


Any advice would be greatly appreciated in advance

Thanking you in advance.

focuslfc

freddyuk

Another test of the Thermodynamic system with real time results.
http://www.narecde.co.uk/thermodynamic-panel-data/

shane0007

freddyuk wrote: »

Another test of the Thermodynamic system with real time results.
http://www.narecde.co.uk/thermodynamic-panel-data/

It doesn't make sense. Why are they using the immersion all the time? What is the volume of hot water used each day?

All I know is mine has cost me €11.19 so far for the month of February which is just under €0.51 per day. The weather has been cold & I have no back heat source.

I understand mine is not a thermodynamic but I assume they are running fairly similarly.

John T Carroll

shane0007 wrote: »

It doesn't make sense. Why are they using the immersion all the time? What is the volume of hot water used each day?

All I know is mine has cost me €11.19 so far for the month of January which is just under €0.51 per day. The weather has been cold & I have no back heat source.

I understand mine is not a thermodynamic but I assume they are running fairly similarly.

As I understand it the "normal" air to water heat pump will have a fan blowing air through the evaporator (heat sink) so its possible to have a large air volume with a low delta T, hence higher evaporation temperatures which means a greater COP. The "thermodynamic" panel on the other hand will probably run with a much lower temperature especially when not "solar power" assisted, ie at night or in the colder winter months?.

shane0007

That makes sense alright.

dathi

shane0007 wrote: »

I understand mine is not a thermodynamic but I assume they are running fairly similarly.

shane if you already know that your system is not one of the non certified "thermodynamic" systems why do you keep muddying the waters by posting costs from your system which is an independently certified system .most posters opposition to the "thermodynamic"system on the market in ireland is that it is not independently certified and the manufacturers refuse to give any detailed information.

shane0007

dathi wrote: »

shane if you already know that your system is not one of the non certified "thermodynamic" systems why do you keep muddying the waters by posting costs from your system which is an independently certified system .most posters opposition to the "thermodynamic"system on the market in ireland is that it is not independently certified and the manufacturers refuse to give any detailed information.

I agree somewhat, however, whether they are certified or not, Braka's figures if true are real & the systems are very similar to a standard air to water heat pump, the only difference is the source.
I dislike an all out unproven attack on a technology if it has a true place in the market. If thermodynamic is proven to be crap, then I will be on your side all the way. I was one of those doubters until I installed my air to water.

I did not want to start a new thread on the NUOS in case it was perceived as promoting the NUOS, so adding to the thermodynamic thread, based on their similarities was my incentive. I was very nervous of the NUOS when I installed it. I researched as much as possibly could, liked what I saw, but still had an enormous doubt in the back of my mind. The performance & running cost eliminated those doubts. And this being another reason why I don't wish to rush out & diss the LVP system.

If you would prefer me not to post about the results and further information on the NUOS within this thread, I will of course respect that. There was and is no alterior motive other than as I described.

dathi

sorry shane must have got out of bed on the wrong side today the information on your nuos heat pump is useful for comparison as long as people are aware that it is a different system to lvp . as to the tests run by narecede they are trying to amass independent data because "thermodynamic" systems have been removed from the english grants system. the results so far from them seem to indicate that the cop varies from 1.1 to 2 on good days and on days when they used only the immersion as a comparison they got a cop of 0.98 so a lot of money for a system that is 0.12 better than an immersion. but who knows if they keep testing over a full year these figures might improve as the solar contribution increases

freddyuk

shane0007 wrote: »

It doesn't make sense. Why are they using the immersion all the time? What is the volume of hot water used each day?

All I know is mine has cost me €11.19 so far for the month of February which is just under €0.51 per day. The weather has been cold & I have no back heat source.

I understand mine is not a thermodynamic but I assume they are running fairly similarly.

If you read the information given it clearly states the reason for running the immersion is to test the heat loss from the cylinder only. It is for 2 days only to achieve this baseline number. This has the effect of actually increasing the COP of the system so I would like to think this will be a reasonable test.
I need to find out how they account for daily usage within the test results.

shane0007

If this turns out to be true, it will be an awful predicament for homeowners who have them. What a waste of money if it's a glorified immersion.
It would be interesting to know how much hot water Braka is actually using. I know this has been requested. Is it low, average or high? I know my own is high with the number of power showers & baths going everyday. We also have a lot of animals & their feeders are washed daily also. And when I say a lot, it's bordering on a flamin' zoo.
If I can pick up a 3/4" meter, I will install it to give a very accurate usage figure to compare the running costs with.

dathi

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Water-Flow-Meter-Hot-or-Cold-Water-With-Connectors-/251347196397?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Test_Measurement_Equipment_ET&var=&hash=item3a8575d9ed
how about something like this on the water inlet of the cylinder you could read a monthly usage

shane0007

dathi wrote: »

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Water-Flow-Meter-Hot-or-Cold-Water-With-Connectors-/251347196397?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Test_Measurement_Equipment_ET&var=&hash=item3a8575d9ed
how about something like this on the water inlet of the cylinder you could read a monthly usage

I actually had looked them up on eBay last night. Not badly priced so I might order a 3/4" one for the cold feed to the cylinder.

braka

shane0007 wrote: »

If this turns out to be true, it will be an awful predicament for homeowners who have them. What a waste of money if it's a glorified immersion.
It would be interesting to know how much hot water Braka is actually using. I know this has been requested. Is it low, average or high? I know my own is high with the number of power showers & baths going everyday. We also have a lot of animals & their feeders are washed daily also. And when I say a lot, it's bordering on a flamin' zoo.
If I can pick up a 3/4" meter, I will install it to give a very accurate usage figure to compare the running costs with.

Attached are the latest figures from my Energie Thermodynamic system.
No problems with the system so far (TG!) and no complaints. New grandchild means parents now staying over more often and lots of washing bottles etc. etc. also washing machine used more often.
Washing machine has a hot water inlet as well as a cold one.
Weekends has the college students home and they keep themselves well washed!
Average no. of people in the house at the moment would be 4.

Interesting debate on this issue....keep the opinions and info coming in and then we can all learn as to whats possible with the technologies that are constantly being developed.

John T Carroll

Very interesting Braka but please get that Flowmeter fitted. You would appear to be using around 4 Kwh/Day for water heating. If a an ordinary electric immersion was fitted and assuming that the hot water is being used at 45C then the output would be, (4X860/(45-10), say 98 Ltrs/Day....depending on the unit's COP then of course the output will be far higher, ie COP of 2 = 196 Ltrs/day, COP of 3 = 294 Ltrs/day and so on. The minimum COP would have to be approaching 2 (1.9) if comparing hot water produced in an oil fired boiler at 85% efficiency and an oil price of €0.85/Litre or €0.08/Kwh which is €0.094/Kwh of hot water. Thanks again for the spreadsheet info.

The devils

Sorry for delay in getting back , had issues with logging onto site for ages..

This is my first time to attach an excel sheet, so here goes.

Attached is the last 4 months of data, not muck but something..system working fine, no flowmeter attached.

Showers and baths usually at night , average 16 showers and 3 baths per week.

John T Carroll

Its definitely very pleasing to see that you are getting all your hot water requirements for (from the S.Sheet) an average of 2.98 Kwh/day since last October. I did a rough calculation based on number of showers/baths and came up with a figure of hot water usage of 257 Ltrs/day at 40C, which is 171 ltrs/day of cylinder hot water at 55C (diluted with 86 ltrs at 10C). This gives an excellent COP of almost 3.7. Obviously, I had to make alot of assumptions but whatever way one looks at it, it is truly remarkable to get all your hot water heating needs for less than 3 Kwh/day.
I dont know how much time you devote to monitoring your system but a very useful pointer to your real COP woud be to monitor the temperature rise in the cylinder (with no draw off) over say, a 15 minute period, and over the same period, the Kwh from the energy monitor, its quite easy then to calculate the COP for that particular period.
Should also have asked if the Suppy and Exhaust air are ducted in/out to the unit?.

Got mixed up with your system, the Eco 250ESM, with the Nuos FSi 250, so NO air in or out as you have a roof mounted panel.

The devils

John, thanks for the reply.
I have eco 250 Esm.
The shower I use is pumped and uses 8 litres per/min. I generally use it for 4 to 5 mins, and my wife uses approx 10 to 15 mins, not sure how much for bath.

To check the temperature rise is a little difficult because the temp display has no decimal place , eg. 51 degrees not 51.22 degrees so not sure over 15 mins. What I might do is, time it exactly when for example it changes to eg. 52 degrees and wait until it changes to 53 degrees ?
My roof panel is approx 10 to 11 meters from compressor.

Talk soon...

John T Carroll

The devils wrote: »

John, thanks for the reply.
I have eco 250 Esm.
The shower I use is pumped and uses 8 litres per/min. I generally use it for 4 to 5 mins, and my wife uses approx 10 to 15 mins, not sure how much for bath.

To check the temperature rise is a little difficult because the temp display has no decimal place , eg. 51 degrees not 51.22 degrees so not sure over 15 mins. What I might do is, time it exactly when for example it changes to eg. 52 degrees and wait until it changes to 53 degrees ?
My roof panel is approx 10 to 11 meters from compressor.

Talk soon...

My calcs were very close to your usage....I also added an extra 40 Ltrs/day for wash basins etc., however all this is still a estimation in lots of ways.

See attachment for suggested COP testing...John

opus

I'm getting a little bit of work done on an old house in Cork city centre, the basic stuff of a new gas boiler & plenty insulation. As it has a south facing unobstructed roof, figured solar panels would be a good idea. The builder has suggested the LVP panels as an option as well so having had a good read through this thread & seeing some people are very happy I'm still not sure which way to go.

What I'd like is enough hot water to handle at least two showers a day from a power shower along with the normal hands/dishes etc, if possible without firing up the gas during the Summer months.

Will have a chat with my engineer next week, according to the builder the LVP option would be a little cheaper so not really sure which way to go.

Any opinion positive or negative are most welcome!